Ever hit a plateau like this?

On Dec 17, 1:55 pm, Doug Freyburger wrote:
wrote:

I have hit a plateau like never before. Frustrating.
...
The last three weekly weigh-ins we

11/26/07 237.5
12/3/07 236.4 (lost 1.1)
12/10/07 236.6 (gained .2?)

Any thoughts from all you good folks on the subject?

Advice from Dr Atkins that really applies across the board -

A stall is defined as 4+ weeks without a cheat, without a new
low, without a lost inch.

This definition is not arbitrary. It is to teach what are and aren't
realisitic in expectations. The blunt fact of it is the time scale
for loss is month to month no matter that fact's been hated by
every dieter in history. Scale inaccuracies, water retnetion
bounce, you name it. They all conspire against any realistic
expectation that loss is possible each and every week.

Your most recent new low is 2 weeks ago. Therefore nothing is
wrong and no reaction is called for. It's really that simple and
that difficult to accept. But accept it anyways.

Another consideration - Rate of loss is proportional to amount left
to lose. Not, calorie deficts do NOT enter into this. Someone
with 100 to lose loses faster than someone with 50 to lose loses
after than someone in the last 10 pounds. By the time you no
longer have 100+ to lose the rate is no longer fast enough for the
weekly loss rate to overwhelm water retention bounce, and further
caloric reduction does nothing to change this.

You are doing fine. Really. Breath deeply. Relax. Stay with
your plan.


This is a great reply, thanks! And as it turns out, you are 100%
correct too. I just got back from my travels, weighed myself, and
found I had "lost" 5.2 lbs this week. Plateau busted. There is no way
that I actually lost 5 pounds this week (I know what I ate and how
much I moved), some had to have come in the preceding "plateau" weeks,
but is just now showing up on the scale. Water retention makes sense
to me, and is probably something I had not considered strongly
enough. OK, I know now not to panic and take a longer term view.
Thank you so much for your information and encouragement.

-Jeff

On Dec 16, 1:03 pm, Del Cecchi
wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 16, 7:49 am, "Cubit" wrote:
wrote in message

...

I have hit a plateau like never before. Frustrating.
I have been religiously tracking everything that goes in my mouth. I
manage my calories to a 1000 daily deficit, but I eat 2000+ per day,
as I exercise quite a bit. I am doing 60 minutes of elliptical a day,
staying precisely at 65% max heart rate to hopefully burn fat. I am
playing tennis three times a week, and I have been doing 30 minutes of
strength training three times a week. Given this, I would expect to
lose about 2 pounds a week, and I have been averaging a little more
than that over the last ten weeks. I am 43, 6 ft, and my starting
weight was 262 lbs.
The last three weekly weigh-ins we
11/26/07 237.5
12/3/07 236.4 (lost 1.1)
12/10/07 236.6 (gained .2?)
Where is my 2 pounds a week that I am working so hard for?
According to my scale, my body fat percentage has dropped from 30 to
29 over the last three weeks, but my experience is that the body fat %
readings tend to be unreliable to the tune of 1-3%, so who knows?
Anyone ever hit a wall like this? My friends say, just stay the course
and you will drop 3 or 4 pounds on one of your next weigh-ins. And my
weight loss has come in chunks in the past. Why should this be so?
What happened to 3500 calories per pound? There must be some other
mechanism at work here.
I weigh myself with the same scale, on the same day, first thing in
the morning, naked, after visiting the restroom. Don't know how I
could make the weight measurements more reliable.
Any thoughts from all you good folks on the subject?
Cheers,
-Jeff
I successfully lost a lot of weight. During the long 2 pound per week
process there were a few months where I did weight training. I saw no
change in my rate of weight loss.

I have not read it yet, but I gather Gary Taubes new book makes a case
against exercise as being effective for weightloss.

To lose weight I need to eat about 1400 calories per day compared to your
2000.

If your calorie measurement is accurate, the good thing is that you have
established your break even burn rate: 2000 calories Now, you just need to
eat less.

Frequent small meals can make "eating less" easier.

Thanks for replying. Small meals makes sense to me too, and I
generally try to do this; will focus on it more.

