On Jun 12, 2:23*pm, Dogman wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:22:39 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Jun 12, 12:19*pm, Dogman wrote:

There's no guarantee that any other cohort of 32 men would even
experience that "slim benefit," and you're totally ignoring the many
risk factors from taking these drugs, which include DEATH.

As usual, you're wandering of course here and
trying to confuse the issue.

Actually, I'm just trying to illustrate all the facts that you're
trying to suppress, or minimize.

By all means, if you think these are good odds, then just
automatically take the drugs. Don't try anything else first.

There you go again. *I never said anything about not trying
anything else first.

Then why are you gnawing on my ankles again???

Because that's all I'm saying here, and that's all Dr. Briffa is
saying!

One more time. Dr. Briffa did an analysis where he
claimed that you have to treat 32 men in order to avoid
one stroke in 5 years. He then called the benefit of
avoiding one stroke in 5 years a "slim benefit".

I think anyone that says avoiding one stroke in 32
men over a 5 year period is a "slim benefit",
is shockingly off target. So. I think anyone evaluating
what else this guy has to say should take that into
consideration. Ask yourself this simple question:

Do I want to be listening to a doctor that says
avoiding one stroke among 32 men in 5 years is
a slim benefit?

I sure wouldn't take anything else he says seriously,
because the above is a very, very strange viewpoint.



Along with many other doctors and scientists.

Yes, of course there is, because it's a lucrative business, but
they
all come with pretty much the same package of side effects, one of
which is DEATH.

Oh please. *More scare tactic nonsense.

To mention the many risk factors from taking these drugs is
"nonsense"?

It is when you blow them all out of proportion and
capitalize the word DEATH.

I'm not blowing them out of proportion, I'm just restoring them to
their rightful place. Only morons ignore side effects of drugs (and
all drugs have them!).

And the word DEATH should get even your attention.

Nah, probably not.


It's rather amazing. Using the doctors own numbers,
avoiding one stroke among 32 men in 5 years is a
slim benefit. But we're supposed to get all worked
up over DEATH as a possible side effect of a
blood pressure medication? What do you think the
death rate among those 32 men from that stroke is?
I guarantee you it's orders of magnitude higher than
the risk of death from a blood pressure medication.
BP medications are among the most widely used,
well tolerated medicines out there. And they have
been proven to work very well.

They've even been proven to work by the doctor's
own data. Yet he calls avoiding one stroke in 32
men in 5 years a "slim benefit".

And the BP medicines that are going to have the
most side effects are also likely the ones that are
needed by patients with very high blood pressure.
That is when your BP is 200+, you may need the
ones with more serious side effects, but at the
same time, your risk of stroke, heart attack, death,
etc from the high BP is still orders of magnitude
greater.




Not necessarily, because until one learns WHY he or she has BP that
high, simply taking a drug for it may not help solve the underlying
REASON(S) for it.

With most cases of hypertension, there is no known underlying
reason. *In some cases it's secondary to another disease. *We
do know there are some steps that can be taken by people with
hypertension that can help, eg keep their weight under control,
excercise. *I'm not suggesting that isn't a good idea.

That's exactly what you're doing, because that's all I'm saying!
That's all that Dr. Briffa is saying!

Again, you seem to have a problem here. *This
has happened many times now. *I take issue with
one specific part of something that some "expert"
has said. * You then somehow try to twist that into
something totally different. *In this case, I specifically
stated that IMO, Dr. Briffa is an idiot because he
thinks avoiding one stroke in 32 men over 5 years
is a slim benefit. *I think that's a huge benefit.

Most people wouldn't think it's a "huge benefit" if the side effects
of taking the drugs can also result in DEATH, among a long list of
life-long, debilitating effects.

The side effect of most drugs includes possible death.
So what? It occurs in such a tiny percentage that
compared to the benefit, the benefit is worth it.
Except of course to those that think avoiding one
stroke in 32 men over 5 years is a "slim benefit".



And only some moron like you would call them "idiots."

Now, instead of staying on the point, you claim I'm
advocating people not try to lower their blood pressure
first by losing weight, exercise, etc.

That's pretty much what you were doing, otherwise there would have
been no need to reply.

QED.

You clearly have a problem with anyone who makes
any kind of comment regarding even a part of the
stuff you post. All I pointed out was that the doctor
considers preventing one stroke among a group of 32
patients a slim benefit.




Try diet, try nutrition, try lifestyle changes, before getting on the
drug train!

Great idea and everyone agrees it's good advice.

Good! *That's progress!

How well is that working in practice?

How well does anyone know without trying it?

Lame. It's being tried all the time.



But I think it works well for the vast majority of people who try it,
and then stick to it.

That's a big help. And how about the fact that it's been
shown that the vast majority of people can't stick with
any diet or significant lifestyle changes?





Hypertension can also run in families, and may be absolutely nothing
to worry about.

I'm sure we'd all like to see the study that supports
that conclusion.


If everyone in a family has elevated BP, but live
average lives, don't have strokes or heart attacks, why would you
necessarily want to lower it in the first place,

Study please to show that this pure speculation
exists. Otherwise, it's just a strawman.





especially after
considering that artificailly doing so may cause DEATH and other
life-long debilitating effects?

Do you realize that if you have a headache and take some
aspirin there is a risk of DEATH?





Some families have abnormally high (or extremely low) levels of
cholesterol, too, but most of them lead normal lives, with normal
life-spans.

Study please.