Protein requirements; excellent article

Wildbilly wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Wildbilly wrote:

We would probably eat less meat, if we had to kill our own.

Societies that hunt for their meat tend to eat a higher percentage of
their calories from meat than a lot of modern cultures. With the
existance of "modern" ideas (under 5K years old ;^) like vegitarian
eating the trend is the opposite of your suggestion.

You didn't read the article by Jared Diamond, did you?

Standard issue rule for any on-line activity - Don't follow any URL you
didn't ask for unless there is enough quoted from it to know following
it will be safe from malware and through the reading effort.

When posting any URL never expect anyone to follow it without posting
enough exerp from it to justify folks follow the link. In a world of
spyware and computer viruses that's how it works. you did not post any
justification at all for following the link and you posted the link
more than once making it even more problematic.

So - Is that the Diamond of "Fit for Life"? He has his good points and
bad points. I think he's intolerant of milk proteins given his
vociferous objection to all dairy. If I were intolerant of milk
proteins I might be a low fatter with an attitude against dairy.
Instead I'm wheat intolerant and an inconsistant low carber with an
attitude against viewing grass seeds as a necessary staple.

Hunter-gatherers were healthier than we are,

Yet more reason to doubt any claim that eating grain is beneficial -
Societies that start eating grain as a staple see a large decrease in
health levels. The reasons for grain are economic not medical.

In article ,
Doug Freyburger wrote:

Wildbilly wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Wildbilly wrote:

We would probably eat less meat, if we had to kill our own.

Societies that hunt for their meat tend to eat a higher percentage of
their calories from meat than a lot of modern cultures. With the
existance of "modern" ideas (under 5K years old ;^) like vegitarian
eating the trend is the opposite of your suggestion.

You didn't read the article by Jared Diamond, did you?

Standard issue rule for any on-line activity - Don't follow any URL you
didn't ask for unless there is enough quoted from it to know following
it will be safe from malware and through the reading effort.
Whatever. This is a PDF from my own computer.

When posting any URL never expect anyone to follow it without posting
enough exerp from it to justify folks follow the link. In a world of
spyware and computer viruses that's how it works. you did not post any
justification at all for following the link and you posted the link
more than once making it even more problematic.

So - Is that the Diamond of "Fit for Life"?
Nooo, this is the Diamond of "Guns, Germs, and Steel".
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Ste...393038912/ref=
sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258784083&sr=1-1

He has his good points and
bad points. I think he's intolerant of milk proteins given his
vociferous objection to all dairy. If I were intolerant of milk
proteins I might be a low fatter with an attitude against dairy.
Instead I'm wheat intolerant and an inconsistant low carber with an
attitude against viewing grass seeds as a necessary staple.

Hunter-gatherers were healthier than we are,

Yet more reason to doubt any claim that eating grain is beneficial -
Societies that start eating grain as a staple see a large decrease in
health levels. The reasons for grain are economic not medical.