I sure hope that I can continue to lose weight on 2000 calories or so
through exercise, as eating 1400 is just really tough for me (tried it
for a while). I'll take a look at " Good Calories, Bad Calories", if
that is the book you are referring to; maybe it will provide some new
distinctions for me. Frankly, though, the more I read the more
confusing it all gets; there are so many conflicting opinions. I've
always sort of subscribed to the Dr. Dean school of its just calories
in vs. out. Eat less and move more. I just don't want to eat THAT much
less :-) Would rather move more if at all possible, and eat
reasonably. I was hoping to use a level of eating and exercise that I
could follow for the rest of my life, so I don't yo-yo. I just don't
think I could go through the rest of my life eating fewer than about
2000 calories.

My highest weight was 296 lbs. A couple of years ago, I lost 70 lbs,
following a similar program of watching calories and exercising. In
that weight loss run I did hit a short 2 week plateau, and eventually
the weight started coming back off again, but I'll be darned if I can
explain why. If anything, I ate slightly more coming out of the
plateau rather than less. Weird.

When I was re-gaining weight recently, I was probably eating about
5,000 cals a day!! So, I guess I should take some heart in the fact
that, if nothing else, I have bucked the upward trend :-) Thanks for
your support.

Best Wishes,

-Jeff

Yes, and I have attributed it to fluid retention. Sometimes your body
seems to want to hold on to water. It can be discouraging to see the
scale stick or even jump up. If you have been eating out, that will do
it because restaurant food is high in salt.

Thanks for the reply. Water retention makes a lot of sense to me now.
Salt is something that I am really going to have to work on. I eat
tons of it in my current diet; I'm a bit of a salt-a-holic. Sounds
like it would help my overall goals to find a way to gradually cut
back along with the calorie considerations. Sure wouldn't hurt my
blood pressure any.

Thank you.

-Jeff

On Dec 17, 6:01 am, Patrick wrote:
wrote:
I have hit a plateau like never before. Frustrating.

I have been religiously tracking everything that goes in my mouth. I
manage my calories to a 1000 daily deficit, but I eat 2000+ per day,
as I exercise quite a bit. I am doing 60 minutes of elliptical a day,
staying precisely at 65% max heart rate to hopefully burn fat. I am
playing tennis three times a week, and I have been doing 30 minutes of
strength training three times a week. Given this, I would expect to
lose about 2 pounds a week, and I have been averaging a little more
than that over the last ten weeks. I am 43, 6 ft, and my starting
weight was 262 lbs.

The last three weekly weigh-ins we

11/26/07 237.5
12/3/07 236.4 (lost 1.1)
12/10/07 236.6 (gained .2?)

Where is my 2 pounds a week that I am working so hard for?

According to my scale, my body fat percentage has dropped from 30 to
29 over the last three weeks, but my experience is that the body fat %
readings tend to be unreliable to the tune of 1-3%, so who knows?

Anyone ever hit a wall like this? My friends say, just stay the course
and you will drop 3 or 4 pounds on one of your next weigh-ins. And my
weight loss has come in chunks in the past. Why should this be so?
What happened to 3500 calories per pound? There must be some other
mechanism at work here.

I weigh myself with the same scale, on the same day, first thing in
the morning, naked, after visiting the restroom. Don't know how I
could make the weight measurements more reliable.

Any thoughts from all you good folks on the subject?

Cheers,

-Jeff

Don't forget to shock the monkey. I run and weight train for my
exercise. During the summer my runs are usually between 3 - 3.8 miles
depending on how hot it is. This winter, as the temperatures cooled I
took my runs up to 5.1 miles and noticed a change in my body composition
towards the more lean side as well as losing about 2 - 3 pounds. Keep in
mind I am at the last ten pound stage and on a good day you can just
make out some definition in my abs. This from a starting weight of 285
about 12 years ago and now I hover in the 180's.

Patrick


Hi Patrick, sounds like you are where I want to be. Very encouraging,
especially since you have kept it up for such a long stretch of time.
Please help me understand the "Shock" part. Do you mean to vary
(increase) my exercise a to break through when I hit a plateau? When
you go back to your summer distance, do you expect to gain back the
2-3 lbs lost due to the 5 mile distance?

