Atkins - Comparing good fats and better fats

http://www.lowcarb.org/josh_yelon/topic3.html

There are 3 listed studies. The second explains why the
fats Dr Atkins called "better" and "best" fats actually
lead to faster loss than the fats he called "good" fats.

Animal and human studies show that polyunsaturated fatty
acids (P) are oxidized more rapidly than saturated fatty
acids (S).

Dr Atkins called polyunsaturated fats the "best fats".
He called them that partially because they are essential
where neither saturated nor monounsaturated fats are
essential. Here's the other reason. Calorie for calorie,
if you eat the best fats, you'll burn more fuel than if you
eat the good fats. Burn more fuel, lose more weight.

The study showed that a prolonged food intake of a diet
with a high P/S ratio results in a relatively high RMR and
DIT. These results indicate the importance of dietary lipid
profile in the treatment of obesity.

On Atkins folks are typically told that if they cook a few
strips of bacon to have with their eggs in the morning that
they should use the bacon grease and not waste a drop. It
turns out that if you pour off the bacon grease *and* replace
it with the same amount of polyunsaturated oil (nut oil),
you'll lose even better.


Here is the full text of the abstract.

The effect of fat composition of the diet on energy metabolism.
van Marken Lichtenbelt WD, Mensink RP, Westerterp KR. Department of
Human Biology University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands.
Medline record in process.
Ernahrungswiss 1997 Dec;36(4):303-305

Animal and human studies show that polyunsaturated fatty acids (P)
are oxidized more rapidly than saturated fatty acids (S). There
are indications that diets high in P/S ratio result in a relatively
high resting metabolic rate (RMR) and high diet induced
thermogenesis (DIT). However, studies with human subjects are
limited. The effect of dietary fatty acid composition on energy
metabolism was studied in 6 male subjects, age 25-48 y. Two diets
were supplied, each over a period of 14 days, in a randomized
crossover design with a washout period of 14 days. P/S ratios of
the diets were 0.19 and 1.67. On day 14, RMR was determined in
the morning in fasting state by means of indirect calorimetry
(ventilated hood), followed by a 4 hour measurement of the DIT
after consumption of a standardized meal of 3.3 MJ with the same
fatty acid composition as during the dietary period. The meal
contained 46, 37, and 17 % energy as fat, carbohydrate, and
protein, respectively. RMR after the period with the high P/S diet
was significantly higher than after the period of the low P/S diet.
The average difference (+/- SD) was 0.17 +/- 0.14 kJ/min or
3.6 +/- 2.7 % of RMR. The DIT was also higher in all subjects
during a breakfast with a high P/S ratio. The average difference
was 0.29 +/- 0.16 kJ/min, which is 22.1 +/- 12.6 % of DIT. The
study showed that a prolonged food intake of a diet with a high
P/S ratio results in a relatively high RMR and DIT. These results
indicate the importance of dietary lipid profile in the treatment
of obesity.

Comments: When you're sitting on the sofa, your body is using a
small amount of energy. Of course, it's burning fat to get that
energy. The rate at which it's burning fat is called your "resting
metabolic rate." These guys gave a group of 6 men a diet high in
saturated fat, then measured their resting metabolic rates. Then,
they switched them to unsaturated fat, and measured their resting
metabolic rates again. They discovered this: when they ate
unsaturated fat, their resting metabolic rate was higher. In
other words, they were burning fat faster when they were eating
unsaturated fat instead of saturated fat. This probably also meant
their energy levels were higher on unsaturated fat.

Doug Freyburger wrote:

| Comments: When you're sitting on the sofa, your body is using a
| small amount of energy. Of course, it's burning fat to get that
| energy. The rate at which it's burning fat is called your "resting
| metabolic rate." These guys gave a group of 6 men a diet high in
| saturated fat, then measured their resting metabolic rates. Then,
| they switched them to unsaturated fat, and measured their resting
| metabolic rates again. They discovered this: when they ate
| unsaturated fat, their resting metabolic rate was higher. In
| other words, they were burning fat faster when they were eating
| unsaturated fat instead of saturated fat. This probably also meant
| their energy levels were higher on unsaturated fat.


This is the same age-old sophistry, proclaiming the mantra "saturated fat is
bad" with phony logic.

Unless the 6 men studied ate the different types of fats in the absence of
carbs, or in the presence of very low carbs, it is completely meaningless to
a low-carb way of eating. It is the combination of saturated fats and carbs
that is deadly and harmful, not the saturated fats alone. The study was not
scientifically double-blind unless this was done, ergo is probably tainted
and of no significance in its conclusions.

