Has just low-carb ever worked for anybody?

Most of us, me included, eventually seem to arrive at the conclusion that we
need to watch calories in order to lose weight very long term (beyond the
quick loss you get from just watching carbs the first 6 months or so).

I use low-carb to help reduce hunger and to keep my blood sugar under
control. It has benefits beyond weight loss.

I am curious, though. Is there anybody in the world who has ever gone from
very obese (say verging on or past 300 lb) to completely normal goal weight
by JUST reducing carbs and not minding calories at all?

Are plans, like Atkins, being deceptive when they talk about ketosis?

doug

"Doug Lerner" wrote in message
...
Most of us, me included, eventually seem to arrive at the conclusion that
we
need to watch calories in order to lose weight very long term (beyond the
quick loss you get from just watching carbs the first 6 months or so).

I use low-carb to help reduce hunger and to keep my blood sugar under
control. It has benefits beyond weight loss.

I am curious, though. Is there anybody in the world who has ever gone from
very obese (say verging on or past 300 lb) to completely normal goal
weight
by JUST reducing carbs and not minding calories at all?

Are plans, like Atkins, being deceptive when they talk about ketosis?

doug


I have just watched the Horizon documentary this week (it only screened in
NZ on Tues) and I'm coming quickly to agreeing with the points you're
making. I don't think that Atkins was being deliberately deceptive - the
thinking on 'protein' being the single most important factor in suppressing
appetite in low-carbers was something the scientists were just starting to
report on when Atkins passed away (or that is what I understood from the
closing words of the doco).

To me, replacing high calorie carbs with moderate calorie protein (which
also fills me up) makes perfect sense to me. I know I've been able to
control my eating better on a low carb diet because I have felt satiated
with the protein I have consumed. I am eating less and I think I'm
controlling the calorie intake better.

I do question the ketosis factor now, after watching the doco. Perhaps for
me the high protein/low calorie thing is going to work for me......but I
shall wait and see. I have only been following this WOE for four weeks - I
don't claim to know as much as many of the long-term low carbers in this
group - this is just coming from a newbie's musings.

I want to be able to eat less.......that's the bottom line.

Regards

Kath

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPa...28252a_fs.html



"katp" wrote in message ...

"Doug Lerner" wrote in message
...
Most of us, me included, eventually seem to arrive at the conclusion
that
we
need to watch calories in order to lose weight very long term (beyond
the
quick loss you get from just watching carbs the first 6 months or so).

I use low-carb to help reduce hunger and to keep my blood sugar under
control. It has benefits beyond weight loss.

I am curious, though. Is there anybody in the world who has ever gone
from
very obese (say verging on or past 300 lb) to completely normal goal
weight
by JUST reducing carbs and not minding calories at all?

Are plans, like Atkins, being deceptive when they talk about ketosis?

doug


I have just watched the Horizon documentary this week (it only screened in
NZ on Tues) and I'm coming quickly to agreeing with the points you're
making. I don't think that Atkins was being deliberately deceptive - the
thinking on 'protein' being the single most important factor in
suppressing
appetite in low-carbers was something the scientists were just starting to
report on when Atkins passed away (or that is what I understood from the
closing words of the doco).

To me, replacing high calorie carbs with moderate calorie protein (which
also fills me up) makes perfect sense to me. I know I've been able to
control my eating better on a low carb diet because I have felt satiated
with the protein I have consumed. I am eating less and I think I'm
controlling the calorie intake better.

I do question the ketosis factor now, after watching the doco. Perhaps for
me the high protein/low calorie thing is going to work for me......but I
shall wait and see. I have only been following this WOE for four weeks - I

don't claim to know as much as many of the long-term low carbers in this
group - this is just coming from a newbie's musings.

I want to be able to eat less.......that's the bottom line.

Regards

Kath

That's a good article, and is in line with my current thinking as well.

doug

On 3/25/04 6:46 PM, in article ,
"Laurence" lharris@nwlinkDOTcom wrote:

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPa...v428/n6980/ful
l/428252a_fs.html



"katp" wrote in message ...

"Doug Lerner" wrote in message
...
Most of us, me included, eventually seem to arrive at the conclusion
that
we
need to watch calories in order to lose weight very long term (beyond
the
quick loss you get from just watching carbs the first 6 months or so).

I use low-carb to help reduce hunger and to keep my blood sugar under
control. It has benefits beyond weight loss.