Thanks,

-Jeff

wrote:

On Dec 17, 6:01 am, Patrick wrote:

wrote:

I have hit a plateau like never before. Frustrating.
snip

Anyone ever hit a wall like this? My friends say, just stay the course
and you will drop 3 or 4 pounds on one of your next weigh-ins. And my
weight loss has come in chunks in the past. Why should this be so?
What happened to 3500 calories per pound? There must be some other
mechanism at work here.

I weigh myself with the same scale, on the same day, first thing in
the morning, naked, after visiting the restroom. Don't know how I
could make the weight measurements more reliable.

Any thoughts from all you good folks on the subject?

Cheers,

-Jeff

Don't forget to shock the monkey. I run and weight train for my
exercise. During the summer my runs are usually between 3 - 3.8 miles
depending on how hot it is. This winter, as the temperatures cooled I
took my runs up to 5.1 miles and noticed a change in my body composition
towards the more lean side as well as losing about 2 - 3 pounds. Keep in
mind I am at the last ten pound stage and on a good day you can just
make out some definition in my abs. This from a starting weight of 285
about 12 years ago and now I hover in the 180's.

Patrick



Hi Patrick, sounds like you are where I want to be. Very encouraging,
especially since you have kept it up for such a long stretch of time.
Please help me understand the "Shock" part. Do you mean to vary
(increase) my exercise a to break through when I hit a plateau? When
you go back to your summer distance, do you expect to gain back the
2-3 lbs lost due to the 5 mile distance?

Thanks,

-Jeff

Hey Jeff,

Shocking the system is doing something to get your body out of
homeostasis. Your body gets used to doing the same thing over and over
and finds a level of comfort so to speak. So shocking the system can be
anything from increasing the duration or the intensity of your exercise.
Likewise it can be eating more or less food.

I have found that I make some progress when I eat a little more, but not
much more, for a month or so. I do this without gaining more than a
pound. Then I hit my body with a deficit and drop a few pounds. Like I
said, I'm at those last ten pounds and they are indeed the hardest. I
could probably stop where I am at, but I have an image in my mind that I
would like to attain.

The thing with running more is I am burning more calories and if I am
already eating at a deficit my body responds by burning the stores
(fat). With my weight training I have to be careful to make sure I am
getting enough lean protein so my body doesn't start consuming muscle
tissue also. I find that eating a cup or so of fat free cottages cheese
before I sleep helps. 30 grams of protein. Now I am actually gaining
weight, but can feel there is less and less fat on my body. So can my
finacee. So I know it's not just my wishful thinking. LOL!

As for dropping my distance once the summer hits. I don't know. I'm
guessing that I will probably just maintain. I only upped my run time by
about 15 minutes, so I will still be running for over a half hour at a
shot. I think as long as I am staying active and not overeating I will
stay the same. Besides, I already threw out all my old clothes. A long
time ago in a galaxy far far away I wore I size 42 waist and XXL shirts.
Now I wear size 34 and medium shirts. I could probably squeeze into 32's
if I wanted to.

Good luck with what you are doing. The main thing I have found with
weight loss is that you have to believe in yourself and you have to make
a commitment to yourself to do it. You have to want it more than
anything else and you have to stick to your guns and give up yummies
during the holidays and all the time until you hit your goal. It's not a
short term endeavor, but a lifetime commitment to yourself and no other.
It's a mind set.

Happy Holidays! Eat, drink, and be merry, but do the first two in
moderation

Patrick

Probably more than I should have written, or more than you wanted to
hear, but sometimes the fingers take over. Ha!

On Dec 19, 6:40 am, Patrick wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 17, 6:01 am, Patrick wrote:

wrote:

I have hit a plateau like never before. Frustrating.
snip

Anyone ever hit a wall like this? My friends say, just stay the course
and you will drop 3 or 4 pounds on one of your next weigh-ins. And my
weight loss has come in chunks in the past. Why should this be so?
What happened to 3500 calories per pound? There must be some other
mechanism at work here.

I weigh myself with the same scale, on the same day, first thing in
the morning, naked, after visiting the restroom. Don't know how I
could make the weight measurements more reliable.

Any thoughts from all you good folks on the subject?

Cheers,

-Jeff

Don't forget to shock the monkey. I run and weight train for my
exercise. During the summer my runs are usually between 3 - 3.8 miles
depending on how hot it is. This winter, as the temperatures cooled I
took my runs up to 5.1 miles and noticed a change in my body composition
towards the more lean side as well as losing about 2 - 3 pounds. Keep in
mind I am at the last ten pound stage and on a good day you can just
make out some definition in my abs. This from a starting weight of 285
about 12 years ago and now I hover in the 180's.

