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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 25th, 2012, 05:33 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
James Warren
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Posts: 150
Default The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

Here is a video that might be of some interest to members
of this group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZ...eature=related

The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than
any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk.

More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment
and the ADA.
  #2  
Old May 25th, 2012, 05:51 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Walter Bushell
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Posts: 142
Default The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

In article ,
James Warren wrote:

The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

Here is a video that might be of some interest to members
of this group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZ...eature=related

The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than
any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk.

More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment
and the ADA.


Not likely. Aside from fiscal considerations the sheer shock of
knowing that you have disabled or even killed people with you dietary
and medical advice precludes most of the people involved from seeing
the truth. This goes triple for the bariatric surgery enthusiasts, who
abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps
bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet.

See Ignaz Semmelweis.

--
This space unintentionally left blank.
  #3  
Old May 25th, 2012, 05:57 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
James Warren
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Posts: 150
Default The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

On 5/25/2012 1:51 PM, Walter Bushell wrote:
In articleKpidnVXwmsfEKSLSnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@giganews. com,
James wrote:

The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

Here is a video that might be of some interest to members
of this group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZ...eature=related

The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than
any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk.

More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment
and the ADA.


Not likely.


Don't give up so easily. It is worth a try.

Aside from fiscal considerations the sheer shock of
knowing that you have disabled or even killed people with you dietary
and medical advice precludes most of the people involved from seeing
the truth. This goes triple for the bariatric surgery enthusiasts, who


At the end of the video he says that the ADA has begrudgingly sanctioned
LC diets if people can't comply with LF diets saying compliance trumps diet.

abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps
bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet.

See Ignaz Semmelweis.


The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic
changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1.

  #4  
Old May 25th, 2012, 07:56 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Doug Freyburger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,866
Default The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

James Warren wrote:
Walter Bushell wrote:
James wrote:


The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

...
The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than
any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk.


No surprise to any of us here.

More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment
and the ADA.


Not likely.


Don't give up so easily. It is worth a try.


The way to sway the medical establishment is to teach low carb in
medical school. That has started to happen.

Aside from fiscal considerations the sheer shock of
knowing that you have disabled or even killed people with you dietary
and medical advice precludes most of the people involved from seeing
the truth. This goes triple for the bariatric surgery enthusiasts, who


Think of the fear of medical malpractice. The evidence has been
overwhelming for decades.

At the end of the video he says that the ADA has begrudgingly sanctioned
LC diets if people can't comply with LF diets saying compliance trumps diet.


Compliance is vastly important. Any plan that drives people off it is a
failed plan. A percentage of the population does fine on low fat but
low fat drives very many off. When I tried low fat I was hungry
constantly until I relented.

But there is more to it than compliance. There is the long term
results. Poor compliance to low fat is one of the starting points that
pointed Dr Atkins to low carb. He saw many of his heart patients fail
to comply even though it would cost them their lives to fail. Then he
started noticing that the few who did/could comply got worse results
after 6+ month on low fat.

abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps
bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet.


The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic
changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1.


Which is a cause and which is the effect? It is certain that bariatric
surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory. What if those same
people had tried total adherence to low carb before surgery?

I know we can't know that. It's like saying everyone in a concentration
camp loses weight. It's true but it's not relevant to dieting.

There should be suspicions though. The diet shortly after bariatric
surgery, doesn't it remind you of the test cases in the original fat
fast experiment?
  #5  
Old May 25th, 2012, 08:03 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
James Warren
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 150
Default The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

On 5/25/2012 3:56 PM, Doug Freyburger wrote:
James Warren wrote:
Walter Bushell wrote:
James wrote:


The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

...
The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than
any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk.


No surprise to any of us here.

More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment
and the ADA.


Not likely.


Don't give up so easily. It is worth a try.


The way to sway the medical establishment is to teach low carb in
medical school. That has started to happen.

Aside from fiscal considerations the sheer shock of
knowing that you have disabled or even killed people with you dietary
and medical advice precludes most of the people involved from seeing
the truth. This goes triple for the bariatric surgery enthusiasts, who


Think of the fear of medical malpractice. The evidence has been
overwhelming for decades.

At the end of the video he says that the ADA has begrudgingly sanctioned
LC diets if people can't comply with LF diets saying compliance trumps diet.


