Back from being lost at sea (long report)

Doug Lerner wrote:
|| On 9/15/04 11:43 AM, in article ,
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||
||| Doug Lerner wrote:
||||| I'll check that out. You dip the strips into your blood or
||||| something like that? ugh!
|||||
|||
||| We've discussed this in the past, haven't we? I thought I
||| volunteered to buy some strips and send them to you. Then, as I
||| recall, you said you had a sister who could do that. Perhaps I'm
||| mistaken.
||
|| I don't recall that. Thanks for the offer though. I do have a sister
|| who could buy it for me, so you may be right!

I thought maybe I dreamed it all....and that is a scary thought!

Doug Lerner wrote:
|| On 9/15/04 11:43 AM, in article ,
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||
||| Doug Lerner wrote:
||||| I'll check that out. You dip the strips into your blood or
||||| something like that? ugh!
|||||
|||
||| We've discussed this in the past, haven't we? I thought I
||| volunteered to buy some strips and send them to you. Then, as I
||| recall, you said you had a sister who could do that. Perhaps I'm
||| mistaken.
||
|| I don't recall that. Thanks for the offer though. I do have a sister
|| who could buy it for me, so you may be right!

I thought maybe I dreamed it all....and that is a scary thought!

Doug Lerner wrote:
|| On 9/15/04 11:29 AM, in article ,
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||
||| No....low cal is eating significantly below your maintenance
||| (various slants would be not restricting any food group, or
||| restricting fat, or restricting carbs, but it's all low cal)....as
||| you lose weight, your maintenance lowers. So, as long as you're
||| not forever losing weight, you're not going to always be doing low
||| cal. Your weight loss slows if you don't continue to drop cals.
||| Finally, you will drift towards your maintenance calories - which
||| is NOT low cal. The sad truth is that you won't be able to eat
||| like your (not you specifically) fat self.
||
|| Ah. I disagree with you here. I think eating your maintenance level
|| of calories is the way to go - from the start - even if it means a
|| slower rate of weight loss.

No way. If you have a lot of weight to lose, this could be very, very
painful.

||
|| I'm eating 2000 calories per day. My idea is to completely change my
|| lifestyle and get used to that because if I eat more than that I'll
|| gain weight later on.

What? By definition, if you eat maintenance level of calories, you'll
maintain weight. So there is no gaining weight later on. But if you eat at
maintenance for some weight you hope to get to, you may never reach that
weight if you have a lot of weight to lose because you're carrying too much
fat around and signficantly undereating creates stress. It will work,
however, if you only have a relatively small amount to lose.

||
|| So isn't it best to start out with and get used to a maintenance
|| level of calories at the beginning? Wouldn't that make it easier to
|| stick with rather than a very low level of calories, like 1500/day?
||

No. The recommended method is to create a moderate deficit like 500
kcal/day. You can get half of that from calorie restriction and the other
half from exercise. Do that for a week and you'll lost a pound. As you
lose more weight, your total calorie requirements decrease, so you slowly
eat less, because your body needs less. You taper into it rather than
trying some cold turkey approach. Weight loss typically slows way down as
you approach your correct weight, so you have plenty of time to adapt to
eating less food.

Your entire approach explains why you have such trouble, doug. It is quite
clear to me know.

Doug Lerner wrote:
|| On 9/15/04 11:29 AM, in article ,
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||
||| No....low cal is eating significantly below your maintenance
||| (various slants would be not restricting any food group, or
||| restricting fat, or restricting carbs, but it's all low cal)....as
||| you lose weight, your maintenance lowers. So, as long as you're
||| not forever losing weight, you're not going to always be doing low
||| cal. Your weight loss slows if you don't continue to drop cals.
||| Finally, you will drift towards your maintenance calories - which
||| is NOT low cal. The sad truth is that you won't be able to eat
||| like your (not you specifically) fat self.
||
|| Ah. I disagree with you here. I think eating your maintenance level
|| of calories is the way to go - from the start - even if it means a
|| slower rate of weight loss.