Patrick

Hi Patrick, sounds like you are where I want to be. Very encouraging,
especially since you have kept it up for such a long stretch of time.
Please help me understand the "Shock" part. Do you mean to vary
(increase) my exercise a to break through when I hit a plateau? When
you go back to your summer distance, do you expect to gain back the
2-3 lbs lost due to the 5 mile distance?

Thanks,

-Jeff

Hey Jeff,

Shocking the system is doing something to get your body out of
homeostasis. Your body gets used to doing the same thing over and over
and finds a level of comfort so to speak. So shocking the system can be
anything from increasing the duration or the intensity of your exercise.
Likewise it can be eating more or less food.

I have found that I make some progress when I eat a little more, but not
much more, for a month or so. I do this without gaining more than a
pound. Then I hit my body with a deficit and drop a few pounds. Like I
said, I'm at those last ten pounds and they are indeed the hardest. I
could probably stop where I am at, but I have an image in my mind that I
would like to attain.

The thing with running more is I am burning more calories and if I am
already eating at a deficit my body responds by burning the stores
(fat). With my weight training I have to be careful to make sure I am
getting enough lean protein so my body doesn't start consuming muscle
tissue also. I find that eating a cup or so of fat free cottages cheese
before I sleep helps. 30 grams of protein. Now I am actually gaining
weight, but can feel there is less and less fat on my body. So can my
finacee. So I know it's not just my wishful thinking. LOL!

As for dropping my distance once the summer hits. I don't know. I'm
guessing that I will probably just maintain. I only upped my run time by
about 15 minutes, so I will still be running for over a half hour at a
shot. I think as long as I am staying active and not overeating I will
stay the same. Besides, I already threw out all my old clothes. A long
time ago in a galaxy far far away I wore I size 42 waist and XXL shirts.
Now I wear size 34 and medium shirts. I could probably squeeze into 32's
if I wanted to.

Good luck with what you are doing. The main thing I have found with
weight loss is that you have to believe in yourself and you have to make
a commitment to yourself to do it. You have to want it more than
anything else and you have to stick to your guns and give up yummies
during the holidays and all the time until you hit your goal. It's not a
short term endeavor, but a lifetime commitment to yourself and no other.
It's a mind set.

Happy Holidays! Eat, drink, and be merry, but do the first two in
moderation

Patrick

Probably more than I should have written, or more than you wanted to
hear, but sometimes the fingers take over. Ha!

Hi Patrick,

This is good stuff. I now understand what you mean by shocking the
system and will keep it in mind going forward. What you are saying
about the protein and weight training matches what I have heard
elsewhere; sound advice, but I don't know how you can eat cottage
cheese, I couldn't do it even to make all the finances in the world
happy :-) Will have to substitute almonds or something.

34s and medium shirts is my holy grail. At my highest, I had a 48+
inch waist and XXL shirts were skin tight. Already down to 38's and
XLs are loose, so things are thankfully trending in the right
direction.

It's a little scary to think that it will get even more difficult to
lose weight the closer I get to my goal, but I can think of reasons
why this should be so. For example, once my thighs stop rubbing
together my exercise mets will go down due to the decreased
friction ;-)

I sincerely appreciate your encouragement. I fully intend to join you
in the century club and stay there for good; some time next year if
all goes as planned.

Regards and happy holidays,

-Jeff

wrote:

On Dec 19, 6:40 am, Patrick wrote:

wrote:

On Dec 17, 6:01 am, Patrick wrote:

wrote:

I have hit a plateau like never before. Frustrating.

snip

Anyone ever hit a wall like this? My friends say, just stay the course
and you will drop 3 or 4 pounds on one of your next weigh-ins. And my
weight loss has come in chunks in the past. Why should this be so?
What happened to 3500 calories per pound? There must be some other
mechanism at work here.

I weigh myself with the same scale, on the same day, first thing in
the morning, naked, after visiting the restroom. Don't know how I
could make the weight measurements more reliable.

Any thoughts from all you good folks on the subject?