I am curious, though. Is there anybody in the world who has ever gone
from
very obese (say verging on or past 300 lb) to completely normal goal
weight
by JUST reducing carbs and not minding calories at all?

Are plans, like Atkins, being deceptive when they talk about ketosis?

doug

I agree with the horizon programme. If you stop eating fruit/pasta/rice and
replace it with heavy cream whipped up with splenda then you have to be
kidding yourself if you think weight loss will follow.

I did atkins for a year, lost 42lbs, reached target, but mainly because the
diet controlled my appetite well, and the strict rules mean you cant even
entertain the idea of eating junk food. The effect on my blood sugar and
mood has been great and my colesterol went down to 4.4, its great to see
that eggs have become a good food again with little effect on colesterol,
the amount I have eaten, its a big relief.

A load of these "Jello cheese cake with macadamia nut base recipe" posts
make me lol, or pork rinds with splenda make a great snack, urghh they just
aint getting the point.

I still eat LC during the week as I feel good, just eat what the hell I want
on Satudays, still lose a couple of pounds a month.

--
"One way to stop a runaway horse is to bet on him."
Jeffrey Bernard.
"Doug Lerner" wrote in message
...
That's a good article, and is in line with my current thinking as well.

doug

On 3/25/04 6:46 PM, in article ,
"Laurence" lharris@nwlinkDOTcom wrote:


http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPa...l/v428/n6980/f
ul
l/428252a_fs.html



"katp" wrote in message
...

"Doug Lerner" wrote in message
...
Most of us, me included, eventually seem to arrive at the conclusion
that
we
need to watch calories in order to lose weight very long term (beyond
the
quick loss you get from just watching carbs the first 6 months or so).

I use low-carb to help reduce hunger and to keep my blood sugar under
control. It has benefits beyond weight loss.

I am curious, though. Is there anybody in the world who has ever gone
from
very obese (say verging on or past 300 lb) to completely normal goal
weight
by JUST reducing carbs and not minding calories at all?

Are plans, like Atkins, being deceptive when they talk about ketosis?

doug

Doug Lerner wrote:
:: Most of us, me included, eventually seem to arrive at the conclusion
:: that we need to watch calories in order to lose weight very long
:: term (beyond the quick loss you get from just watching carbs the
:: first 6 months or so).
::
:: I use low-carb to help reduce hunger and to keep my blood sugar under
:: control. It has benefits beyond weight loss.
::
:: I am curious, though. Is there anybody in the world who has ever
:: gone from very obese (say verging on or past 300 lb) to completely
:: normal goal weight by JUST reducing carbs and not minding calories
:: at all?

It's quite possible, imo, to lose weight from very obese to normal by just
reducing carbs. But what you have to do, imo, is be willing to go hungry
until you get there (which may involve exercising a lot, too). With the
popular notion that going hungry is such a horrible thing, it becomes
difficult for most people to get to normal weight without counting. But
that doesn't mean it can't be done, it's just that those who do it must have
a certain mental focus that may be hard to come by with today's values.

::
:: Are plans, like Atkins, being deceptive when they talk about ketosis?
::

The mere talking about ketosis isn't being deceptive.....it depends on what
is said about and attributed to ketosis. If the message is that ketosis is
somehow a magical weightloss miracle, then that is certainly deceptive. Of
course, I do think LCing in general is a miracle weight loss thing for me,
at least, because with it my appetite finally comes under control and I can
then apply the little will power I have

There are actually millions of people losing lots of weight on this
diet that have never cracked a book or visited a newsgroup. Yes, it
works. Many of them actually increased their calorie intake as they
were trying a little low fat but miserable and cheating all the time.
They started chowing down the fatty bacon and steaks and ribs and lost
a ton of weight.

Lipolysis is a fact, not fiction. I suspect many in this newsgroup
are so restricting the calories that there is not enough fat in their
diet for lipolsis to work.


Pj





On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:35:35 +0900, Doug Lerner
wrote:

Most of us, me included, eventually seem to arrive at the conclusion that we
need to watch calories in order to lose weight very long term (beyond the
quick loss you get from just watching carbs the first 6 months or so).

I use low-carb to help reduce hunger and to keep my blood sugar under
control. It has benefits beyond weight loss.

I am curious, though. Is there anybody in the world who has ever gone from
very obese (say verging on or past 300 lb) to completely normal goal weight
by JUST reducing carbs and not minding calories at all?