Compliance is vastly important. Any plan that drives people off it is a
failed plan. A percentage of the population does fine on low fat but
low fat drives very many off. When I tried low fat I was hungry
constantly until I relented.

But there is more to it than compliance. There is the long term
results. Poor compliance to low fat is one of the starting points that
pointed Dr Atkins to low carb. He saw many of his heart patients fail
to comply even though it would cost them their lives to fail. Then he
started noticing that the few who did/could comply got worse results
after 6+ month on low fat.

abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps
bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet.


The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic
changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1.


Which is a cause and which is the effect? It is certain that bariatric
surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory.


Why? I hadn't heard that at all.

The change in hormones is immediate presumably because most of the
stomach is bypassed and is not stimulated by eating.

What if those same
people had tried total adherence to low carb before surgery?

I know we can't know that. It's like saying everyone in a concentration
camp loses weight. It's true but it's not relevant to dieting.

There should be suspicions though. The diet shortly after bariatric
surgery, doesn't it remind you of the test cases in the original fat
fast experiment?


Again, what diet change is mandated by the surgery? Surgery is much
more drastic an intervention than diet change.
  #6  
Old May 25th, 2012, 10:15 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Doug Freyburger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,866
Default The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

James Warren wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
James Warren wrote:
Walter Bushell wrote:
James wrote:


abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps
bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet.

The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic
changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1.


Which is a cause and which is the effect? It is certain that bariatric
surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory.


Why? I hadn't heard that at all.

The change in hormones is immediate presumably because most of the
stomach is bypassed and is not stimulated by eating.


The not eating part is caused by the band. It can as easily be caused
by doing the fat fast. That should trigger the same metabolic changes.

What if those same
people had tried total adherence to low carb before surgery?

I know we can't know that. It's like saying everyone in a concentration
camp loses weight. It's true but it's not relevant to dieting.

There should be suspicions though. The diet shortly after bariatric
surgery, doesn't it remind you of the test cases in the original fat
fast experiment?


Again, what diet change is mandated by the surgery? Surgery is much
more drastic an intervention than diet change.


Before surgery there is no pain when eating. After surgery if you eat
more than a certain amount there is severe pain and vomitting. Much
worse pain than the hunger.

People on the fat fast report little hunger. Same as folks who have had
surgery. One is voluntary the other forced.
  #7  
Old May 27th, 2012, 03:59 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 993
Default The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

On May 25, 3:03*pm, James Warren wrote:
On 5/25/2012 3:56 PM, Doug Freyburger wrote:





James Warren wrote:
Walter Bushell wrote:
* *James * wrote:


The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
...
The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than
any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk.


No surprise to any of us here.


More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment
and the ADA.


Not likely.


Don't give up so easily. It is worth a try.


The way to sway the medical establishment is to teach low carb in
medical school. *That has started to happen.


Aside from fiscal considerations the sheer shock of
knowing that you have disabled or even killed people with you dietary
and medical advice precludes most of the people involved from seeing
the truth. This goes triple for the bariatric surgery enthusiasts, who


Think of the fear of medical malpractice. *The evidence has been
overwhelming for decades.


At the end of the video he says that the ADA has begrudgingly sanctioned
LC diets if people can't comply with LF diets saying compliance trumps diet.


Compliance is vastly important. *Any plan that drives people off it is a
failed plan. *A percentage of the population does fine on low fat but
low fat drives very many off. *When I tried low fat I was hungry
constantly until I relented.


But there is more to it than compliance. *There is the long term
results. Poor compliance to low fat is one of the starting points that
pointed Dr Atkins to low carb. He saw many of his heart patients fail
to comply even though it would cost them their lives to fail. Then he
started noticing that the few who did/could comply got worse results
after 6+ month on low fat.


abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps
bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet.


The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic
changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1.


Which is a cause and which is the effect? *It is certain that bariatric
surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory.


Why? I hadn't heard that at all.

The change in hormones is immediate presumably because most of the
stomach is bypassed and is not stimulated by eating.


I agree. It's apparent that a lot more is going on
here than bariatric surgery forcing a LC diet. There
have been studies that show that within a day or two
of the surgery being performed people who were
diabetic revert to normal and no longer need
medication. Research is going on right
now to determine exactly why as it could lead to a
major breakthrough in how to treat diabetes.
As you suggest, one prime candidate is the effect
it has on hormones.