"The Worst Mistake In The History Of The Human Race"
by Jared Diamond, Prof. UCLA School of Medicine
Discover-May 1987, pp. 64-66
To science we owe dramatic changes in our smug self-image. Astronomy
taught
us that our Earth isn't the center of the universe but merely one of
billions of heavenly
bodies. From biology we learned that we weren't specially created by God
but evolved
along with millions of other species. Now archaeology is demolishing
another sacred
belief: that human history over the past million years has been a long
tale of progress. In
particular, recent discoveries suggest that the adoption of agriculture,
supposedly our
most decisive step toward a better life, was in many ways a catastrophe
from which we
have never recovered. With agriculture came the gross social and sexual
inequality, the
disease and despotism,that curse our existence.
At first, the evidence against this revisionist interpretation will
strike twentieth
century Americans as irrefutable. We're better off in almost every
respect than people of
the Middle Ages who in turn had it easier than cavemen, who in turn were
better off than
apes. Just count our advantages. We enjoy the most abundant and varied
foods, the best
tools and material goods, some of the longest and healthiest lives, in
history. Most of us
are safe from starvation and predators. We get our energy from oil and
machines, not
from our sweat. What neo-Luddite among us would trade his life for that
of a medieval
peasant, a caveman, or an ape?
For most of our history we supported ourselves by hunting and gathering:
we
hunted wild animals and foraged for wild plants. It's a life that
philosophers have
traditionally regarded as nasty, brutish, and short. Since no food is
grown and little is
stored, there is (in this view) no respite from the struggle that starts
anew each day to find
wild foods and avoid starving. Our escape from this misery was
facilitated only 10,000
years ago, when in different parts of the world people began to
domesticate plants and
animals. The agricultural revolution gradually spread until today it's
nearly universal and
few tribes of hunter-gatherers survive.
From the progressivist perspective on which I was brought
up to ask "Why did almost all our hunter-gatherer ancestors adopt
agriculture?" is silly. Of course they adopted it because agriculture
is an efficient way to get more food for less work. Planted crops
yield far more tons per acre than roots and berries. Just imagine a
band of savages, exhausted from searching for nuts or chasing wild
animals, suddenly gazing for the first time at a fruit-laden orchard
or a pasture full of sheep. How many milliseconds do you think it
would take them to appreciate the advantages of agriculture?
The progressivist party line sometimes even goes so far as to
credit agriculture with the remarkable flowering of art that has taken
place over the past few thousand years. Since crops can be stored,
and since it takes less time to pick food from a garden than to find it
in the wild,
agriculture gave us free time that hunter-gatherers never had. Thus it
was agriculture that
enabled us to build the Parthenon and compose the B-minor Mass.
While the case for the progressivist view seems overwhelming, it's hard
to prove.
How do you show that the lives of people 10,000 years ago got better
when they
abandoned hunting and gathering for farming? Until recently,
archaeologists had to resort
to indirect tests, whose results (surprisingly) failed to support the
progressivist view.
Here's one example of an indirect test: Are twentieth century
hunter-gatherers really
worse off than farmers? Scattered throughout the world, several dozen
groups of socalled
primitive people, like the Kalahari Bushmen, continue to support
themselves that
way. It turns out that these people have plenty of leisure time, sleep a
good deal, and
work less hard than their farming neighbors. For instance, the average
time devoted each
week to obtaining food is only twelve to nineteen hours for one group of
Bushmen,
fourteen hours or less for the Hadza nomads of Tanzania. One Bushman,
when asked
why he hadn't emulated neighboring tribes by adopting agriculture,
replied, "Why should
we, when there are so many mongongo nuts in the world?"
While farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and
potatoes, the
mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving
hunter-gatherers provides more
protein and a better balance of other nutrients. In one study, the
Bushmen's average daily
food intake (during a month when food was plentiful) was 2,140 calories
and ninety-three
grams of protein, considerably greater than the recommended daily
allowance for people
of their size. It's almost inconceivable that Bushmen, who eat
seventy-five or so wild
plants, could die of starvation the way hundreds of thousands of Irish
farmers and their
families did during the potato famine of the 1840s.
So the lives of at least the surviving hunter-gatherers aren't nasty and
brutish,
even though farmers have pushed them into some of the world's worst real
estate. But
modem huntergatherer societies that have rubbed shoulders with farming
societies for
thousands of years don't tell us about conditions before the
agricultural revolution. The
progressivist view is really making a claim about the distant past: that
the lives of
primitive people improved when they switched from gathering to farming.
Archaeologists can date that switch by distinguishing remains of wild
plants and animals
from those of domesticated ones in prehistoric garbage dumps.
How can one deduce the health of the prehistoric garbage makers, and
thereby
directly test the progressivist view? That question has become
