"Lictor" wrote in message ...
"Concordia" wrote in message
...
Really? Ever heard of a basal metabolism test? In any case, someone
not knowing their precise current metabolism does not prevent them
from eating less and losing weight.

Isn't renting a man sized calorimeter for a day a bit expensive? Besides, it
will only give you a value for that day, that's pretty useless.

You don't need one. Select a number of calories to eat per day. Your
bodyweight in pounds * 12 is a good start. Then eat that many calories
a day. If you lose weight at aroudn 1-2 pounds a week then you know
it's the right number. If you don't lose weight then decrease the
number by 500. If you're losing weight too fast then increase the
number until you're losing it at a sensible rate. It's not rocket
science.

When you try a new diet, and it doesn't work, you have two options.
The first is to alter it and experiment until it does work. The second
is to give up. Most fat people chose the second option. That is the
option for failure. Once a fat person has chosen that option, he can
remain fat and claim that he tried to lose weight but failed, so he
must be genetically destined to be fat, it's not his fault, dieting
doesn't work etc.

Sustained weight loss involves hard work and adjustments when
necessary, not giving up when things go slightly wrong. Imagine if
everyone had the same attitude as fat people do with dieting:
Computer programmers saying 'programming doesn't work' if a program
doesn't compile because of a typo, chefs saying 'cooking doesn't work'
because they messed up a single recipe because they slightly
over-cooked it, car drivers saying 'driving doesn't work' because they
once stalled the engine...

However thankfully they don't think like that. When something goes
wrong they work out what went wrong and go about fixing it, they don't
just give up.

And that
would be a pretty useless value anyway, it's not like you would have any
reliable data to use to match your food with it, calorie tables are all but
reliable...

What...you're saying all the nutritional information on food packaging
is made up? That all these scientists across the world are involved in
a giant conspiracy to make you fat?

Trying to match a complex biological process with elementary school
mathematics is not going to bring you anywhere. It's like a T1 diabetic
trying to mimick a pancreas with his insulin shoots, it's close to
impossible to get a perfect match.

Yet they manage to get by somehow... Maybe it's because they just get
on with it rather than whining about how difficult everything is.

So, how did you lose your weight?

I can't speak for him but I for one have lost a not-insignificant
amount of weight.

Was it easy or effortless?

No, it was hard and disciplined. I watched nearly everything I ate and
forced myself into the gym twice a week, not to mention a
not-insignificant amount of cardio outside of the gym. No-one said it
was supposed to be easy. I think that is the real issue for fat people
saying that dieting is impossible. It's not impossible, it's just
harder than they want it to be.

And for how
long have you maintained? Are you positive you will be able to maintain for
life?

Once I lose enough fat I don't plan to maintain, I plan to then start
to put on muscle mass. Looking after your body is a life-time
commitment, not something you do once then give up.

Did you ever suffer from eating disorders or were you just the average
over-eater?

I got fat from eating everything I could lay my eyes on, and through
doing absolutely no exercise. I lost the weight from doing the
opposite.

The fact that to you losing weight was effortless doesn't mean it is the
case for everyone.

He hasn't even replied saying whether it was effortless or not and
you're already replying as if he'd replied that it was.

For most obeses, it isn't. On the other hand, maintening
a constant weight *is* effortless for well regulated slim people.

Well, if it's easy for them, and not for you, that's just tough ****.
Not everything is equal and fair.

snip excuse making

Sure they can; no one said it was easy. It's matter of choosing to
eat less than the body burns and stick with it. There are no
shortcuts.

Again, are you familliar with binge eating? Do you know how it feels to wake
up in the morning only to discover you have raided the fridge while you were
"sleeping"? Do you know how it feels to black out and return to reason with
9000 calories worth of food in your belly?

Ah ok, obese people are obese because they sleepwalk and eat 9000
calories worth of food in the night... I won't ask why 9000 calories
of prepared food was so readibly available though, or why you didn't
think to put a lock on the fridge door or something... Fat people
aren't fat through sleep-eating, it's through over-eating at every
meal and through under-exercising.

Dieting is not a simple process. It's not like when you quit smoking and you
just have to stop smoking cigarettes just because you don't want to smoke
anymore. You can't stop eating altogether.

Who said anything about stopping eating altogether? You don't stop
eating, you start eating a sensible diet. That's not the hardest thing
in the world, it just takes discipline.

You have to deal with large
psychological issues too, and peer presure sometimes (some people often do
not want you to lose weight).

Of course, surely that's even more inspiration to do it?

You are being repetitive here; I've already spoken to this point more
than once. See below where I've mentioned the importance of a proper
eating plan.

But you still miss my point. It's your proper eating plan that *has* that
85% failure rate!

When followed it has a 0% failure rate. If people are lazy,
ill-disciplined, gluttonous etc and give up, that's not the diet's
fault, that's the fault of the people following it (or not following
it!).

If you know of any "plan" with a higher success rate, by
all mean, publish it and get rich!

So in other words you want a magic bullet that will make you start
taking responsibility for your own life.