I'm not a scientist, but my own experience has proven that I lose weight
fastest disregarding the type of fats that I eat, only the quantity. Too
many fats=too many calories=slower weigth loss. IMO.
--
Peter
270/224/180
website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo

Dr Atkins called polyunsaturated fats the "best fats".

I would not be so fast recommending polyunsaturated fats. They contain
too much omega-6 (pro-inflamatory) and are easy to be oxidized
(pro-inflamatory).

Makeing your eggs and bacon using PUFAs seems to be a rather bad advice
to me.

Mirek

Peter,

There is a lot of much more recent study evidence that saturated fats damage
beta cells. I used to dismiss it too, but my fasting blood sugar is
deteriorating even though I've been controlling blood sugar for years. That
has made me take another look at the research. As a result, I've stopped
eating saturated fats and am replacing them with unsaturated fats wherever
possible.

Do some Medine searches on the subject and make your own decisions. This
isn't about weight loss which does proceed well with high sat fat. It's
about preserving your remaining beta cells, which as a person with diabetes
are already at least half destroyed.

-- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.4.
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm



"marengo" wrote in message
s.com...
Doug Freyburger wrote:

| Comments: When you're sitting on the sofa, your body is using a
| small amount of energy. Of course, it's burning fat to get that
| energy. The rate at which it's burning fat is called your "resting
| metabolic rate." These guys gave a group of 6 men a diet high in
| saturated fat, then measured their resting metabolic rates. Then,
| they switched them to unsaturated fat, and measured their resting
| metabolic rates again. They discovered this: when they ate
| unsaturated fat, their resting metabolic rate was higher. In
| other words, they were burning fat faster when they were eating
| unsaturated fat instead of saturated fat. This probably also meant
| their energy levels were higher on unsaturated fat.


This is the same age-old sophistry, proclaiming the mantra "saturated fat
is
bad" with phony logic.

Unless the 6 men studied ate the different types of fats in the absence of
carbs, or in the presence of very low carbs, it is completely meaningless
to
a low-carb way of eating. It is the combination of saturated fats and
carbs
that is deadly and harmful, not the saturated fats alone. The study was
not
scientifically double-blind unless this was done, ergo is probably tainted
and of no significance in its conclusions.

I'm not a scientist, but my own experience has proven that I lose weight
fastest disregarding the type of fats that I eat, only the quantity. Too
many fats=too many calories=slower weigth loss. IMO.
--
Peter
270/224/180
website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo

Mirek Fidler wrote:
::: Dr Atkins called polyunsaturated fats the "best fats".
::
:: I would not be so fast recommending polyunsaturated fats. They
:: contain too much omega-6 (pro-inflamatory) and are easy to be
:: oxidized (pro-inflamatory).

Don't you get those from nuts?

::
:: Makeing your eggs and bacon using PUFAs seems to be a rather bad
:: advice to me.
::
:: Mirek

:: I would not be so fast recommending polyunsaturated fats. They
:: contain too much omega-6 (pro-inflamatory) and are easy to be
:: oxidized (pro-inflamatory).

Don't you get those from nuts?

Yes you do. In the end, omega-6 is EFA. Anyway, you get other things
from some nuts (like omega-3 precursors AFAIK) and ususally you do not
heat them like PUFAs.

I have read that really important is omega-6 to omega-3 ratio. Ideal
seems to be up to 4:1. Anyway, by adding PUFAs to diet, you will likely
get 20:1, which is bad.

Mirek

"Mirek Fidler" wrote in message
...
:: I would not be so fast recommending polyunsaturated fats. They
:: contain too much omega-6 (pro-inflamatory) and are easy to be
:: oxidized (pro-inflamatory).

Don't you get those from nuts?

Yes you do. In the end, omega-6 is EFA. Anyway, you get other things
from some nuts (like omega-3 precursors AFAIK) and ususally you do not
heat them like PUFAs.

I have read that really important is omega-6 to omega-3 ratio. Ideal
seems to be up to 4:1. Anyway, by adding PUFAs to diet, you will likely
get 20:1, which is bad.

Mirek



that is why the easiest solution is to add omega 3's rather than reduce
omega 6's since it has a greater effect on the ratio.

Sid...

"sprudil" pí¹e v diskusním pøíspìvku
news:nkidc.53272$oR5.9284@pd7tw3no...

"Mirek Fidler" wrote in message
...
:: I would not be so fast recommending polyunsaturated fats. They
:: contain too much omega-6 (pro-inflamatory) and are easy to be
:: oxidized (pro-inflamatory).

Don't you get those from nuts?