answerable only in recent
years, in .part through the newly emerging techniques of paleopathology,
the study of
signs of disease in the remains of ancient peoples.
In some lucky situations, the paleopathologist has almost as much
material to
study as a pathologist today. For example, archaeologists in the Chilean
deserts founds
well preserved' mummies whose medical conditions at time of death could
be determined
by autopsy (Discover, October). And feces of long-dead Indians who lived
in dry caves in
Nevada remain sufficiently well preserved to be examined for hookworm
and other
parasites.
Usually the only human remains available for study are skeletons, but
they permit
a surprising number of deductions. To begin with, a skeleton reveals its
owner's sex,
weight, and approximate age. In the few cases where there are many
skeletons, one can
construct mortality tables like the ones life insurance companies use to
calculate expected
life span and risk of death at any given age. Paleopathologists can also
calculate growth
rates by measuring bones of people of different ages, examine teeth for
enamel defects
(signs of childhood malnutrition), and recognize scars left on bones by
anemia,
tuberculosis, leprosy, and other diseases.
One straightforward example of what paleopathologists have learned from
skeletons concerns historical changes in height. Skeletons from Greece
and Turkey show
that the average height of hunter-gatherers toward the end of the ice
ages was a
generous 5'9" for men, 5'5" for women. With the adoption of agriculture,
height
crashed, and by 3000 B.C. had reached a low of 5'3" for men ,5' for
women. By classical
times heights were very slowly on the rise again, but modern Greeks and
Turks have still
not regained the average height of their distant ancestors.
Another example of paleopathology at work is the study of Indian
skeletons from
burial mounds in the lllinois and Ohio river valleys. At Dickson Mounds,
located near the
confluence of the Spoon and lllinois rivers, archaeologists have
excavated some 800
skeletons that paint a picture of the health changes that occurred when
a hunter-gatherer
culture gave way to intensive maize farming around A.D. 1150. Studies by
George
Armelagos and his colleagues then at the University of Massachusetts
show these
early farmers paid a price for their new-found livelihood. Compared to
the huntergatherers
who preceded them, the farmers had a nearly fifty percent increase in
enamel
defects indicative of malnutrition, a fourfold increase in
iron-deficiency anemia
(evidenced by a bone condition called porotic hyperostosis), a threefold
rise in bone
lesions reflecting infectious disease in general, and an increase in
degenerative conditions
of the spine, probably reflecting a lot of hard physical labor. "Life
expectancy at birth in
the preagricultural community was about twenty-six years," says
Armelagos, "but in the
postagricultural community it was nineteen years. So these episodes of
nutritional stress
and infectious disease were seriously affecting their ability to
survive."
The evidence suggests that the Indians at Dickson Mounds, like many other
primitive peoples, took up farming not by choice but from necessity in
order to feed their
constantly growing numbers. " I don't think most hunter-gatherers farmed
until they
had to, and when they switched to farming they traded quality for
quantity." says Mark
Cohen of the State University of New York at Plattsburgh, co-editor,
with Armelagos, of
one of the seminal books in the field, Paleopathology at the Origins of
Agriculture.
"When I first started making that argument ten years ago, not many
people agreed with
me. Now it's become a respectable, albeit controversial, side of the
debate."
There are at least three sets of reasons to explain the findings that
agriculture was
bad for health. First, hunter-gatherers enjoyed a varied diet, while
early farmers obtained
most of their food from one or a few starchy crops. The farmers gained
cheap calories at
the cost of poor nutrition. (Today just three high-carbohydrate
plants--wheat, rice, and
corn--provide the bulk of the calories consumed by the human species,
yet each one is
deficient in certain vitamins or amino acids essential to life.) Second,
because of
dependence on a limited number of crops, farmers ran the risk of
starvation if one crop
failed. Finally, the mere fact that agriculture encouraged people to
clump together in
crowded societies, many of which then carried on trade with other
crowded societies, led
to the spread of parasites and infectious disease. (Some archaeologists
think it was
crowding, rather than agriculture, that promoted disease, but this is a
chicken-and-egg
argument, because crowding encourages agriculture and vice versa.)
Epidemics couldn't
take hold when populations were scattered in small bands that constantly
shifted camp.
Tuberculosis and diarrheal disease had to await the rise of farming,
measles and bubonic
plague the appearance of large cities.
Besides malnutrition, starvation, and epidemic diseases, farming helped
bring
another curse upon humanity: deep class divisions. Hunter-gatherers have
little or no
stored food, and no concentrated food sources, like an orchard or a herd
of cows: they
live off the wild plants and animals they obtain each day. Therefore,
there can be no
kings, no class of social parasites who grow fat on food seized from
others. Only in a
farming population could a healthy, nonproducing elite set itself above
the disease-ridden
masses. Skeletons from Greek tombs at Mycenae c.1500 B.C. suggest that
royals enjoyed
a better diet than commoners, since the royal skeletons were two or
three inches taller and
had better teeth (on average, one instead of six cavities or missing
