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#41
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:31:55 -0600, "cheesegator"
wrote: Here's the problem: LC advocates have been viewed as frauds by your ilk for decades. Here's your problem. You libelous statements are as important as your Usenet handle. Until very recently, any study they conducted.. Who, exactly is, "they", Cheese? (or partially funded) was dismissed out of hand by the keepers of the orthodoxy-- Who, exactly is, "the keepers", Cheese? These studies are also expensive to undertake. Why sink lots of $$$$ into a study whose results the "establishment" stubbornly refuses to accept. Uh, because real researchers seek the truth and not acceptance maybe? "Knowing" that the earth was flat, your kind.. Name my "kind", Cheese. saw no need to conduct studies to bear out what the LC advocates had been claiming. I have some great recipes for all the egg on your collective faces. Who and where are these "faces", Cheese? 1. Studies conducted by or funded by LC advocates/researchers didn't count. 2. The medical establishment, although biased against LC diets, chose not to conduct any major studies of the issue. Yes, Doctor Atkins did refuse to do so, Cheese. Those poor *******s who did undertake small trials were shouted down any time the elders didn't like their results. Exactly where did you see this occurring, Cheese? http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
#42
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Mars at the Mu_n's Edge wrote:
The only place we might differ is in studying the pathological effects of, say, ketosis over a term. Not being a researcher, I am not at all certain if this is doable but I am told, by researchers, it is. On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:45:01 +0100, "M.W.Smith" wrote: I think that aspect of it *is* testable. It just requires subjects to be on a generally high-fat-low-carb diet for many years and then to compare their disease statistics with those of people who were not on that kind of diet during the same period of years. What about environmental variants? Trans fat intakes? How do you get a clinically clean control group or testing group? I'm saying I don't think you have to have clean groups here. However, my ESP tells me that any positive correlation between Atkins and higher rates of heart problems and cancer problems can probably be nullified if not reversed by strict adherence to daily strenuous exercise and daily high water consumption. What is the reason for high water consumption? Flushing waste from everywhere in the body as efficiently and quickly as possible. In other words, I expect it will be shown that when you do the Atkins diet, you must do the diet component, the exercise component, and the water drinking component, and that the exercise and water components are as important as the diet component. Is this high water consumption to offset water loss in ketosis or water loss in Atkins at all times of the diet? Water loss during exercise. I won't be surprised if the studies end up showing that if you're a sloth going in and you remain a sloth, the Atkins diet will increase your chances of dying before your time. It is your opinion, then, that Atkins, or perhaps any diet (including the 2PDiet) would be, or could be, counterproductive to long life if not combined with an appropriate exercise program? Too strong a statement. I think it has been shown that low-fat diets reduce cancer and heart disease. I'm saying that to get the same disease statistics on low-carb, high-fat diets, the appropriate exercise program must accompany the diet. And if that is the case, should that program leaned to the aerobic or anaerobic ? If by anaerobic you mean weightlifting, then it should lean heavily toward aerobic. If by anaerobic you mean all kinds of HIIT, then whatever suits you. martin |
#43
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:52:51 -0500, Mars at the Mu_n's Edge
wrote: adherence to daily strenuous exercise and daily high water consumption. What is the reason for high water consumption? Don't you know? Diet books are required to recommend 8 glasses of dihydrogen monoxide. It's some sort of federal law or something -- Ron Ritzman http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart Smart people can figure out my email address |
#44
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 13:53:02 +0100, "M.W.Smith"
wrote: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings that are most dieters' downfall. I'm actually going to concede this point. One of my meals was sometimes stir fry chicken and broccoli. I sometimes used olive oil and sometimes ghee. (clarified butter) Ghee did a better job blunting my appetite then olive oil did. With either my appetite was more controlled then when I used SlimFast however. -- Ron Ritzman http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart Smart people can figure out my email address |
#45
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Ron Ritzman wrote:
:: On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:06:43 GMT, Matti Narkia :: wrote: :: ::: In one of his usenet messages Lyle McDonald, the author the book ::: _The ::: Ketogenic Diet_ (http://www.theketogenicdiet.com/), emphasizes that ::: one shouldn't equate Atkins' diet with a low-carb/ketogenic diet, ::: and that low-carb/ketogenic diet can be made a lot healthier than ::: Atkins' diet. The ::: link to the message is ::: ::: http://groups.google.fi/groups?selm=...omIMRETARDE D ..net ::: (http://tinyurl.com/so0e) :: :: And Lyle is usually right :: :: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, flax :: oil and macadamia nuts? I do it all the time....others do as well if they are concerned about calorie intake as well as carbs. When I did the diet (limited budget) my :: typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a half can of Double :: Q :: salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low carb dressing :: or :: lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of beef or pork I could :: find :: on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green vegetable. I did not :: constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and bunless burgers. (though :: I :: won't say I never ate those things.) I eat them occasionally too, but salmon and chicken breasts are the main meats I eat. :: :: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, regardless :: of :: the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So does :: exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, (assuming :: it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is exercising) the :: dieter is often better off then he was on his old diet sitting in his :: easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser curls and the 5 yard :: commercial break potty dash. Right. |
#46
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
M.W.Smith wrote:
:: Ron Ritzman wrote: ::: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, ::: flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet (limited budget) my ::: typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a half can of ::: Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low carb ::: dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of beef or ::: pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green ::: vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and ::: bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those things.) :: :: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem :: is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat :: foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings :: that are most dieters' downfall. For these people, the diet :: you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger :: and cravings. Sure it does. Protein & fiber help, along with good fats. :: ::: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, regardless ::: of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So ::: does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, ::: (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is ::: exercising) the dieter is often better off then he was on his old ::: diet sitting in his easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser ::: curls and the 5 yard commercial break potty dash. :: :: I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely :: nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in :: the diet. Especially if that exercise keeps calorie consumption from being excessive. |
