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#161
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Maximizing life expectancy/enjoyment
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
"John M. Williams" wrote: DZ wrote: Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote: Seth Breidbart wrote: So how did you make your determination that "Christ lives"? What was his pulse when you measured it? You are welcome to visit me to confirm that you are alive. When you do, you'll also have the answers to your questions. Somehow, this sounds rather threatening... Actually, it sounds like Jesus hangs out at his office. He does :-) Is he your dietician? Does he pass out two-pound servings of loaves and fishes? |
#162
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Maximizing life expectancy/enjoyment
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:40:37 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote: Is he your dietician? Does he pass out two-pound servings of loaves and fishes? He remains my Lord and Savior :-) Thank you for your interest. This is typical misc.fitness.weights banter. Mostly tongue-in-cheek horse**** and John Williams is one of the leaders of BS. But then, Williams wife divorced him over his illicit involvement (adultery) with one Elzi Volk who, if you can believe this, was Lyle McDonald's girlfriend before she swapped MFW idiots. She is sort of the Usenet prostitute and is now serving a five year suspension for using illegal drugs in athletic performance. And guess who she was "dating" when she got those drugs? http://www.rustyiron.net/ Yep, Mr. Williams. Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
#163
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Maximizing life expectancy/enjoyment
John M. Williams wrote:
DZ wrote: Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote: Seth Breidbart wrote: So how did you make your determination that "Christ lives"? What was his pulse when you measured it? You are welcome to visit me to confirm that you are alive. When you do, you'll also have the answers to your questions. Somehow, this sounds rather threatening... Actually, it sounds like Jesus hangs out at his office. He does, except on Wednesdays. It is golf day. You should see him walk across the water hazards. Lift clubs, walk bag, extra balls, eat 19th hole |
#164
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Maximizing life expectancy/enjoyment
In article ,
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote: "John M. Williams" wrote: DZ wrote: Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote: Seth Breidbart wrote: So how did you make your determination that "Christ lives"? What was his pulse when you measured it? You are welcome to visit me to confirm that you are alive. When you do, you'll also have the answers to your questions. Somehow, this sounds rather threatening... Actually, it sounds like Jesus hangs out at his office. He does :-) So measure his pulse already. Sheesh. Seth -- When I'm telling you to get a life, it's time to consider suicide very seriously. -- Lyle McDonald |
#165
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Maximizing life expectancy/enjoyment
Proton Soup wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:06:08 -0400, Bob Pastorio wrote: Anthropomorphism is a "language" and only on the surface of religion. Anthropomorphism is a "language..." What could that mean? Anthropomorphism is attributing human characteristics to non-humans. It is utterly central to religions. If god couldn't hear and see people, there would be no point in the existence. If god didn't exhibit human characteristics like mercy and compassion, there's no point to the belief. But what is the term for the reverse phenomenon? Deomorphism? Genesis starts off with God creating man in his image, not the other way 'round. Yes, it does. and the stuff of theological discourse ever since. What does that "image" actually include? Certainly not appearance since god is incorporeal. Certainly not breadth of intellect since we have clear limits, with more being uncovered daily as research into mind-brain relationships probe ever more deeply. Free will? Hardly, as more instincts and hard-wired behaviors are detailed. Tendency to goodness? Look at human history. So exactly what components of god are we made in the image of? Hard question. Depending on which orthodox sect you ask, it will range from "pure spiritual essence" to "the soul." Your call. But there are older creation stories that feature much the same notion. The myths (as Joseph Campbell used the word) that form the beginning of the old testament are hardly recorded there for the first time. Older civilizations than the Jewish one of 2500BC had already written their legends and myths that ended up being incorporated into the old books. Look he http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/bibleanalysis.html to build comprehensive ethical systems. What makes you obey rules of such a system? Intelligent self-interest. If we all adhere to an ethical system that promises no undue harm, it's in our best interests to support it. Given that there are bad people in the world, the system has to include what to do with the ones who refuse to deal gently with the rest. And it should be done ethically as well. There are no objective ethics, but if I had to choose a system to live under, I'd go with Ayn Rand's. But, of course, her system was just as subject as all others. You're right, there is no objective ethical system, nor is there any other objective verity when the subject is human action. The problem I have with her approach, Objectivism, is that it's too close to a solipsistic view of the universe. It permits no weakness or infirmity. It fosters no charity or altruism. It's too cold and solitary for me. It promotes rationalism to the point of unemotional frigidity. A bit too restrained for me. Howard Roark is a swell guy, just not somebody I want for a friend or co-worker. Pastorio |
#166
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Maximizing life expectancy/enjoyment
Bob Pastorio wrote:
DZ wrote: So my FUNDAMENTAL desire may result in punishment and isolation? NOT good enough, John. What about the needed sense of comfort, integrity, and lack of contradiction. Not your fundamental desire, your specific actions. If you break the social covenant, you are punished. If you uphold it, you are generally rewarded with a more pleasant life free to seek your other desires. Integrity and lack of contradiction? You find this in your religious teachings? What my religious teachings? Hominoid spesies are cannibalistic, violent, banging on the chest, sneaky, lying, racist, hating animals - put in a place where we can't be what we really are. In addition to that, hypertrophy of the human brain makes it susceptible to extreme variety of ferocious overwhelming desires (that includes sucking on the mammary gland AND MORE), and brings it awarenes of suffering, death etc. Countries like USSR with nearly 100% of the population educated and taught atheistic concepts, starting elementary school or earlier, totally failed to produce religion-free societies. Why do you think this this so? DZ As long as there are honest people with opposing views and needs, there can be neither. Integrity means oneness. Religion and religious belief is based on desire for these things, but nowhere are they externally delivered. We each choose that portion that pleases us. The bible is replete with contradiction and mutually exclusive conditions. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/bibleanalysis.html Pastorio -- Wheel discovery department |
#167
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Maximizing life expectancy/enjoyment
DZ wrote:
Countries like USSR with nearly 100% of the population educated and taught atheistic concepts, starting elementary school or earlier, totally failed to produce religion-free societies. Why do you think this this so? Because there are questions science can't answer. Religions provide those answers, albeit not verifiable ones. martin -- Clark for President http://www.clark04.com/ Martin Smith |
#168
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Maximizing life expectancy/enjoyment
DZ wrote:
Bob Pastorio wrote: DZ wrote: So my FUNDAMENTAL desire may result in punishment and isolation? NOT good enough, John. What about the needed sense of comfort, integrity, and lack of contradiction. Not your fundamental desire, your specific actions. If you break the social covenant, you are punished. If you uphold it, you are generally rewarded with a more pleasant life free to seek your other desires. Integrity and lack of contradiction? You find this in your religious teachings? What my religious teachings? The question above, expanded, is "Do you find integrity and lack of contradiction in your religious instruction?" The religious information you have been taught. Is there integrity, whatever that means here. Is there lack of contradiction? I say that no organized religion offers either. All the sacred books have internal contradictions. Hominoid spesies are cannibalistic, violent, banging on the chest, sneaky, lying, racist, hating animals - put in a place where we can't be what we really are. You could have made this more emotional, I just can't imagine how. We behave just like all other predators with the solitary exception of having the tool-using capacity well-developed. Tools for manipulation with our opposable thumb and tools for manipulation like language. The charged descriptors you've used to characterize human behavior are all elements of primitive self-preservation imperatives. We eat to survive. We kill to eat. We practice stealth just like all predators. We deceive to conquer and, so, to live another day. We're wary of people who aren't like us because they might be unsuspected hazards; not members of our family/tribe/clan/village/town/city/state/country. All pro-survival characteristics in a less technological setting. The problem is that we've altered our environment so much that we've outstripped our evolutionary capacity. We've changed our world faster than we could change. So we still bear that brainstem that governs our primitive functions and we temper it with our civilizing influences. But both still exist and both are still strong. We are what we are all day, every day. It's just that we express it differently now that we live in cities and have essentially unlimited electric, mechanical and electronic power. In addition to that, hypertrophy of the human brain makes it susceptible to extreme variety of ferocious overwhelming desires (that includes sucking on the mammary gland AND MORE), and brings it awarenes of suffering, death etc. Please. This one-sided view serves no one well. Our relatively large brain isn't some homogeneous mass created yesterday. It has all the layers of animal development since there were brains. Much of our behavior is instinctual, hard-wired into place. Our "lizard" brain is that primitive, wary, violent, self-preserving contributor. Our developed forebrain creates technology, literature and society. And amplifies the unique characteristics we all have and lets us express them through language of all sorts. It isn't like our brains are one commonly-operating thing. Countries like USSR with nearly 100% of the population educated and taught atheistic concepts, starting elementary school or earlier, totally failed to produce religion-free societies. Why do you think this this so? You won't like my answers. Every society we know anything about has appealed to invisible forces to deal with things they didn't understand or couldn't control. So Aztecs cut hearts out of millions of conquered enemies to make it rain or make the sun shine. Shamans pour mineral salts into fires and take credit for green fire. Clergy, by whatever name, all through human history have been a caste apart. They say mass or preach from pulpits or dip people into water or cut off their foreskins. They've identified themselves with these invisible forces and asserted that only they can communicate with them. It more demonstrates that while 100 is the average IQ, it probably isn't enough. So all that lying and conniving you decry above is brought sharply into focus by the organizers and designers of religions. All the ritual, all the special clothing, all the restrictions, all the special privilege, all the gold and silver - are all there to exploit the superstitious fears of the common people and benefit the clergy-caste from that exploitation. It's all about power, money and sex. What else is there? Back to the basic question you raise. Why are so many people believers? Because it's too scary not to. Because there are so many things not fully understood that some comforting superbeing offers seeming rationality in an infinite and, therefore, incomprehensible universe. Because most people don't understand the reality of coincidence; of mathematics, of probability. Because most people would rather ascribe events to a plan or a design rather than the impersonality of the laws of physics. Because we're all primarily concerned with our own survival and minimizing hazard and maximizing benefit, as all living things are. So, not because there's any evidence for divinity; just because the universe is reduced to a more human scale if there's a daddy supervising it all. Pastorio As long as there are honest people with opposing views and needs, there can be neither. Integrity means oneness. Religion and religious belief is based on desire for these things, but nowhere are they externally delivered. We each choose that portion that pleases us. The bible is replete with contradiction and mutually exclusive conditions. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/bibleanalysis.html Pastorio |