What if those same
people had tried total adherence to low carb before surgery?


I know we can't know that. *It's like saying everyone in a concentration
camp loses weight. *It's true but it's not relevant to dieting.


There should be suspicions though. *The diet shortly after bariatric
surgery, doesn't it remind you of the test cases in the original fat
fast experiment?


Again, what diet change is mandated by the surgery?


There are definitely guidelines for what is suggested
for people to eat long term following the surgery. But
I'm not aware of anything that forces people to eat LC.
And even if there are recommendations, we all know
how well those work. Most people are going to revert
to eating what they like as long as it doesn't make them
feel ill. And again, I see nothing that says those with
surgery will be forced to eat LC due to the surgery.
In fact, some of what I've seen argues exactly the
opposite, ie that some vegs high in fiber, too much
fat, may cause problems for them.






  #8  
Old May 27th, 2012, 04:06 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 993
Default The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

On May 25, 5:15*pm, Doug Freyburger wrote:
James Warren wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
James Warren wrote:
Walter Bushell wrote:
* *James * wrote:


abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps
bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet.


The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic
changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1.


Which is a cause and which is the effect? *It is certain that bariatric
surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory.


Why? I hadn't heard that at all.


The change in hormones is immediate presumably because most of the
stomach is bypassed and is not stimulated by eating.


The not eating part is caused by the band. *It can as easily be caused
by doing the fat fast. *That should trigger the same metabolic changes.


So you say, without any evidence whatever to support it.
Have you not seen the reports and research going on to
understand the mystifying changes scene in most of
these patients within days of the surgery. Like the
complete reversal of diabetes?




What if those same
people had tried total adherence to low carb before surgery?


I know we can't know that. *It's like saying everyone in a concentration
camp loses weight. *It's true but it's not relevant to dieting.


There should be suspicions though. *The diet shortly after bariatric
surgery, doesn't it remind you of the test cases in the original fat
fast experiment?


Again, what diet change is mandated by the surgery? Surgery is much
more drastic an intervention than diet change.


Before surgery there is no pain when eating. *After surgery if you eat
more than a certain amount there is severe pain and vomitting. *Much
worse pain than the hunger.

People on the fat fast report little hunger. *Same as folks who have had
surgery. *One is voluntary the other forced.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


It's ridiculous to compare an Atkins fat fast to
the diet of bariatric patients. They are told to basicly
ease back to a normal, healthy diet provided it
doesn't cause them any issues. I see nothing that
says that diet is anything at all like a fat fast. And
we know most people are going to revert to eating
whatever they feel like and can tolerate. Fat fast?
I think not.
  #9  
Old May 27th, 2012, 05:00 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 993
Default The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

On May 25, 12:33*pm, James Warren wrote:
The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

Here is a video that might be of some interest to members
of this group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZ...eature=related

The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than
any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk.

More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment
and the ADA.


Great find. Best thing I've seen here in a while.
Some of my thoughts.... First, it's important to recognize
that the goal here was not to even try to have strict
adherence to any of the diets. It was oriented to see
what happens with those given a book, class room instruction, 8 weeks
of follow-up, etc, then left alone
to follow the diets for a year. More like what happens
in the real world and a perfectly valid approach.


Even at 8 weeks, while
still being guided, the Atkins group was clearly not doing
Atkins. Carbs accounted for 17% of their caloric intake
at 8 weeks. If we assume a diet of 2000 calories, that
would be 340 cals from carb, or 85g. If they were
doing Atkins by the book, they should be at no more
than 50g of carbs at 8 weeks. So, I'd say from the start
they were doing lower carb, but not specifically
adhering to Atkins.

And at 1 year, their carb intake was double that, so
they were taking in about 170g of carb. Obviously
lower carb than a typical diet, but again, not Atkins.
That's the other thing we already knew, which is that
regardless of diet, most people wind up going back
to their old ways. You can see it in the charts where
weight loss peaked right about at 8 weeks, then
started a slow climb back up for the rest of the year.
That was true for all the diets, though LC was better.
But I have to believe if it were continued for another
year or two the reversion rate would just continue to
increase toward 100%.