No way. If you have a lot of weight to lose, this could be very, very
painful.

||
|| I'm eating 2000 calories per day. My idea is to completely change my
|| lifestyle and get used to that because if I eat more than that I'll
|| gain weight later on.

What? By definition, if you eat maintenance level of calories, you'll
maintain weight. So there is no gaining weight later on. But if you eat at
maintenance for some weight you hope to get to, you may never reach that
weight if you have a lot of weight to lose because you're carrying too much
fat around and signficantly undereating creates stress. It will work,
however, if you only have a relatively small amount to lose.

||
|| So isn't it best to start out with and get used to a maintenance
|| level of calories at the beginning? Wouldn't that make it easier to
|| stick with rather than a very low level of calories, like 1500/day?
||

No. The recommended method is to create a moderate deficit like 500
kcal/day. You can get half of that from calorie restriction and the other
half from exercise. Do that for a week and you'll lost a pound. As you
lose more weight, your total calorie requirements decrease, so you slowly
eat less, because your body needs less. You taper into it rather than
trying some cold turkey approach. Weight loss typically slows way down as
you approach your correct weight, so you have plenty of time to adapt to
eating less food.

Your entire approach explains why you have such trouble, doug. It is quite
clear to me know.

Doug Lerner wrote:
|| On 9/15/04 11:32 AM, in article ,
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||
||||| Maybe I should clarify. I would add "with reasonable variety and
||||| something you can maintain for the rest of your life".
|||
||| Do you want to lose weight or not? It is possible to have a lot of
||| variety on a low-cal, low carb diet. Again, as you lower your body
||| weight your requirement for food decreases. If it doesn't, then
||| you're guaranteed to regain the weight if you don't offset those
||| calories by exercise.
||
|| According to my measurements (I have spreadsheets taken over several
|| weeks, chopping off the first week) my body seems to use about 12
|| calories per pound of weight.
||
|| So if I eat 2000 calories per day and keep my currently level of
|| exercise, I should eventually approach 2000/12 = 167 lb = 75 kg.
|| That would be a BMI for me of 24.7, which would be in the "normal"
|| weight range.
||
|| So what's wrong with that way of thinking?

Nothing wrong with that as long as eating 2000 kcals is not a severe deficit
for you. I don't remember who much you weight, but it seems like 117kg or
so. So (117-75)/117=.36 which seems like a lot of deficit. A better approach
is just to think in terms of losing a pound a week and creating a deficit to
achieve. As you get lighter, your totals will drop, so you'll gradually
approach the correct amount.



||
|| doug

Doug Lerner wrote:
|| On 9/15/04 11:32 AM, in article ,
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||
||||| Maybe I should clarify. I would add "with reasonable variety and
||||| something you can maintain for the rest of your life".
|||
||| Do you want to lose weight or not? It is possible to have a lot of
||| variety on a low-cal, low carb diet. Again, as you lower your body
||| weight your requirement for food decreases. If it doesn't, then
||| you're guaranteed to regain the weight if you don't offset those
||| calories by exercise.
||
|| According to my measurements (I have spreadsheets taken over several
|| weeks, chopping off the first week) my body seems to use about 12
|| calories per pound of weight.
||
|| So if I eat 2000 calories per day and keep my currently level of
|| exercise, I should eventually approach 2000/12 = 167 lb = 75 kg.
|| That would be a BMI for me of 24.7, which would be in the "normal"
|| weight range.
||
|| So what's wrong with that way of thinking?

