On May 28, 9:39*pm, Doug Freyburger wrote:
Dogman wrote:
" wrote:

Because the diet of post bariatric patients is NOT a
fat fast.

For the second time, Doug never said it was. He said a fat fast may be
enough to affect certain metabolic changes that would negate the need
for bariatric surgery.

He didn't say the POST-BARIATRIC DIET IS A FAT FAST.

The beginning point of the post-bariatric diet is on the order of 1000
calories so roughly similar to the original fat fast experiment in that
sense. *It's closer to the 90% protein experimental group than to the
90% fat or 90% carb experimental groups. *It does not match any of them..
*It is similar in number of calories to all three groups.

The sole issue was Doug trying to attribute
the mysterious effects seen in these patients to a LC
diet. *Which is wrong.

Doug, being of sound mind, wasn't attributing anything, he was
suggesting that there's nothing mysterious about it, that diet alone
can produce the same effects in most people, and without undergoing
dangerous surgery.

But I'll defer to Doug on that.

Feed a patient the post-bariatric diet without the surgery and see. *I
suggest it is very likely the results will be close.

There isn't just one post-bariatric diet. In the
first weeks after surgery when these bariatric patients
are on a very calorie restricted liquid diet. Somewhere around
600 calories a day. Yes, that could have an effect
on the disappearance of diabetes in 80% of the patients.
But they have followed patients for a DECADE after
surgery and the diabetes does not return. So they
have returned to a diet that is probably 2500 calories a
day. A reasonable assumption, probably at the lower
end actually. Typically these patients do not achieve
normal weight. They go from morbidly obese to mildly
obese or overweight, so they could easily be eating
more than 2500 calories.


We all know that people are going to return to eating
what they like, within the limits their surgery permits.
And there isn't anything I'm aware of in these patients
long term diets that says it has to be LC.
Given that whatever is ocurring is
still there at 10 years, I don't think the balance of evidence
supports that this reversal in diabetes is due to LC.



Speculation - The stomach produces ghrelin. *The surgery reduces the
ghrelin produced by the stomach. *Part of obesity is an imbalance in
hormones produced. *Perhaps the post-surgery effects can't be reporduced
with diet alone. *But I am unaware of a group fed the poost-surgery diet
as a control group.

They have done experiments on rats with diabetes. Rats
that were normal weight. The diabetes disappeared within
a couple days of the bypass surgery. I didn't look at the actual
study
to see what diets they were fed, the control group, etc. But
one would think that they probably did feed the rats the
same diets.