On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:24:38 +0200, "Lictor"
wrote:

"Concordia" wrote in message
.. .
Really? Ever heard of a basal metabolism test? In any case, someone
not knowing their precise current metabolism does not prevent them
from eating less and losing weight.

Isn't renting a man sized calorimeter for a day a bit expensive?

One can go and get a test done. A university affiliated hospital
would be a good place to start. Your premise was that it is rather
hard to know what the metabolism is. I provided an example of how one
could find out.

Besides, it
will only give you a value for that day, that's pretty useless. And that
would be a pretty useless value anyway,

Not really. A test would aid in ruling out hypothyroidism (not
common) and also put to rest any concerns that the metabolism is
generally low. A complaint by many obese is that metabolism is
sluggish and that is why they cannot lose weight. This has been
proven time and time again not to be the case, both through metabolic
tests and also by controlled conditions where the patient is
hospitalized and put on a medically supervised diet. There are the
occasional exceptions, but not enough to be significant in accounting
for overweight in general.

Also, if one were to have a basal metabolism test performed bi-weekly
or monthly over a statistically significant period of time, and graph
the results, metabolism would not generally be all over the place.
There would be a somewhat of a distribution of results assuming one
stayed at a similar weight and activity level. Do you dispute this?

it's not like you would have any
reliable data to use to match your food with it, calorie tables are all but reliable...

Sure, I don't doubt that calorie tables may be inaccurate to some nth
degree of precision. But that certainly does not rule out _any_ value
they may have in providing a basis about what and how much to eat.
Thanks to calorie tables, it's pretty clear that a pound of sausage
has more calories than a pound of salmon.

Trying to match a complex biological process with elementary school
mathematics is not going to bring you anywhere. It's like a T1 diabetic
trying to mimick a pancreas with his insulin shoots, it's close to
impossible to get a perfect match.

A perfect match is not necessary short-term. It is a long-term
attempt at a match or deficit that matters. You obviously understand
this concept, and have alluded to it below when suggesting "regulated"
people self-correct overeating by subsequently eating less to make up
for it (which I somewhat disagree with).

The mecanism that regulates that in normal people is just broken,
for psychological or physical reasons, in obese people.

Before we go any further in this discussion, define these mechanisms.

As a regulated person, if you eat as much as you feel like, your weight
remains stable. If for some reason you eat too much and gain weight, you
will feel less hungry and get satiated sooner, until you snap back to your
set weight. All this without feeling any hunger, since hunger *is* the
regulation system. So, a normal well regulated person does not have to work
at keeping a constant weight.
On the other hand, many obeses, for one reason or another, are unable to do
that.

There seem to be very few of these naturally thin "regulated" people
floating around in the states. I've heard that this may differ a bit
in France (does it really?). If so, what do you attribute the
difference to? Almost without exception, even the thin folks here
have to watch what they eat.

As a normal person,
you have don't even have to think about losing weight,

You're making an assumption here that I've never been overweight.
This is not the case.

So, how did you lose your weight?

I initially eliminated a significant amount of carbs by following
Atkins induction, then gradually reintroduced complex carbs in the
form of vegetables and the occasional fruits as I went along. I also
began lifting weights regularly and swimming laps -- and find these to
be rewarding and enjoyable activities.

Today, I do not follow Atkins, but still generally watch starches and
processed foods in general. The primary basis of my diet is lots of
fresh vegetables and meats (fowl, seafood, red meat), with some fruits
and nuts as snacks. I occasionally have a glass of red wine or a
martini with or after dinner.

I also cook a lot and also grow some of my own vegetables and herbs.

Was it easy or effortless?

It was initially extremely difficult, but gradually became much easier
over time.

And for how long have you maintained?

A few years now.

Are you positive you will be able to maintain for
life?

Sure, it is up to me. Last year, I hurt an ankle and was still able
to keep from gaining weight.

Did you ever suffer from eating disorders or were you just the average
over-eater?

I used to binge eat at least a couple of times a week and could wolf
down an entire large pizza (and much more) in one sitting easily. I
also overate in general on a fairly consistent basis. At the time, I
rationalized it somewhat and wasn't completely honest with myself
about what I was doing or the calories consumed.

This can make a world of difference... Also, are you aware of
how normal regulated people eat?

Again, I just don't buy your premise that there are many of these
"well regulated" slim people running around that have never had to
give a conscious thought to what they eat. This is not what I am
seeing in the states. What are you observing in France? How many of
these folks do you see percentage wise and how do they eat?

The fact that to you losing weight was effortless

Not the case; see above.

doesn't mean it is the
case for everyone. For most obeses, it isn't. On the other hand, maintening
a constant weight *is* effortless for well regulated slim people.