No, they told them "here is a cure for you", and people believed them.
Please be more specific. What cures are you referring to?
The low fat diet. The FDA pyramid. The balanced diet. The low carb diet
(which will probably become official sooner or later).

How many fat people have stuck to a sensible, balanced diet of the
correct portions with regular exercise and not lost weight? Stop
blaming other people for your failures and start taking responsiblity.

Huh? I am clearly advocating a sensible eating plan that can be
followed for life (and finetuned as necessary), not a quickie weight
loss method. This was stated before, read further down in the post
where I had mentioned just that.

Yes, like many doctors and the government has done before you. Except it
doesn't work much better than most fad diets.

Yes, it does, you just don't want to believe it does, because if you
know it does, then you know that it's your own fault that you're fat,
which means you can't carry on blaming other people for your own
failings.

You're being repetitive again. Asked and addressed.

Not really. I still don't know what you diet is. And I still don't see why
this miracle diet is supposed to work any better than all the existing
diets.

A 'miracle' diet is 10-12*(body weight in pounds) in calories a day,
with 0.8g of protein per pound of body weight, adjusted when
necessary. This also involves weight-lifting, working out the whole
body 1-2* a week, and regular cardio.

This works as it allows you to lose fat and maintain muscle at a
steady rate and also doesn't place heavy restrictions on what you can
eat. However it has its downsides: it involves planning, discipline
and hard work, those horrible old-fashioned things.

Margarine, which was advertised as healthy food. Low fat (whatever), which a
lot of doctors tell you is better than regular options. Protein powders that
a lot of of dietitians will actually tell you to use...

What's wrong with protein powder?

Nonsense. The majority of mainstream nutritionists have always taken
a position that calories matter. So has the government (here).

When did the FDA create their pyramid then? Why the campain about cutting
fats? Why do most diabete or likewise official documents recommend cutting
fats? If calories are all that matter, why don't they just write it down?

The US government doesn't equal the whole world of nutritionists. The
world doesn't end at America's borders.

In and of itself, it does not. But it certainly helps in weight loss
and maintenance. As I mentioned before, weight training is
particularly beneficial in building and maintaining muscle mass.

I know. It does help you after you lost weight. But it didn't make you gain
weight in the first place. There are plenty of slim people with barely
enough muscles to move from the couch to the bed.

So? They're not you. Stop blaming your problems on other people.

Do you understand the role of lean muscle mass in metabolism, or do I
need to spell it out for you?

I do understand it, except I don't see the point. As long as your metabolism
is within the norm (that is, you burn more than 1200 calories a day), who
cares how high or low it is?

Wow, you really are clueless, no wonder you have such trouble losing
weight. A higher metabolism means you burn more calories so you lose
fat more easily. A lower metabolism means you lose weight much more
difficultly.

Naturally slim people are able to maintain
weight on a low metabolism.

If you're not naturally slim then what applies to them is irrelevent
to you. Stop trying to deflect criticisms onto other people. Also
you'll find that 'naturally slim' people either have naturally higher
metabolisms or eat less food than normal. Either way it probably
doesn't apply to you.

No study has shown obese to have any specific
kind of metabolism. Some obeses are much lower than the average (mostly
those who have dieted a lot), but others are much higher than the norm
(mostly those who never dieted).

You've completely missed the point.

If you've really got your head stuck in the sand that far, and can't
see how people have free will and ultimately make their own choices
about how they treat their bodies, there's not much point of
explaining it to you yet again.

No , I don't believe people have free will when they have to go through a
bunch of misinformation and conditionning.

There's information all over the place, it's up to you to work out
which is good information and which is bad. Nothing comes on a silver
plate. This is another example of you not taking responsiblity for
your own actions but instead blaming other people.

Sure I do. I've lost weight and kept it off. I've also had the
unfortunate experience of failing at diets. But do go on.

No thank you. I don't believe in beating the same old path that has failed
time and time again. If something fails repetitively, it's probably that
that something is flawed.

Or perhaps you haven't adjusted it to make it work, or perhaps you
just can't follow it properly.

And I believe that diets are flawed, because of
the very way they are built and their ignorance of basic psychological
issues.

No, people are flawed because they don't follow the diets. The diets
themselves are fine, they work. If you chose to follow it badly it's
not the diet's fault. Stop blaming your obesity on other people, it's
not their fault for not making a magic bullet to stop you stuffing
yourself with food.

- and it means hard work.
Lol, didn't I just mention hard work above?

So, obeses should work a lot harder than normal people, just to achieve
equality with them at something normal people do not even have to think
about... Isn't that what social security is supposed to be all about? You
know, the whole "we will give you equal chances so you can compete" and
all...

Er, sorry to disappoint you, but people aren't created equal. If you
have a tendency to put on more weight than other people, then you're
going to have to work harder to get rid of it. If you don't like it's
tough ****, no-one ever said life was fair. You seem to be surprised
by the requirement of hard work in losing weight. Somehow this doesn't
surprise me.