#169
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Maximizing life expectancy/enjoyment
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#170
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Maximizing life expectancy/enjoyment
Bob Pastorio wrote:
The question above, expanded, is "Do you find integrity and lack of contradiction in your religious instruction?" The religious information you have been taught. Not sure what you imply - I'm not religious. Is there integrity, whatever that means here. Is there lack of contradiction? I say that no organized religion offers either. All the sacred books have internal contradictions. Contradictions in sacred books have nothing to do with contradictions in personal life which people seek to avoid. This is the same word yet there isn't necessarily a connection. I don't buy the IQ argument below. There have been observed some negative correlation between IQ and religious tendencies, however the subjects studied mostly included average young individuals who are likely to default to religion because of the traditions commonly accepted by society. If samples were selected from a country where atheism is the government policy, the relation could be reversed. Moreover, I highly suspect that even in Western predominantly Christian countries this relation is U-shaped, that is, the proportion of religious (in the broad sense) individuals among very high-IQ (and/or very well educated) individuals comes back high again. DZ Hominoid spesies are cannibalistic, violent, banging on the chest, sneaky, lying, racist, hating animals - put in a place where we can't be what we really are. You could have made this more emotional, I just can't imagine how. We behave just like all other predators with the solitary exception of having the tool-using capacity well-developed. Tools for manipulation with our opposable thumb and tools for manipulation like language. The charged descriptors you've used to characterize human behavior are all elements of primitive self-preservation imperatives. We eat to survive. We kill to eat. We practice stealth just like all predators. We deceive to conquer and, so, to live another day. We're wary of people who aren't like us because they might be unsuspected hazards; not members of our family/tribe/clan/village/town/city/state/country. All pro-survival characteristics in a less technological setting. The problem is that we've altered our environment so much that we've outstripped our evolutionary capacity. We've changed our world faster than we could change. So we still bear that brainstem that governs our primitive functions and we temper it with our civilizing influences. But both still exist and both are still strong. We are what we are all day, every day. It's just that we express it differently now that we live in cities and have essentially unlimited electric, mechanical and electronic power. In addition to that, hypertrophy of the human brain makes it susceptible to extreme variety of ferocious overwhelming desires (that includes sucking on the mammary gland AND MORE), and brings it awarenes of suffering, death etc. Please. This one-sided view serves no one well. Our relatively large brain isn't some homogeneous mass created yesterday. It has all the layers of animal development since there were brains. Much of our behavior is instinctual, hard-wired into place. Our "lizard" brain is that primitive, wary, violent, self-preserving contributor. Our developed forebrain creates technology, literature and society. And amplifies the unique characteristics we all have and lets us express them through language of all sorts. It isn't like our brains are one commonly-operating thing. Countries like USSR with nearly 100% of the population educated and taught atheistic concepts, starting elementary school or earlier, totally failed to produce religion-free societies. Why do you think this this so? You won't like my answers. Every society we know anything about has appealed to invisible forces to deal with things they didn't understand or couldn't control. So Aztecs cut hearts out of millions of conquered enemies to make it rain or make the sun shine. Shamans pour mineral salts into fires and take credit for green fire. Clergy, by whatever name, all through human history have been a caste apart. They say mass or preach from pulpits or dip people into water or cut off their foreskins. They've identified themselves with these invisible forces and asserted that only they can communicate with them. It more demonstrates that while 100 is the average IQ, it probably isn't enough. So all that lying and conniving you decry above is brought sharply into focus by the organizers and designers of religions. All the ritual, all the special clothing, all the restrictions, all the special privilege, all the gold and silver - are all there to exploit the superstitious fears of the common people and benefit the clergy-caste from that exploitation. It's all about power, money and sex. What else is there? Back to the basic question you raise. Why are so many people believers? Because it's too scary not to. Because there are so many things not fully understood that some comforting superbeing offers seeming rationality in an infinite and, therefore, incomprehensible universe. Because most people don't understand the reality of coincidence; of mathematics, of probability. Because most people would rather ascribe events to a plan or a design rather than the impersonality of the laws of physics. Because we're all primarily concerned with our own survival and minimizing hazard and maximizing benefit, as all living things are. So, not because there's any evidence for divinity; just because the universe is reduced to a more human scale if there's a daddy supervising it all. Pastorio As long as there are honest people with opposing views and needs, there can be neither. Integrity means oneness. Religion and religious belief is based on desire for these things, but nowhere are they externally delivered. We each choose that portion that pleases us. The bible is replete with contradiction and mutually exclusive conditions. http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/bibleanalysis.html Pastorio -- Wheel discovery department |
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