teeth). Among Chilean
mummies from c. A.D. 1000, the elite were distinguished not only by
ornaments and gold
hair clips but also by a fourfold lower rate of bone lesions caused by
disease.
Similar contrasts in nutrition and health persist on a global scale
today. To people
in rich countries like the U.S., it sounds ridiculous to extol the
virtues of hunting and
gathering. But Americans are an elite, dependent on oil and minerals
that must often be
imported from countries with poorer health and nutrition. If one could
choose between
being a peasant farmer in Ethiopia or a Bushman gatherer in the
Kalahari, which do you
think would be the better choice?
Farming may have encouraged inequality between the sexes, as well. Freed
from
the need to transport their babies during a nomadic existence, and under
pressure to
produce more hands to till the fields, farming women tended to have more
frequent
pregnancies than their hunter-gatherer counterparts-- with consequent
drains on their
health. Among the Chilean mummies, for example, more women than men had
bone
lesions from infectious disease.
Women in agricultural societies were sometimes made beasts of burden. In
New
guinea farming communities today, I often see women staggering under
loads of
vegetables and firewood while the men walk empty-handed. Once while on a
field
trip there studying birds, I offered to pay some villagers to carry
supplies from an
airstrip to my mountain camp. The heaviest item was a 11 O-pound bag of
rice, which I
lashed to a pole and assigned a team of four men to shoulder together.
When I eventually
caught up with the villagers, the men were carrying light loads, while
one small woman
weighing less than the bag of rice was bent under it, supporting its
weight by a cord
across her temples.
As for the claim that agriculture encouraged the flowering of art by
providing us
with leisure time, modem hunter-gathers have at least as much free time
as do farmers.
The whole emphasis on leisure time as a critical factor seems to me
misguided. Gorillas
have had ample free time to build their own Parthenon, had they wanted
to. While postagricultural
technological advances did make new art forms possible and preservation
of
art easier, great paintings and sculptures were already being produced
by hunter-gatherers
15,000 years ago, and were still being produced as recently as the last
century by such
hunter-gatherers as some Inuit and the Indians of the Pacific Northwest.
Thus with the advent of agriculture an elite became better off but most
people
became worse off. Instead of swallowing the progressivist party line
that we chose
agriculture because it was good for us, we must ask how we got trapped
by it despite its
pitfalls.
One answer boils down to the adage "Might makes right." Farming could
support
many more people than hunting, albeit with a poorer quality of life.
(Population densities
of hunter gatherers are rarely over one person per ten square miles,
while farmers average
100 time that.) Partly, this is because a field planted entirely in
edible crops lets one feed
far more mouths than a forest with scattered edible plants. Partly, too,
it's because
nomadic hunter-gatherers have to keep their children spaced at four-year
intervals by
extended nursing and other means, since a mother must carry her toddler
until it's old
enough to keep up with the adults. Because farm women don't have that
burden, they can
and often do bear a child every two years.
As population densities of hunter-gatherers slowly rose at the end of
the ice ages,
bands had to choose between feeding more mouths by taking the first
steps toward
agriculture, or else finding ways to limit growth. Some bands chose the
former solution,
unable to anticipate the evils of farming, and seduced by the transient
abundance they
enjoyed until population growth caught up with increased food
production. Such bands
outbred and then drove off or killed the bands that chose to remain
hunter-gatherers,
because a hundred malnourished farmers can still outfight one healthy
hunter. It's not that
hunter-gatherers abandoned their life style, but that those sensible
enough not to abandon
it were forced out of all areas except the ones farmer didn't want.
At this point it's instructive to recall the common complaint that
archaeology is a
luxury, concerned with the remote past, and offering no lessons for the
present.
Archaeologists studying the rise of farming have reconstructed a crucial
stage at which
we made the worst mistake in human history. Forced to choose between
limiting
population or trying to increase food production, we chose the latter
and ended up with
starvation, warfare, and tyranny.
Hunter-gatherers practiced the most successful and longest lasting
lifestyle in
human history. In contrast, we're still struggling with the mess into
which agriculture has
tumbled us, and it's unclear whether we can solve it. Suppose that an
archaeologist who
had visited us from outer space where trying to explain human history to
his fellow
spacelings. He might illustrate the results of his digs by a twenty-four
hour clock on
which one hour represents 100,000 years of real past time. It the
history of the human
race began at midnight, then we would now be almost at the end of our
first day. We
lived as hunter-gatherers for nearly the whole of that day,from midnight
through dawn,
noon, and sunset. Finally, at 11:54 p.m., we adopted agriculture. As our
second midnight
approaches, will the plight of famine-stricken peasants gradually spread
to engulf us all? Or will
we somehow achieve those seductive blessings that we imagine behind
agriculture's glittering
facade and that have so far eluded us?
--------