That is the really discouraging part. Despite the
health benefits that can be seen, most people just can't
change their ways. It's clear to me that the obesity
epidemic isn't going to be solved until we have some
miracle drug.

  #10  
Old May 27th, 2012, 08:51 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

On Sun, 27 May 2012 08:06:19 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[...]
Which is a cause and which is the effect? *It is certain that bariatric
surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory.


Why? I hadn't heard that at all.


The change in hormones is immediate presumably because most of the
stomach is bypassed and is not stimulated by eating.


The not eating part is caused by the band. *It can as easily be caused
by doing the fat fast. *That should trigger the same metabolic changes.


So you say, without any evidence whatever to support it.
Have you not seen the reports and research going on to
understand the mystifying changes scene in most of
these patients within days of the surgery. Like the
complete reversal of diabetes?


Or the adverse effects:

Adverse effects

Complications from weight loss surgery are frequent. A study of
insurance claims of 2522 who had undergone bariatric surgery showed
21.9% complications during the initial hospital stay and a total of
40% risk of complications in the subsequent six months. This was more
common in those over 40 and led to an increased health care
expenditure. Common problems were gastric dumping syndrome in about
20% (bloating and diarrhea after eating, necessitating small meals or
medication), leaks at the surgical site (12%), incisional hernia (7%),
infections (6%) and pneumonia (4%). Mortality was 0.2%.[31] As the
rate of complications appears to be reduced when the procedure is
performed by an experienced surgeon, guidelines recommend that surgery
be performed in dedicated or experienced units.[4]

Metabolic bone disease manifesting as osteopenia and secondary
hyperparathyroidism have been reported after Roux-en-Y gastric bypass
surgery due to reduced calcium absorption. The highest concentration
of calcium transporters is in the duodenum. Since the ingested food
will not pass through the duodenum after a bypass procedure, calcium
levels in the blood may decrease, causing secondary
hyperparathyroidism, increase in bone turnover, and a decrease in bone
mass. Increased risk of fracture has also been linked to bariatric
surgery.[32]

Rapid weight loss after obesity surgery can contribute to the
development of gallstones as well by increasing the lithogenicity of
bile. Adverse effects on the kidneys have been studied. Hyperoxaluria
that can potentially lead to oxalate nephropathy and irreversible
renal failure is the most significant abnormality seen on urine
chemistry studies.Rhabdomyolysis leading to acute kidney injury, and
impaired renal handling of acid and base has been reported after
bypass surgery.[citation needed]

Nutritional derangements due to deficiencies of micronutrients like
iron, vitamin B12, fat soluble vitamins, thiamine, and folate are
especially common after malabsorptive bariatric procedures. Seizures
due to hyperinsulinemic hypoglycemia have been reported. Inappropriate
insulin secretion secondary to islet cell hyperplasia, called
pancreatic nesidioblastosis, might explain this syndrome.[33

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bariatric_surgery

I think just about anything is worth a try, before considering
bariatric surgery. Even the fat fast (under a doctor's supervision).

[...]
Before surgery there is no pain when eating. *After surgery if you eat
more than a certain amount there is severe pain and vomitting. *Much
worse pain than the hunger.

People on the fat fast report little hunger. *Same as folks who have had
surgery. *One is voluntary the other forced.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


It's ridiculous to compare an Atkins fat fast to
the diet of bariatric patients. They are told to basicly
ease back to a normal, healthy diet provided it
doesn't cause them any issues.


It basically requires a high protein diet.

"The post-bariatric surgery diet is often conducted in phases to give
you body time to heal and adjust to a new, smaller stomach. In the
initial days after your surgery, you will have liquids only, including
broth, juice, strained soup and protein drinks. This phase of your
diet is very low, if not no-carbohydrate. As your stomach beings to
heal, you can incorporate carbohydrate sources such as soft, blended
fruits and vegetables. These will be secondary, however, to protein
sources like egg whites and lean ground meats."

http://www.livestrong.com/article/47...low-carb-diet/

I see nothing that
says that diet is anything at all like a fat fast.


That's not what Doug is saying. He's saying a fat fast can (for some
people, at least) trigger the same metabolic changes that baraitric
surgery (apparently) triggers. And it can. Even very low-carb diets
can do that. So can other diets:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mar...b_1382236.html

In short, and in my opinion, bariatric surgery should be only be
considered after every other approach has failed.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
 




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