Fast track to ketosis

"Roger Zoul" writes:
I'm not sure I agree with you.

I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you to go
into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY point was
that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours of
exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.

Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.

Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the muscles
are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.

I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate. You
can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to vomit
but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its glycogen. It
won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast as a carb-up
could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.

So, there might be some finite time before that final step happens,
but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be accounted
for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would correspond
to depleted liver glycogen.

To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72 hour
period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a "fast track"
the OP wanted.

Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of
time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.

Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their diet
after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they eventually
go into ketosis.

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes:
||| I'm not sure I agree with you.
||
|| I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you to go
|| into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY point was
|| that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours of
|| exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
|| ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.
||
||| Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.
||
|| Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
|| muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
|| later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the muscles
|| are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.
||
|| I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
|| glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate.

I would guess that the liver can act quickly to keep BG from going low.
While you may not be able to speed its natural rate, you may be able to
encourage it to react.

You
|| can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to vomit
|| but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its glycogen. It
|| won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast as a carb-up
|| could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.

I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the muscles,
right?


||
||| So, there might be some finite time before that final step happens,
||| but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
||| Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be accounted
||| for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
||| time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would correspond
||| to depleted liver glycogen.
||
|| To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72 hour
|| period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a "fast
|| track" the OP wanted.

the sooner you deplete muscle glycogen, the quicker you enter ketosis,
assuming the liver is holding a lot of glycogen in the first place.

||
||| Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
||| the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
||| Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of
||| time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.
||
|| Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their diet
|| after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they eventually
|| go into ketosis.

I think one is close to being in ketosis at that point, as the liver would
begin dumping glycogen. At this point, ketosis is a certainty provided too
many carbs aren't reintroduced into the diet. Hence, it is my supposition
that this dumping period can be factored into the time to ketosis. So you
do X hours of exercise, maintain diet, and wait a brief time. That would in
effect minimize time to ketosis and would serve the OP's inquiry.

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes:
||| I'm not sure I agree with you.
||
|| I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you to go
|| into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY point was
|| that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours of
|| exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
|| ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.
||
||| Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.
||
|| Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
|| muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
|| later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the muscles
|| are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.
||
|| I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
|| glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate.

I would guess that the liver can act quickly to keep BG from going low.
While you may not be able to speed its natural rate, you may be able to
encourage it to react.

You
|| can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to vomit
|| but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its glycogen. It
|| won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast as a carb-up
|| could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.

I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the muscles,
right?


||
||| So, there might be some finite time before that final step happens,
||| but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
||| Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be accounted
||| for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
||| time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would correspond
||| to depleted liver glycogen.
||
|| To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72 hour
|| period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a "fast
|| track" the OP wanted.

the sooner you deplete muscle glycogen, the quicker you enter ketosis,
assuming the liver is holding a lot of glycogen in the first place.

||
||| Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
||| the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
||| Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of
||| time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.
||
|| Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their diet
|| after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they eventually
|| go into ketosis.

I think one is close to being in ketosis at that point, as the liver would
begin dumping glycogen. At this point, ketosis is a certainty provided too
many carbs aren't reintroduced into the diet. Hence, it is my supposition
that this dumping period can be factored into the time to ketosis. So you
do X hours of exercise, maintain diet, and wait a brief time. That would in
effect minimize time to ketosis and would serve the OP's inquiry.

Roger Zoul wrote:
DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes:
||| I'm not sure I agree with you.
||
|| I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you to go
|| into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY point was
|| that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours of
|| exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
|| ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.
||
||| Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.
||
|| Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
|| muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
|| later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the muscles
|| are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.
||
|| I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
|| glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate.

I would guess that the liver can act quickly to keep BG from going low.
While you may not be able to speed its natural rate, you may be able to
encourage it to react.

You
|| can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to vomit
|| but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its glycogen. It
|| won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast as a carb-up
|| could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.

I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the muscles,
right?


||
||| So, there might be some finite time before that final step happens,
||| but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
||| Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be accounted
||| for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
||| time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would correspond
||| to depleted liver glycogen.
||
|| To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72 hour
|| period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a "fast
|| track" the OP wanted.

the sooner you deplete muscle glycogen, the quicker you enter ketosis,
assuming the liver is holding a lot of glycogen in the first place.

||
||| Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
||| the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
||| Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of
||| time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.
||
|| Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their diet
|| after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they eventually
|| go into ketosis.

