On Aug 14, 12:27Â*pm, Who_me? wrote:
On 14/08/11 11:04 PM, wrote:

Atkins is widely known, and widely disputed, pilloried and slammed by not
just people like me but by the medical profession - Atkins peers - by
research organisations like Harvard, by Government bodies, by nutritionists
and media. It always has been, right from his very first book release. If
you aren't aware of that then you must be living in a cave.

I know there are plenty of Atkins bashers out there, including
you. But it is you who is living in a cave, because the same
people bashing Atkins say similar things about your boy
Dukan and his diet:

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/shows/newy...118457184.html
Sounds a little gimmicky, what are critics saying?

France’s governmental National Agency for Food, Environmental and Work
Health Safety has identified it as one of 15 imbalanced and
potentially risky diets, and the British Dietetic Association branded
it one of the five worst diets of 2011.

http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/d...-review?page=2

The Dukan Diet: What the Experts Say
You'll certainly lose weight on The Dukan Diet because it cuts
calories drastically. The lack of carbs also helps keep hunger at bay.
But the bottom line, experts say, is that this eating plan does not
include all the nutrients you need for good health.

"A once-daily multivitamin will not compensate for the nutritional
goodness from fruits, whole grains and healthy fats that are
inadequate in The Dukan Diet," says Keri Gans, MS, RD, a spokesperson
for the American Dietetic Association.

She points out the health hazards of restrictive dieting. “When
dieters start losing weight rapidly, I worry they will continue the
restrictive phases longer than advised -- which puts them at risk for
nutrient deficiencies and kidney problems," says Gans.

Losing more than 1-2 pounds per week can promote gallstones and muscle
loss, she says: "It is unhealthy to lose weight so quickly because
you not only lose fat and fluids but precious muscle mass, which is
really hard to replace, especially as you get older."

Constipation, bad breath, dry mouth, and fatigue should be a red flag
that this is not a healthy diet, she says."





That may be true for some people. Â*For others, trying to just cut
back on carbs that way, without following the Atkins plan starting
with induction, will
lead to hunger, cravings and failure with the diet. Â* Snobs like
you then look down on those people as failures due to lack
of willpower. Â* Why, it worked for me.... Â*Anyone for who that
doesn't work is just a weak person.

Yep. That is EXACTLY what I think. Many people are weak willed. Even people
who I love and care about number among them. My approach is to work on that
will, not take away the temptation with diets that kill appetite. Why not
have your taste buds lasered off?

You really are an elitist snob aren't you? Must be nice to be you.
You fail to acknowledge there are a lot of people who's bodies
respond differently, who have different genetics, where if
they ate what you did they would feel hungry all the time and
hence be driven to eat. Hunger is one of the most powerful
forces in the body. Even scientists today do not understand
exactly what drives it and there is continuing research to
understand it. You, on the other hand, know it all and just
look down at those folks as being weak. You know
so much that you claim genetics does not play a role in
obesity. Talk about living in a cave, that is a classic.

Note that I'm not saying that's what's responsible for all
obesity. But to deny that a diet that greatly reduces
hunger is not an advantage because it's not needed is
just nuts. Apparently, it isn't enough for people to
just lose weight. They have to do it YOUR way and
you prefer they suffer as much as possible. Are
you a sadist?






Also if that's sufficient and healthy, why does the Dukan diet,
which you endorse and claim is essentially what you do,
start as PURE PROTEIN?

Because it doesn't stay that way, and it varies during the week.