I don't think it is effortless for the vast majority of people. Most
of the "naturally" thin people I know will tell you (if they are
honest) that they will occasionally pass on dessert and second
helpings, _consciously_ decide to have a light dinner if they ate a
lot for lunch, etc. What's funny is now that I am thin, people
occasionally comment on what and how they seem to think I can get away
with eating, based on their limited observation. Especially other
women. People see what they want to see.

I don't doubt that there are some folks out there that absolutely
never have to consciously watch what they eat. It just seems rare
based on my observations and honest discussions with other people.

(snip)
Again, are you familliar with binge eating?

See my answer above.

Do you know how it feels to wake
up in the morning only to discover you have raided the fridge while you were
"sleeping"? Do you know how it feels to black out and return to reason with
9000 calories worth of food in your belly?

How many folks out there percentage wise do you seriously think eat
while they are sleepwalking?

(snip)
No, they told them "here is a cure for you", and people believed them.

Please be more specific. What cures are you referring to?

The low fat diet.

Won't work unless calories and portions are controlled. No diet will.
This is common sense. If someone really thinks they can sit around
and eat excessive portions of a bunch of low fat junk food, they are a
victim of their own stupidity. The truth is out there and has been
out there for quite some time.

The FDA pyramid.

The pyramid recommends way too many starches and is also an
oversimplistic model -- I've always thought that.

The balanced diet.
The low carb diet
(which will probably become official sooner or later).

I actually eat a fairly low carb diet, and it seems to work fairly
well. But I don't buy that low carb somehow magically permits people
to consume an unlimited amount of calories. And I've had the common
sense to know that since I was an adolescent and first heard of LC.

What I'm seeing here in the states is that this LC "lifestyle" is
going much the way of the low fat craze. There's a bunch of processed
foods on the market now and people are overeating them. Folks are
always looking for the quick fix, and marketers depend on it.

People are duped because they play mind games with themselves and
choose to believe what they want to believe. That is PRECISELY why I
am advocating the crucial role of personal responsibility in all this.
As I've stated before, if someone chooses to stay fat, that's fine.
Just don't try and place the blame elsewhere.

(snip)
Please list some of the specific foods you are talking about.

Margarine, which was advertised as healthy food.

That is a good point about the trans fats. However, I don't think it
was part of some great conspiracy or marketing ploy, but rather due to
the information currently available at the time. Folks used to think
the earth was flat...

The labeling could still be improved in some cases when it comes to
the whole hydrogenated/partially hydrogenated issue.

Low fat (whatever), which a
lot of doctors tell you is better than regular options. Protein powders that
a lot of of dietitians will actually tell you to use...

The human being is not a
machine. Knowing something and rationnally reacting to it is not
something we do easily.

Well, duh. That in no way negates taking responsibility for our own
wellbeing, instead of trying to place blame elsewhere.

We're talking about an epidemia here, how you or I handle our particular
problem is actually pretty irrelevant. When dealing with an epidemia, you do
*have* to take into account psychological issue if they play any significant
role in the statistics. In that case, they play an enormous role.

I don't dispute at all that there is a psychological component. In
fact, I think it is a rather significant factor in overeating.

Besides, it might have helped if nutritionists and governemnt had *said*
that simple fact. But they didn't. They blamed obesity on pretty much
everything, except excess calories.

Nonsense. The majority of mainstream nutritionists have always taken
a position that calories matter. So has the government (here).

When did the FDA create their pyramid then? Why the campain about cutting
fats? Why do most diabete or likewise official documents recommend cutting
fats? If calories are all that matter, why don't they just write it down?

It has been written down -- time and time again. People just don't
want to listen; they are looking for quick fixes.

Lack of exercise doesn't make people obese.

In and of itself, it does not. But it certainly helps in weight loss
and maintenance. As I mentioned before, weight training is
particularly beneficial in building and maintaining muscle mass.

I know. It does help you after you lost weight. But it didn't make you gain
weight in the first place. There are plenty of slim people with barely
enough muscles to move from the couch to the bed.

Do you understand the role of lean muscle mass in metabolism, or do I
need to spell it out for you?

I do understand it, except I don't see the point.

Adding lean muscle mass increases metabolism.

(snip)
No , I don't believe people have free will when they have to go through a
bunch of misinformation and conditionning. Conditionning is especially bad,
since you're usually not even aware of it.

Learned helplessness never helped anyone improve their circumstances.

(snip)
So, I'm trying something else. Seems to work so far, and at least it doesn't
make my life miserable.

How are you eating and what are your particular circumstances?

- and it means hard work.

Lol, didn't I just mention hard work above?

So, obeses should work a lot harder than normal people, just to achieve
equality with them at something normal people do not even have to think
about...

Life's tough. We all have our problems. Usually, we can only solve
our own problems.