Nothing wrong with that as long as eating 2000 kcals is not a severe deficit
for you. I don't remember who much you weight, but it seems like 117kg or
so. So (117-75)/117=.36 which seems like a lot of deficit. A better approach
is just to think in terms of losing a pound a week and creating a deficit to
achieve. As you get lighter, your totals will drop, so you'll gradually
approach the correct amount.



||
|| doug

Doug Lerner wrote:
|| On 9/15/04 11:32 AM, in article ,
|| "Roger Zoul" wrote:
||
||||| Maybe I should clarify. I would add "with reasonable variety and
||||| something you can maintain for the rest of your life".
|||
||| Do you want to lose weight or not? It is possible to have a lot of
||| variety on a low-cal, low carb diet. Again, as you lower your body
||| weight your requirement for food decreases. If it doesn't, then
||| you're guaranteed to regain the weight if you don't offset those
||| calories by exercise.
||
|| According to my measurements (I have spreadsheets taken over several
|| weeks, chopping off the first week) my body seems to use about 12
|| calories per pound of weight.
||
|| So if I eat 2000 calories per day and keep my currently level of
|| exercise, I should eventually approach 2000/12 = 167 lb = 75 kg.
|| That would be a BMI for me of 24.7, which would be in the "normal"
|| weight range.
||
|| So what's wrong with that way of thinking?

Nothing wrong with that as long as eating 2000 kcals is not a severe deficit
for you. I don't remember who much you weight, but it seems like 117kg or
so. So (117-75)/117=.36 which seems like a lot of deficit. A better approach
is just to think in terms of losing a pound a week and creating a deficit to
achieve. As you get lighter, your totals will drop, so you'll gradually
approach the correct amount.



||
|| doug

Doug Lerner wrote:
|| Thanks for another informative note, Iggy.
||
|| I wonder which grains and added sugars I might cut out. Here is what
|| I ate yesterday (remember, some store options in the U.S. are not
|| available here):

I cannot believe you're asking such a question, doug. Do you really not
know?

||
|| 2 eggs + cottage cheese (245 cal, 5.4 carb)
||
|| sashimi (207 cal, 0 carb)
||
|| zaru soba (438 cal, 45 carb)
||
|| takebue (a processed fish snack) (169 cal, 20 carb)
||
|| blueberry yogurt (138 cal, 20 carbs) note - no sugar free yogurt
|| available here
||
|| small can of tomato juice for sauce (39 cal, 8 carb)
||
|| fresh fish for stew (245 cal, 0 carb)
||
|| mushrooms and green peppers chopped up for stew (40 cal, 8 carb)
||
|| small ear of corn (80 cal, 20 carb)
||
|| small microwave pasta dish (258 cal, 45 carb)
||
|| Total for day: 1988 cal, about 151 carbs)
||
|| doug
||
|| On 9/15/04 12:38 PM, in article ,
|| "Ignoramus13229" wrote:
||
||||
|||| According to my measurements (I have spreadsheets taken over
|||| several weeks, chopping off the first week) my body seems to use
|||| about 12 calories per pound of weight.
||||
|||| So if I eat 2000 calories per day and keep my currently level of
|||| exercise, I should eventually approach 2000/12 = 167 lb = 75 kg.
|||| That would be a BMI for me of 24.7, which would be in the "normal"
|||| weight range.
||||
|||| So what's wrong with that way of thinking?
||||
|||| doug
||||
|||
||| there is nothing wrong with this way of thinking. That was exactly
||| what I did to lose weight, so it must be right g
|||
||| May I suggest trying to cut out grains/starches and added sugars
||| from
||| your diet, and eat pretty much everything else, within your well
||| chosen 2000 calorie budget?
|||
||| Meat, fish, vegetables, fruits, eggs, nuts, etc etc, there is quite
||| a
||| bit of variety and yet it is more suitable for a diabetic and would
||| likely lower your insulin levels.
|||
||| Give it a thought Doug, mull it etc. There is not that many
||| nutrients
||| that are naturally present in any grains that you cannot get from
||| elsewhere. Enriched flours have some vitamins added (such as folic
||| acid and niacin), but you can, as well, take an honest supplement
||| instead of eating the grains containing same supplements.
|||
||| The B vitamins are available from meat.
||| http://www.hoptechno.com/book29d.htm
|||
||| As you said, you may limit your calories to lose weight, but without
||| added sugars and starches, you might be less hungry.
|||
||| The key is finding what works for you...
|||
||| i