Again, as BlueBrooke said, it's clear you don't even
understand Atkins. I'd add to that list the Dukan diet
which you are advocating. First, if you understood Atkins
you would know that it doesn't stay that way either.
Second, from what I can see online, the Dukan diet
does not vary during the attack phase either. It in
fact consists of almost pure protein:

Allowed Foods
â–*Lean beef, veal or rabbit (mince under 10%, avoid ribs)
â–*Chicken and turkey (except skin and outside part of the wings)
â–*Ham (low fat and lean)
â–*Beef, veal, or chicken liver
â–*Any fish (except canned in oil or sauce)
â–*Shellfish and crustaceans
â–*Eggs (up to two per day, unlimited egg whites but watch the yolks if
you have high cholesterol)
â–*Dairy products (low fat, below 5% fat)
â–*Sweeteners (except fructose based), vinegar, mustard, spices, herbs,
garlic, onion (as spice), lemon juice (only as spice, not for
drinking), sugar free natural ketchup (in moderation), sugar free
chewing gum

And guess what else they say:

"Another common problem is bad breath, although at the same time it
can be read as a sign of success as it indicates your body is in
ketosis. Again drinking water can help, as well as chewing sugar free
gum."

Got that genius? It says KETOSIS. Which of course is
what everyone would expect with a zero carb, high protein
diet. Yet, like a true troll, you come in here claiming that
the Atkins diet is dangerous for precisely the same reasons.
Why, your kidneys are gonna be damaged! What utter
lies and BS.




There is, and Atkins had to fight it. The Atkins group's response was that
the damage already existed and that the diet only exacerbated it, it didn't
cause it. That is true, but no overweight adult has perfect kidney
function, so in effect that response is disingenuous.

Kindly provide us with a reference for that ridiculous statement.
Should be easy to do. Show us a study that shows that no
overweight adult has perfect kidney function.





"Phase 1 - ATTACK
Â* The Attack phase consists of pure protein and creates a kick-start
to
the diet. During this phase, you can eat 68 high-protein foods that
produce immediate and noticeable weight loss."

So, as I asked before, what the hell is up with that? Â*You're
here advocating a diet which starts out with PURE PROTEIN.

I am not advocating it. I simply noted that the ongoing diet, the
stabilisation stage is nearly identical to my own. I have not tried it,
though I have read copies of all the books - even the original French.


First, you did NOT say that the ongoing Dukan diet is nearly
identical to your own. You just said the Dukan diet. I would
suspect that the ongoing phase of the Dukan diet is very
similar to Atkins. So, once again, you're twisting and
turning.



Atkins starts out with unlimited protein and fat and 20g a day
Â* of carbs. Â*So, how can Atkins be causing kidney damage,
while Dukan is not?

It is the duration. Read more about Dukan.

Dukan even says the diet is similar to Atkins. Where is the
part where Dukan says Atkins causes kidney disease and
his diet, which is similar, but actually starts at ZERO carbs
and pure protein, does not. You're the guy claiming to be
the Dukan expert, you provide it.






Also, Atkins WAS fat when he died, there had been a degree of controversy
when photos showing him to be overweight surfaced in the months before he
died. Â*Not so unusual - have you seen the fat photos of Jenny Craig?

Just like Doug thought, here we go with more lies about Atkins.
I saw Atkins many times on TV over the years. Â* He was never
obese. Â*He always looked good. Â* He admitted that like many of
us he put on an additional 10 or 15 lbs at times. Â*When he did
he'd restart induction and take it off.

The lies about him being overweight are based on his weight
at death after having been hospitalized, experiencing organ
failure, accumulating fluid and dying. Â* Trolls like to try to spin
Â* that into a slam against the Atkins diet. Â* Hello troll.

Do you take gullibility pills? If that was the case, why don't all corpses
of people who die after hospitalisation gain weight over their initial weight?

Many of them do. In particular those in a coma with organ
failure over weeks. Only an idiot would expect that there
be a requirement for all patients who die in hospital to gain
weight for it to be true that others, depending on their
illness, will.





The controversy started BEFORE he died, before he went into hospital after
a photo of him was circulated showing a huge weight gain. The Atkins group
claim that it was a Photoshopped image. Maybe it was, but his autopsy
photos weren't.



Then explain how the hospital records show hiss weight being
around 190 when he entered the hospital. He was around
6 ft tall, so where is this huge weight?