Cheers,

-Jeff

Don't forget to shock the monkey. I run and weight train for my
exercise. During the summer my runs are usually between 3 - 3.8 miles
depending on how hot it is. This winter, as the temperatures cooled I
took my runs up to 5.1 miles and noticed a change in my body composition
towards the more lean side as well as losing about 2 - 3 pounds. Keep in
mind I am at the last ten pound stage and on a good day you can just
make out some definition in my abs. This from a starting weight of 285
about 12 years ago and now I hover in the 180's.

Patrick

Hi Patrick, sounds like you are where I want to be. Very encouraging,
especially since you have kept it up for such a long stretch of time.
Please help me understand the "Shock" part. Do you mean to vary
(increase) my exercise a to break through when I hit a plateau? When
you go back to your summer distance, do you expect to gain back the
2-3 lbs lost due to the 5 mile distance?

Thanks,

-Jeff

Hey Jeff,

Shocking the system is doing something to get your body out of
homeostasis. Your body gets used to doing the same thing over and over
and finds a level of comfort so to speak. So shocking the system can be
anything from increasing the duration or the intensity of your exercise.
Likewise it can be eating more or less food.

I have found that I make some progress when I eat a little more, but not
much more, for a month or so. I do this without gaining more than a
pound. Then I hit my body with a deficit and drop a few pounds. Like I
said, I'm at those last ten pounds and they are indeed the hardest. I
could probably stop where I am at, but I have an image in my mind that I
would like to attain.

The thing with running more is I am burning more calories and if I am
already eating at a deficit my body responds by burning the stores
(fat). With my weight training I have to be careful to make sure I am
getting enough lean protein so my body doesn't start consuming muscle
tissue also. I find that eating a cup or so of fat free cottages cheese
before I sleep helps. 30 grams of protein. Now I am actually gaining
weight, but can feel there is less and less fat on my body. So can my
finacee. So I know it's not just my wishful thinking. LOL!

As for dropping my distance once the summer hits. I don't know. I'm
guessing that I will probably just maintain. I only upped my run time by
about 15 minutes, so I will still be running for over a half hour at a
shot. I think as long as I am staying active and not overeating I will
stay the same. Besides, I already threw out all my old clothes. A long
time ago in a galaxy far far away I wore I size 42 waist and XXL shirts.
Now I wear size 34 and medium shirts. I could probably squeeze into 32's
if I wanted to.

Good luck with what you are doing. The main thing I have found with
weight loss is that you have to believe in yourself and you have to make
a commitment to yourself to do it. You have to want it more than
anything else and you have to stick to your guns and give up yummies
during the holidays and all the time until you hit your goal. It's not a
short term endeavor, but a lifetime commitment to yourself and no other.
It's a mind set.

Happy Holidays! Eat, drink, and be merry, but do the first two in
moderation

Patrick

Probably more than I should have written, or more than you wanted to
hear, but sometimes the fingers take over. Ha!


Hi Patrick,

This is good stuff. I now understand what you mean by shocking the
system and will keep it in mind going forward. What you are saying
about the protein and weight training matches what I have heard
elsewhere; sound advice, but I don't know how you can eat cottage
cheese, I couldn't do it even to make all the finances in the world
happy :-) Will have to substitute almonds or something.

34s and medium shirts is my holy grail. At my highest, I had a 48+
inch waist and XXL shirts were skin tight. Already down to 38's and
XLs are loose, so things are thankfully trending in the right
direction.

It's a little scary to think that it will get even more difficult to
lose weight the closer I get to my goal, but I can think of reasons
why this should be so. For example, once my thighs stop rubbing
together my exercise mets will go down due to the decreased
friction ;-)

I sincerely appreciate your encouragement. I fully intend to join you
in the century club and stay there for good; some time next year if
all goes as planned.

Regards and happy holidays,

-Jeff

Hey Jeff,

Listen, when you get to the last 10 pounds you will already be looking
good and feeling good. For me it's just the difference between looking a
little soft or looking real tight. I've just chosen the latter. It's my
vision.

Yeah, if I didn't like cottage cheese I would probably be cooking up
some egg beaters instead. At least something low fat and high protein.

Anyhow, my mantra has been "I know what I'm doing".

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too. Hope to hear your
ultimate success story some day.