I think one is close to being in ketosis at that point, as the liver would
begin dumping glycogen. At this point, ketosis is a certainty provided too
many carbs aren't reintroduced into the diet. Hence, it is my supposition
that this dumping period can be factored into the time to ketosis. So you
do X hours of exercise, maintain diet, and wait a brief time. That would in
effect minimize time to ketosis and would serve the OP's inquiry.


Actually I knew that working your muscles to failure won't use all the
available glucose in your body, I was more interested in the time frame
of the cycle of using all the available muscle glucose, refilling it
with glucose from the liver and repeating until no more glucose is
present/ketosis.

Roger Zoul wrote:
DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes:
||| I'm not sure I agree with you.
||
|| I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you to go
|| into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY point was
|| that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours of
|| exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
|| ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.
||
||| Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.
||
|| Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
|| muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
|| later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the muscles
|| are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.
||
|| I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
|| glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate.

I would guess that the liver can act quickly to keep BG from going low.
While you may not be able to speed its natural rate, you may be able to
encourage it to react.

You
|| can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to vomit
|| but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its glycogen. It
|| won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast as a carb-up
|| could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.

I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the muscles,
right?


||
||| So, there might be some finite time before that final step happens,
||| but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
||| Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be accounted
||| for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
||| time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would correspond
||| to depleted liver glycogen.
||
|| To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72 hour
|| period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a "fast
|| track" the OP wanted.

the sooner you deplete muscle glycogen, the quicker you enter ketosis,
assuming the liver is holding a lot of glycogen in the first place.

||
||| Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
||| the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
||| Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of
||| time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.
||
|| Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their diet
|| after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they eventually
|| go into ketosis.

I think one is close to being in ketosis at that point, as the liver would
begin dumping glycogen. At this point, ketosis is a certainty provided too
many carbs aren't reintroduced into the diet. Hence, it is my supposition
that this dumping period can be factored into the time to ketosis. So you
do X hours of exercise, maintain diet, and wait a brief time. That would in
effect minimize time to ketosis and would serve the OP's inquiry.


Actually I knew that working your muscles to failure won't use all the
available glucose in your body, I was more interested in the time frame
of the cycle of using all the available muscle glucose, refilling it
with glucose from the liver and repeating until no more glucose is
present/ketosis.

"Roger Zoul" writes:
I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the muscles,
right?

Muscles hold about twice the glycogen as liver, 120g vs 70g.

Hence, it is my supposition that this dumping period can be factored
into the time to ketosis. So you do X hours of exercise, maintain
diet, and wait a brief time.

Yes, we agree! Stop agreeing with me! :-)

Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I
don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.

"Roger Zoul" writes:
I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the muscles,
right?

Muscles hold about twice the glycogen as liver, 120g vs 70g.

Hence, it is my supposition that this dumping period can be factored
into the time to ketosis. So you do X hours of exercise, maintain
diet, and wait a brief time.

Yes, we agree! Stop agreeing with me! :-)

Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I
don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.

Thanks for asking. I was asking my husband last night (really, wondering
out loud is a better way to put it), if I could do that, now that my
garden got a frost and is all dead.

(meaning no more corn on the cob).

Becky P.
www.family.solidrockpl.org

Thanks for asking. I was asking my husband last night (really, wondering
out loud is a better way to put it), if I could do that, now that my
garden got a frost and is all dead.

(meaning no more corn on the cob).

Becky P.
www.family.solidrockpl.org

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes:
||| I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the
||| muscles, right?
||
|| Muscles hold about twice the glycogen as liver, 120g vs 70g.
||
||| Hence, it is my supposition that this dumping period can be factored
||| into the time to ketosis. So you do X hours of exercise, maintain
||| diet, and wait a brief time.
||
|| Yes, we agree! Stop agreeing with me! :-)
||
|| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I
|| don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle.

Good idea....

I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like answered too!

I think the liver will be cleared of glycogen relatively quickly just based
on personal experience when trying to recover from a carb up.