Why do you ignore research that challenges Atkins. Research such as the
tests on huge increases in methylglyoxal levels in people who are in
ketosis? Those increased levels do damage to blood vessels and to nerve
tissue.

Most research in Atkins concludes that low carb increases health, but not
when low enough to cause ketosis.

Show us that research. I've seen studies where they followed
people who were doing Atkins per the book for 6 months and
the results were all positive. PS, their kidneys didn't malfunction.




Why does the American Heart Association warn that Atkins style diets
increase the risk of heart disease?

Because they are anti-fat. You told us you're peachy keen
with high fat and that's how you eat. So, what they have to
say about Atkins goes for you too. You really must be a
troll to even bring this up.




You claim to have a library full of books on dieting and health.
You even claim to have one by Gary Taubes. Â*Funny though,
when Billy suggested you read one of Taubes works
you replied "Not interested, as everyone has their version of
what is good or bad. " Â* Now call me crazy, but I would think
a person that knew who Taubes was and had his book
would have replied "I've read Taubes and...." Â* So, I call BS
on you again.

You can call all you like, in fact sing and yodel if that pleases you. Gary
Taubes is just one among several hundred, and did not rate highly with me..
Not because it was so bad, but because it was all old hat. there are only a
few that I rank highly, either for good value and real reporting of proper
research, or for nonsense and distortion and wild claims.



Funny how you got caught, isn't it? Claiming to have Taubes book,
but when Billy brought up a Taubes work you just say, not interested,
don't care. A person who really had a Taubes book and knew who
he was would clearly have said, "I have his book, I've read it,
and...."
Liar.





About the only thing I do believe is that you may write
articles for the mainstream media. Â* I believe that because
the lies, distortion and ignorance that you have demonstrated
here regarding LC and Atkins in particular is very typical in
Â* the media.

Atkins did a lot distortion of facts, he didn't invent the diet, he tried
it in order to manage his own weight, was initially successful and wrote a
book about it.

There you go again. As far as distortion, it's you who is
continuing to do that. Actually he did invent the specific Atkins
diet,
with the 4 phases, the two weeks of induction, etc. He never
hid the fact that he did not invent LC.

What did your boy Dukan do? He has a plan very similar
to Atkins, it even has the 4 phases. Like Atkins it starts
you off in ketosis, likely because Dukan understands what
you do not. It's a huge plus because it sharply curtails
hunger. You, on the other hand, demand that people
suffer hunger pangs, do it your way. If they fail, why
then they are just weak.




BTW, if Atkins is still as popular as you claim, why did the Atkins group
file for bankruptcy protection six years ago? They claimed at the time that
the diet and the sale of products relating to it had fallen to almost zero.
In your world are they are wrong too?

Unbelievable. Perhaps you missed it, but about 10 years
ago there was a big frenzy of interest in LC where
suddenly many more people decided to try it. The Atkins
company responded to that demand with a variety of
products. So did many other companies. IF you knew
as much as you claim, you would never bring up this
foolish point. Just go into any food store and there is
but a fraction of the LC products today that were
available back then. That is a reflection on LC in
general, not Atkins specifically. How many people
are doing LC today, of any kind? Not many.
Hence, many of those companies failed. Simple.





I know a lot of people who are eating some variation of a low carb diet, I
don't know any who are still using Atkins. That seemd to die out several
years ago. There are lots of healthier options that are just as effective..
Dukan is just one of them. The Dukan diet is not new, it has been around
since the eighties, it is just new outside France.- Hide quoted text -


And then the ass brings up the Dukan diet again. So, one more
time, the Dukan diet starts you off at ZERO carbs. It starts you
off at PURE protein. It puts you in ketosis. It has 4 phases,
just like Atkins, where you introduce more vegetables, fruits
over time. Yet, Dukan is a
healthy diet, but Atkins is dangerous and sure to cause kidney
damage?. Again I ask, are you just stupid or a troll? Or is it
that you did not even really understand what the Dukan diet was
about and now, when proven that it is more radical than
Atkins, you're caught, left twisting, turning in the wind.