I'm talking about refined carbohydrates (white flour, white rice, and
sugar). What are you talking about?
--
Wildbilly
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...826384398.html
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm

Wildbilly wrote:

I'm talking about refined carbohydrates (white flour, white rice, and
sugar). What are you talking about?

White rice is a few thousand years old. White flour is a result of
industrial milling invented under 300 years ago. Large amounts of
refined sugar have been available for under 500 years and has exploded
in the last century.

The article you quoted was about the 10,000 year old transition to
agriculture and how that led to poor health. Thus the article is about
the ill effects of eating whole grain.

Looks to me like what I'm talking about is what the article states -
Refined carbs are only the most recent and most extreme feature but the
long term trend of ill health caused by whole grain is illustrated in
the article.

Interesting point - Agriculture has been pushing human evolution for
millenia. That's a short time on evolutionary time scales but the
pressure has been immense. Check the selective breeding implications in
the number of people who have died from the evolutionary pressures of an
agriculture based culture. While humanity evolved during the stone ages
less than the 5 million years it takes to evolve an ideal diet, the
evolutionary pressure has been extreme since then. The arguments for
adopting a paleolithic diet aren't as strong as some would like. But
ten millenia is an evolutionarily short time span any ways. The
arguments for a grain based diet are weaker still except for economic
reasons.

In article ,
Doug Freyburger wrote:

Wildbilly wrote:

I'm talking about refined carbohydrates (white flour, white rice, and
sugar). What are you talking about?

White rice is a few thousand years old. White flour is a result of
industrial milling invented under 300 years ago. Large amounts of
refined sugar have been available for under 500 years and has exploded
in the last century.

The article you quoted was about the 10,000 year old transition to
agriculture and how that led to poor health. Thus the article is about
the ill effects of eating whole grain.

Looks to me like what I'm talking about is what the article states -
Refined carbs are only the most recent and most extreme feature but the
long term trend of ill health caused by whole grain is illustrated in
the article.

Interesting point - Agriculture has been pushing human evolution for
millenia. That's a short time on evolutionary time scales but the
pressure has been immense. Check the selective breeding implications in
the number of people who have died from the evolutionary pressures of an
agriculture based culture. While humanity evolved during the stone ages
less than the 5 million years it takes to evolve an ideal diet, the
evolutionary pressure has been extreme since then. The arguments for
adopting a paleolithic diet aren't as strong as some would like. But
ten millenia is an evolutionarily short time span any ways. The
arguments for a grain based diet are weaker still except for economic
reasons.

OK, so you finally read the Jerod Diamond article.

Try reading the article again. The problem, IIRC, was the lack of
variety in the crops (nutrition) in the farmers diets, occupying the
same area over a period of time, population density, which in turn gave
rise to communicable diseases (There are reasons why we refer to bird
flu and swine flu.), and the rise of government with its' establishment
of the hierarchy of social classes (the hunters and gatherers being
egalitarian).

IIRC, in the early 20's a study was done on cadavers of people who died
from accidents, that came to a N.Y. morgue. Most of them showed signs of
arteriosclerosis, but that isn't what they died from. I'll look up the
citation over the Thanksgiving break.

Sugar cane workers consume the most sugar of any demographic, and show
little sign of CVD, but they work like burros.