Doug Lerner wrote:
|| Thanks for another informative note, Iggy.
||
|| I wonder which grains and added sugars I might cut out. Here is what
|| I ate yesterday (remember, some store options in the U.S. are not
|| available here):

I cannot believe you're asking such a question, doug. Do you really not
know?

||
|| 2 eggs + cottage cheese (245 cal, 5.4 carb)
||
|| sashimi (207 cal, 0 carb)
||
|| zaru soba (438 cal, 45 carb)
||
|| takebue (a processed fish snack) (169 cal, 20 carb)
||
|| blueberry yogurt (138 cal, 20 carbs) note - no sugar free yogurt
|| available here
||
|| small can of tomato juice for sauce (39 cal, 8 carb)
||
|| fresh fish for stew (245 cal, 0 carb)
||
|| mushrooms and green peppers chopped up for stew (40 cal, 8 carb)
||
|| small ear of corn (80 cal, 20 carb)
||
|| small microwave pasta dish (258 cal, 45 carb)
||
|| Total for day: 1988 cal, about 151 carbs)
||
|| doug
||
|| On 9/15/04 12:38 PM, in article ,
|| "Ignoramus13229" wrote:
||
||||
|||| According to my measurements (I have spreadsheets taken over
|||| several weeks, chopping off the first week) my body seems to use
|||| about 12 calories per pound of weight.
||||
|||| So if I eat 2000 calories per day and keep my currently level of
|||| exercise, I should eventually approach 2000/12 = 167 lb = 75 kg.
|||| That would be a BMI for me of 24.7, which would be in the "normal"
|||| weight range.
||||
|||| So what's wrong with that way of thinking?
||||
|||| doug
||||
|||
||| there is nothing wrong with this way of thinking. That was exactly
||| what I did to lose weight, so it must be right g
|||
||| May I suggest trying to cut out grains/starches and added sugars
||| from
||| your diet, and eat pretty much everything else, within your well
||| chosen 2000 calorie budget?
|||
||| Meat, fish, vegetables, fruits, eggs, nuts, etc etc, there is quite
||| a
||| bit of variety and yet it is more suitable for a diabetic and would
||| likely lower your insulin levels.
|||
||| Give it a thought Doug, mull it etc. There is not that many
||| nutrients
||| that are naturally present in any grains that you cannot get from
||| elsewhere. Enriched flours have some vitamins added (such as folic
||| acid and niacin), but you can, as well, take an honest supplement
||| instead of eating the grains containing same supplements.
|||
||| The B vitamins are available from meat.
||| http://www.hoptechno.com/book29d.htm
|||
||| As you said, you may limit your calories to lose weight, but without
||| added sugars and starches, you might be less hungry.
|||
||| The key is finding what works for you...
|||
||| i

Ignoramus13229 wrote:
|| In article , Doug Lerner wrote:
||| On 9/15/04 11:54 AM, in article ,
||| "Ignoramus13229" wrote:
|||
|||| Does such a low carb diet have to be low cal?
|||
||| To lose weight long term, I think so. At least my own body says so.
|||
|||| Do you think that you
|||| could not get away with eating more calories, if you eat low carb?
|||
||| No. Not according to my own data.
|||
|||| This assumes, of course, that all digestible carbs are counted, not
|||| just "net carbs".
||||
|||| The reason for my question is that on a low carb diet, I,
|||| personally,
|||| so far, can get away with eating more calories.
|||
||| I was able to for a while too. But after six months it seems to
||| even out to just "a calorie is a calorie".
|||
||| doug
|||
|||
||
|| That's what concerns me also, that after a while my body will somehow
|| become better at digesting fat and so the benefit of low carbing
|| would
|| be lost. Then I would go back to what I was eating before switch to
|| paleo, I think, being mindful to increase my carbs slowly.

Bah....your body already knows how to digest fat - it been doing it for
years. This is dietary mumbo-jumbo.