#47
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ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins...Patricia
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#48
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Roger Zoul wrote:
M.W.Smith wrote: :: Ron Ritzman wrote: ::: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, ::: flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet (limited budget) my ::: typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a half can of ::: Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low carb ::: dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of beef or ::: pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green ::: vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and ::: bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those things.) :: :: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem :: is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat :: foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings :: that are most dieters' downfall. For these people, the diet :: you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger :: and cravings. Sure it does. Protein & fiber help, along with good fats. Not for me. Fiber is filling, but the full feeling doesn't eliminate hunger for me. Protein does reduce hunger for me, but not as efficiently as fat. ::: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, regardless ::: of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So ::: does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, ::: (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is ::: exercising) the dieter is often better off then he was on his old ::: diet sitting in his easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser ::: curls and the 5 yard commercial break potty dash. :: :: I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely :: nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in :: the diet. Especially if that exercise keeps calorie consumption from being excessive. For most people, exercise increases calorie consumption. martin |
#49
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
M.W.Smith wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote: :: ::: M.W.Smith wrote: ::::: Ron Ritzman wrote: :::::: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, :::::: flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet (limited :::::: budget) my typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a :::::: half can of :::::: Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low :::::: carb dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of :::::: beef or :::::: pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green :::::: vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and :::::: bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those things.) ::::: ::::: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem ::::: is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat ::::: foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings ::::: that are most dieters' downfall. For these people, the diet ::::: you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger ::::: and cravings. ::: ::: Sure it does. Protein & fiber help, along with good fats. :: :: Not for me. Fiber is filling, but the full feeling doesn't :: eliminate hunger for me. Protein does reduce hunger for me, :: but not as efficiently as fat. Are you referring to simply sat fats? One can easily add in fats to protein and fiber rich foods. I'm saying that one doens't need to pig out on sat fats to do low-carb. :: :::::: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, :::::: regardless :::::: of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So :::::: does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, :::::: (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is :::::: exercising) the dieter is often better off then he was on his old :::::: diet sitting in his easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser :::::: curls and the 5 yard commercial break potty dash. ::::: ::::: I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely ::::: nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in ::::: the diet. ::: ::: Especially if that exercise keeps calorie consumption from being ::: excessive. :: :: For most people, exercise increases calorie consumption. Interesting. I've found this to be the case only when starting an exercise program after not doing any over a period of several months. And espeically so for weight training. For me, adapting to a regular exercise program helps me control eating. Not exercising seems to bring on increased calorie consumption for me. I guess it is a YMMV kind of thing. |
#50
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Roger Zoul wrote:
M.W.Smith wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: :: ::: M.W.Smith wrote: ::::: Ron Ritzman wrote: :::::: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, :::::: flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet (limited :::::: budget) my typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a :::::: half can of :::::: Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low :::::: carb dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of :::::: beef or :::::: pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green :::::: vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and :::::: bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those things.) ::::: ::::: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem ::::: is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat ::::: foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings ::::: that are most dieters' downfall. For these people, the diet ::::: you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger ::::: and cravings. ::: ::: Sure it does. Protein & fiber help, along with good fats. :: :: Not for me. Fiber is filling, but the full feeling doesn't :: eliminate hunger for me. Protein does reduce hunger for me, :: but not as efficiently as fat. Are you referring to simply sat fats? One can easily add in fats to protein and fiber rich foods. I'm saying that one doens't need to pig out on sat fats to do low-carb. We're never talking about pigging out. :::::: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, :::::: regardless :::::: of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So :::::: does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, :::::: (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is :::::: exercising) the dieter is often better off then he was on his old :::::: diet sitting in his easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser :::::: curls and the 5 yard commercial break potty dash. ::::: ::::: I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely ::::: nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in ::::: the diet. ::: ::: Especially if that exercise keeps calorie consumption from being ::: excessive. :: :: For most people, exercise increases calorie consumption. Interesting. I've found this to be the case only when starting an exercise program after not doing any over a period of several months. And espeically so for weight training. For me, adapting to a regular exercise program helps me control eating. Not exercising seems to bring on increased calorie consumption for me. Try swimming 2k in the morning before work. I guess it is a YMMV kind of thing. |
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