My points were that the elite of Egypt were the most likely to have a
sweet diet, and as the article stated, there is no way to know if they
died because of heart disease.

Gotta go get some sleep now, but I'll be back.
--
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist."
-Archbishop Helder Camara

http://tinyurl.com/o63ruj
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm

Susan wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:

The article you quoted was about the 10,000 year old transition to
agriculture and how that led to poor health. Thus the article is about
the ill effects of eating whole grain.

You realize that once a grain is milled into flour or cereal, it ceases
to be a whole grain?

I don't realize that because it was not true until recent centuries.

For millenia grain was tossed into the air to rid it of the husk and
what remained was fertile particles that have bran, endosperm and germ.
That is to say whole grain. These whole grain particles were stone
ground by hand then allowed to rise and baked into bread within two
days. Then for centuries the whole grains were ground using water
powered stone mills rather than hand ground. Hand ground or water power
ground the result was still whole grain flour not refined flour so it
did not cease to be whole grain. The problem with this fresh ground
whole grain flour is retaining the germ means the flour spoils in a few
days so milling needs to be local.

A couple of centuries ago a different kind of milling process was
invented. This modern refining method separates the bran (which was
mostly fed to pigs until the oat bran crazy a few years ago), the
endosperm (which becomes the refined white flour that is so problematic)
and the germ (which is available dried in may stores). The ground
endosperm starch is lower in nutrients but it also lasts *much* longer.
Refined grain is now milled in very large mills and shipped long
distances. Before the refining process was invented the whole grin
flour would spoil in a few days.

The ill health effects resulted when argiculture was invented millenia
before refined milling was invented. The ill effects accelerated
greatly when the refined milling process was invented.

Looks to me like what I'm talking about is what the article states -
Refined carbs are only the most recent and most extreme feature but the
long term trend of ill health caused by whole grain is illustrated in
the article.

This is why scientific historians refer to the "diseases of
civilization" diabetes and CVD. Grains developed civilization, but at a
cost to health.

The article points out why agriculture eventually dominated the globe
replacing hunter-gatherer societies almost completely. In spite of the
ill health effects and the hard labor involved, argiculture allows more
people to live. With large enough populations quantity *does* beat
quality. Even with the lower mean and medians of agricultural societies
compared to hunter-gather societies the variance and total populations
ensure that there are more high production people in an agricultural
society than in a hunter gatherer society. And so no hunter-gather
society has ever developed metal smelting and thus no hunter-gatherer
society has ever moved towards industrialization.

It's true that it was done on the backs of millenia of heavy labor
misery, but civilization has advanced to the point where many can now
eat better than people do in hunter-gather societies. Over time the
percentage of the total world population in poverty shrinks. The dream
that the total number will shrink becomes realistic as the percentage
continues to decline. The dream that few will be poor remains a dream
but the direction is clear. The question becomes whether human society
can pull that off. Build hot houses and grow veggies. Plant trees to
maintain forests.

Doug Freyburger wrote:
Susan wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:

The article you quoted was about the 10,000 year old transition to
agriculture and how that led to poor health. Thus the article is about
the ill effects of eating whole grain.
You realize that once a grain is milled into flour or cereal, it ceases
to be a whole grain?

I don't realize that because it was not true until recent centuries.

For millenia grain was tossed into the air to rid it of the husk and
what remained was fertile particles that have bran, endosperm and germ.
That is to say whole grain. These whole grain particles were stone
ground by hand then allowed to rise and baked into bread within two
days. Then for centuries the whole grains were ground using water
powered stone mills rather than hand ground. Hand ground or water power
ground the result was still whole grain flour not refined flour so it
did not cease to be whole grain. The problem with this fresh ground
whole grain flour is retaining the germ means the flour spoils in a few
days so milling needs to be local.

Once it's ground, no matter what's included or the method, it's flour,
or cereal, but not whole grain, which is a kernel type thing.

Susan

In article ,
Doug Freyburger wrote:

I don't realize that because it was not true until recent centuries.