Are plans, like Atkins, being deceptive when they talk about ketosis?

doug

"katp" wrote in message
...

"Doug Lerner" wrote in message
...
Most of us, me included, eventually seem to arrive at the conclusion
that
we
need to watch calories in order to lose weight very long term (beyond
the
quick loss you get from just watching carbs the first 6 months or so).

I use low-carb to help reduce hunger and to keep my blood sugar under
control. It has benefits beyond weight loss.

I am curious, though. Is there anybody in the world who has ever gone
from
very obese (say verging on or past 300 lb) to completely normal goal
weight
by JUST reducing carbs and not minding calories at all?

Are plans, like Atkins, being deceptive when they talk about ketosis?

doug



"Laurence" lharris@nwlinkDOTcom wrote in message
...

http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPa...28252a_fs.html


http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...3-lowcarb.html

And this study does show a clear benefit for LC over LF - even when more
calories were consumed. Granted it was on a small group, we'll have to wait
until someone does a study with a larger sample group to see if it holds up
over a bigger group. I think it will.

So is the benefit ketosis, or is it just that it takes more calories to
digest protein and fat than carbs? Or is it something else entirely? It
may be years before anyone has a real, verifiable answer to that question.

I don't think Atkins was being deceptive about ketosis - I think that he was
just not clear that calories still count. He did make statements that would
lead one to believe that at some point, if you are not losing, you're going
to have to count them - because he said things like that the Atkins plan was
not a license to stuff yourself silly. So beyond a definition of overeating
purely by volume (which is kind of meaningless - a cup of cream a cup of
water), the only real measure of overeating would be caloric intake, right?
And to know how many calories you're consuming, at some point you are going
to have to track them. So while he said that 'you don't have to count
calories', I think he should have said 'you don't have to count calories
_unless_ you're not losing weight while staying under your carb limit'. And
IMO he basically did say the latter as well, just not in as black-and-white
a way as that.

I think the only real deception to Atkins is the idea that ketosis only
burns your bodyfat and not also dietary fat. I don't remember whether
that's explicitly said or just implied, but the book does give the idea
(wrongly, IMO) that if you're in ketosis and indicating on the ketostix, all
the indication is indication of bodyfat burned and is not related to dietary
fat consumed. And I would say that is incorrect - I can make my ketostix go
from 'trace' to 'high' by just upping my fat intake for a meal.

To answer your question - I did not count calories for the first nine months
or so. I lost around 5.5lbs/mo from April to November, then stalled from
mid-Nov to mid-Feb (the stall occurred at a weight that had always been a
plateau for me previously), then resumed loss without making any changes -
and right after the stall broke is when I started counting calories, out of
curiosity. I found that I was averaging 1500-1800 daily eating the way I'd
been eating. I counted them for about a month, then stopped because I'd
accomplished what I wanted to accomplish (seeing how many calories I was
averaging). Right now I'm not tracking carbs either, because I'm eating the
same things I was eating when I was tracking them religiously, so I know I'm
staying under 40g/day. I probably won't start tracking them again until I
get to pre-maintenance and/or unless I stall or regain.

Stargazer
Atkins since Apr '03
192/147/140

On 3/25/04 9:07 PM, in article ,
"Stargazer" wrote:

I think the only real deception to Atkins is the idea that ketosis only
burns your bodyfat and not also dietary fat.

I'd like to narrow in on this point. That *is* the purpose of Atkins raising
the subject of ketosis, isn't it?

If ketosis did what Atkins claims it does then it seems that dietary fat can
be ignored and you can pig out as much as you want. But you can't, so it
isn't right. Right?

doug

I suspect you are right about not ignoring dietary fat as well. Too many
calories in will probably prevent burning body fat. But it is easier to eat
less when you aren't hungering after fat to eat.

Here is a really good in depth coverage of more than anybody ever wanted to
know about biochemistry:

http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/home.html





"Doug Lerner" wrote in message
...
On 3/25/04 9:07 PM, in article ,
"Stargazer" wrote:

I think the only real deception to Atkins is the idea that ketosis only
burns your bodyfat and not also dietary fat.

I'd like to narrow in on this point. That *is* the purpose of Atkins
raising
the subject of ketosis, isn't it?

If ketosis did what Atkins claims it does then it seems that dietary fat
can
be ignored and you can pig out as much as you want. But you can't, so it
isn't right. Right?

doug