Patrick


--
Patrick A. Smith Assistant System Administrator
Ocean Circulation Group – USF - College of Marine Science
http://ocgweb.marine.usf.edu Phone: 727 553-3334

The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody
appreciates how difficult it was. - La Rochefoucauld

Manipulating water retention misses the point. Body fat is the issue.


wrote in message
...
On Dec 16, 1:03 pm, Del Cecchi
wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 16, 7:49 am, "Cubit" wrote:
wrote in message

...

I have hit a plateau like never before. Frustrating.
I have been religiously tracking everything that goes in my mouth. I
manage my calories to a 1000 daily deficit, but I eat 2000+ per day,
as I exercise quite a bit. I am doing 60 minutes of elliptical a day,
staying precisely at 65% max heart rate to hopefully burn fat. I am
playing tennis three times a week, and I have been doing 30 minutes
of
strength training three times a week. Given this, I would expect to
lose about 2 pounds a week, and I have been averaging a little more
than that over the last ten weeks. I am 43, 6 ft, and my starting
weight was 262 lbs.
The last three weekly weigh-ins we
11/26/07 237.5
12/3/07 236.4 (lost 1.1)
12/10/07 236.6 (gained .2?)
Where is my 2 pounds a week that I am working so hard for?
According to my scale, my body fat percentage has dropped from 30 to
29 over the last three weeks, but my experience is that the body fat
%
readings tend to be unreliable to the tune of 1-3%, so who knows?
Anyone ever hit a wall like this? My friends say, just stay the
course
and you will drop 3 or 4 pounds on one of your next weigh-ins. And my
weight loss has come in chunks in the past. Why should this be so?
What happened to 3500 calories per pound? There must be some other
mechanism at work here.
I weigh myself with the same scale, on the same day, first thing in
the morning, naked, after visiting the restroom. Don't know how I
could make the weight measurements more reliable.
Any thoughts from all you good folks on the subject?
Cheers,
-Jeff
I successfully lost a lot of weight. During the long 2 pound per week
process there were a few months where I did weight training. I saw no
change in my rate of weight loss.

I have not read it yet, but I gather Gary Taubes new book makes a case
against exercise as being effective for weightloss.

To lose weight I need to eat about 1400 calories per day compared to
your
2000.

If your calorie measurement is accurate, the good thing is that you
have
established your break even burn rate: 2000 calories Now, you just
need to
eat less.

Frequent small meals can make "eating less" easier.

Thanks for replying. Small meals makes sense to me too, and I
generally try to do this; will focus on it more.

I sure hope that I can continue to lose weight on 2000 calories or so
through exercise, as eating 1400 is just really tough for me (tried it
for a while). I'll take a look at " Good Calories, Bad Calories", if
that is the book you are referring to; maybe it will provide some new
distinctions for me. Frankly, though, the more I read the more
confusing it all gets; there are so many conflicting opinions. I've
always sort of subscribed to the Dr. Dean school of its just calories
in vs. out. Eat less and move more. I just don't want to eat THAT much
less :-) Would rather move more if at all possible, and eat
reasonably. I was hoping to use a level of eating and exercise that I
could follow for the rest of my life, so I don't yo-yo. I just don't
think I could go through the rest of my life eating fewer than about
2000 calories.

My highest weight was 296 lbs. A couple of years ago, I lost 70 lbs,
following a similar program of watching calories and exercising. In
that weight loss run I did hit a short 2 week plateau, and eventually
the weight started coming back off again, but I'll be darned if I can
explain why. If anything, I ate slightly more coming out of the
plateau rather than less. Weird.

When I was re-gaining weight recently, I was probably eating about
5,000 cals a day!! So, I guess I should take some heart in the fact
that, if nothing else, I have bucked the upward trend :-) Thanks for
your support.

Best Wishes,

-Jeff

Yes, and I have attributed it to fluid retention. Sometimes your body
seems to want to hold on to water. It can be discouraging to see the
scale stick or even jump up. If you have been eating out, that will do
it because restaurant food is high in salt.

Thanks for the reply. Water retention makes a lot of sense to me now.
Salt is something that I am really going to have to work on. I eat
tons of it in my current diet; I'm a bit of a salt-a-holic. Sounds
like it would help my overall goals to find a way to gradually cut
back along with the calorie considerations. Sure wouldn't hurt my
blood pressure any.

Thank you.

-Jeff