For millenia grain was tossed into the air to rid it of the husk and
what remained was fertile particles that have bran, endosperm and germ.
That is to say whole grain. These whole grain particles were stone
ground by hand then allowed to rise and baked into bread within two
days. Then for centuries the whole grains were ground using water
powered stone mills rather than hand ground. Hand ground or water power
ground the result was still whole grain flour not refined flour so it
did not cease to be whole grain. The problem with this fresh ground
whole grain flour is retaining the germ means the flour spoils in a few
days so milling needs to be local.

A couple of centuries ago a different kind of milling process was
invented. This modern refining method separates the bran (which was
mostly fed to pigs until the oat bran crazy a few years ago), the
endosperm (which becomes the refined white flour that is so problematic)
and the germ (which is available dried in may stores). The ground
endosperm starch is lower in nutrients but it also lasts *much* longer.
Refined grain is now milled in very large mills and shipped long
distances. Before the refining process was invented the whole grin
flour would spoil in a few days.

The ill health effects resulted when argiculture was invented millenia
before refined milling was invented. The ill effects accelerated
greatly when the refined milling process was invented.

And when you grind even the best whole grain into flour, you raise the
glycemic index. IF you must eat wheat eat it as a cereal.

--
A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

In article ,
Doug Freyburger wrote:

It's true that it was done on the backs of millenia of heavy labor
misery, but civilization has advanced to the point where many can now
eat better than people do in hunter-gather societies.

Can but for the most part do not. :[

I was talking with a friend the other day about organic grass finished
beef and he asked, "Isn't it expensive?"

Actually, the cost is in the range for cheese or virgin organic coconut
oil.

--
A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard.

Walter Bushell wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:

It's true that it was done on the backs of millenia of heavy labor
misery, but civilization has advanced to the point where many can now
eat better than people do in hunter-gather societies.

Year by year the percentage of humanity so deep in poverty they are
exposed to regular starvation drops. Year by year the total human
population increases fast enough that the total number of people at or
near starvation increases. As the percentage drops there's a point
where even with the total population increasing the number starving
drops. I am hopeful that will happen in the next decade during the
regular economic up cycle that happens every decade. If not this one
then the next one. It's not an end to world hunger but it is a step
along the path to it.

Can but for the most part do not. :[

Agreed and I'll reenforce it by adding a different sad face. :^(

Even among the cultures rich enough that almost none starve folks have
no idea what to eat. This is as puzzling to me as folks who can't
glance at food and estimate what ingredients it was made from.

I was talking with a friend the other day about organic grass finished
beef and he asked, "Isn't it expensive?"

How much extra are folks willing to pay for organic? For me it's some
extra but not a lot. Maybe 10-15% more.

Actually, the cost is in the range for cheese or virgin organic coconut
oil.

Regular coconut oil at Super Walmart is a couple of dollars. Fancy
extra virgin organic coconut oil at the fancy grocery is well over ten
dollars for the same amount. When used as a cooking oil I can't tell
the two apart. Am I missing something by buying the cheaper type that
appears to be targetted to the Hispanic market?

In article ,
Doug Freyburger wrote:

Susan wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:

The article you quoted was about the 10,000 year old transition to
agriculture and how that led to poor health. Thus the article is about
the ill effects of eating whole grain.

You realize that once a grain is milled into flour or cereal, it ceases
to be a whole grain?

I don't realize that because it was not true until recent centuries.

For millenia grain was tossed into the air to rid it of the husk and
what remained was fertile particles that have bran, endosperm and germ.
That is to say whole grain. These whole grain particles were stone
ground by hand then allowed to rise and baked into bread within two
days. Then for centuries the whole grains were ground using water
powered stone mills rather than hand ground. Hand ground or water power
ground the result was still whole grain flour not refined flour so it
did not cease to be whole grain. The problem with this fresh ground
whole grain flour is retaining the germ means the flour spoils in a few
days so milling needs to be local.

A couple of centuries ago a different kind of milling process was
invented. This modern refining method separates the bran (which was
mostly fed to pigs until the oat bran crazy a few years ago), the
endosperm (which becomes the refined white flour that is so problematic)
and the germ (which is available dried in may stores). The ground
endosperm starch is lower in nutrients but it also lasts *much* longer.
Refined grain is now milled in very large mills and shipped long
distances. Before the refining process was invented the whole grin
flour would spoil in a few days.

Shelf Life of whole wheat flour: 6 months to one year in the freezer if
stored in tightly sealed plastic containers or if tightly wrapped. It
will keep for only a few months if stored in a cabinet.
http://www.recipetips.com/kitchen-ti...rage-guide.asp


The ill health effects resulted when argiculture was invented millenia
before refined milling was invented. The ill effects accelerated
greatly when the refined milling process was invented.

Looks to me like what I'm talking about is what the article states -
Refined carbs are only the most recent and most extreme feature but the
long term trend of ill health caused by whole grain is illustrated in
the article.

This is why scientific historians refer to the "diseases of
civilization" diabetes and CVD. Grains developed civilization, but at a
cost to health.

The article points out why agriculture eventually dominated the globe
replacing hunter-gatherer societies almost completely. In spite of the
ill health effects and the hard labor involved, argiculture allows more
people to live. With large enough populations quantity *does* beat
quality. Even with the lower mean and medians of agricultural societies
compared to hunter-gather societies the variance and total populations
ensure that there are more high production people in an agricultural
society than in a hunter gatherer society. And so no hunter-gather
society has ever developed metal smelting and thus no hunter-gatherer
society has ever moved towards industrialization.

It's true that it was done on the backs of millenia of heavy labor
misery, but civilization has advanced to the point where many can now
eat better than people do in hunter-gather societies. Over time the
percentage of the total world population in poverty shrinks. The dream
that the total number will shrink becomes realistic as the percentage
continues to decline. The dream that few will be poor remains a dream
but the direction is clear. The question becomes whether human society
can pull that off. Build hot houses and grow veggies. Plant trees to
maintain forests.

First, poverty.
Most of the people who have escaped extreme poverty
remain very poor by the standards of middle-income economies.
The median poverty line for developing countries in
2005 was $2.00 a day. The poverty rate for all developing
countries measured at this line fell from nearly 70 percent in
1981 to 47 percent in 2005, but the number of people living
on less than $2.00 a day has remained nearly constant at 2.5
billion. The largest decrease, both in number and proportion,
occurred in East Asia and Pacific, led by China. Elsewhere, the
number of people living on less than $2.00 a day increased,
and the number of people living between $1.25 and $2.00 a
day nearly doubled, to 1.18 billion.

Most countries these days are oligarchies, the government are just
charades and facades, be it Red China or the USA.

"Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their
wealth."
-Lucy Parsons

Part of their wealth is stock in Lockheed-Martin, Boeing Co., Raytheon
Corp., and other manufactures of American weapon systems that consume
one half of the world's military budget. Stay tuned. There should be a
war coming to a continent near you soon. (Venezuela would be my guess :O(

Meanwhile, back on the nutrition front, one of the interesting things
about white flour is that it attracts fewer insects and rats than whole
grain flour. (Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Tauber p.96)

Secondly, "Anything that raises blood sugar - in particular, the
consumption of refined and easily digestible carbohydrates - will
increase the generation of oxidants and free radicals; it will increase
the rate of oxidative stress and glycation,and the formation and
accumulation of advanced glycation end products. his means thatanything
that raises blood sugar, by the logic of the carbohydrate hypothesis,
will lead to more atherosclerosis and heart disease, more vascular
disorders, and a pace of accelerated degeneration, even in those of us
who never become diabetic." (Ibid, p.194)

I agree with you about the consumption of fruit and vegetables, but
these are usually low in calories. The evils (lack of nourishment) of
the consumption of grains can be somewhat mitigated by eating whole
grains and whole grain flours, but (and this was a surprise to me) their
glycemic indexes are very similar. As a result, basing the diets on
grain (carbs), is akin to slow poisoning. Basing the diets on meat
requires more farmland (and I hopefully a major change in the model of
production).

It is estimated that cropland will need to be increased by the size of
Brazil, if we are to feed the 3 billion people who will be joining us by
2050.

We got ourselves a conundrum here. Anybody for mandatory birth control?
--
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist."
-Archbishop Helder Camara

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