Yes you do. In the end, omega-6 is EFA. Anyway, you get other things
from some nuts (like omega-3 precursors AFAIK) and ususally you do
not
heat them like PUFAs.

I have read that really important is omega-6 to omega-3 ratio. Ideal
seems to be up to 4:1. Anyway, by adding PUFAs to diet, you will
likely
get 20:1, which is bad.

Mirek



that is why the easiest solution is to add omega 3's rather than
reduce
omega 6's since it has a greater effect on the ratio.

Good idea, but it still does not solve problem with PUFA oxidizing.

In fact, these are just clues I found browsing the net. I do not know
whether PUFA are in fact good or bad - but I never met any mention about
MUFA (virgin olive oil) being dangerous. Even OP's article favors it. So
I think olive oil is the safest way to go.

Mirek

Jenny wrote:

There is a lot of much more recent study evidence that saturated fats damage
beta cells. I used to dismiss it too, but my fasting blood sugar is
deteriorating even though I've been controlling blood sugar for years. That
has made me take another look at the research. As a result, I've stopped
eating saturated fats and am replacing them with unsaturated fats wherever
possible.

Speculation lacking actual evidence: Human ancestors spent at least a
million years living on the beach eating seafood. They moved out of the
trees 5 million years ago and evolved walking upright on grass when
climatic changes reduced rain forest and increased steppe ecosystems
in native Africa. Check 5 and 4 million years ago. Homo erectus and
homo habilus sites have been found in the range of 2 and 1 million years
ago. Neanderthal sites in the range of 1 million years ago and less.
That leaves the million-year range around 3 million years ago a bit
blank depending how you interpret the spare fossil evidence.

Let's add it up - Other apes don't need salt the way humans do, have
hair unlike humans, don't fly lobster into Denver the way humans do.
Human infants can swin instinctively. Lacking good evidence that
humans did in fact spend a million years on the beach, it remains a
speculation. But let's take it on a leap of faith and see if it
leads anywhere.

A million years of low population and brutal evolutionary forces
optimize humans for beach life and starting the push in the general
direction of seal lions, then cut short by access to grasslands
again and an expansion across the old world that started on beaches
and proceeded into grasslands then forests everywhere.

Humans like fish. Fish has more polyunsaturated fat than red
meat from the land. Humans have a metabolic need for
polyunsaturated fatty acids and some populations even need it from
fish. Combining saturated fats and carbs causes problems and
maybe saturated fats cause problems even among low carbers but
the studies aren't in place yet.

It sure makes sense that the standard advice of seafood at least
once per week and red meat not every day could be exchanged with
any ratio that has more seafood and more white meat in place of
red meat, all the way to all seafood. Sure enough, a diet that's
all seafood, veggies and some fruits and nut is extremely healthy
for the folks that can afford it. And at least some of the reason
for the difference is a very different ratio of good fats and
best fats.

Jenny wrote:
| Peter,
|
| There is a lot of much more recent study evidence that saturated fats
| damage beta cells. I used to dismiss it too, but my fasting blood
| sugar is deteriorating even though I've been controlling blood sugar
| for years. That has made me take another look at the research. As a
| result, I've stopped eating saturated fats and am replacing them with
| unsaturated fats wherever possible.
|
| Do some Medine searches on the subject and make your own decisions.
| This isn't about weight loss which does proceed well with high sat
| fat. It's about preserving your remaining beta cells, which as a
| person with diabetes are already at least half destroyed.
|
| -- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2
| diabetes, hba1c 5.4.
| Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!
|
| Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
| strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
| http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/
|
| Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
| Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm
|
|
|
| "marengo" wrote in message
| s.com...
|| Doug Freyburger wrote:
||
||| Comments: When you're sitting on the sofa, your body is using a
||| small amount of energy. Of course, it's burning fat to get that
||| energy. The rate at which it's burning fat is called your "resting
||| metabolic rate." These guys gave a group of 6 men a diet high in
||| saturated fat, then measured their resting metabolic rates. Then,
||| they switched them to unsaturated fat, and measured their resting
||| metabolic rates again. They discovered this: when they ate
||| unsaturated fat, their resting metabolic rate was higher. In
||| other words, they were burning fat faster when they were eating
||| unsaturated fat instead of saturated fat. This probably also meant
||| their energy levels were higher on unsaturated fat.
||
||
|| This is the same age-old sophistry, proclaiming the mantra
|| "saturated fat is bad" with phony logic.
||
|| Unless the 6 men studied ate the different types of fats in the
|| absence of carbs, or in the presence of very low carbs, it is
|| completely meaningless to a low-carb way of eating. It is the
|| combination of saturated fats and carbs that is deadly and harmful,
|| not the saturated fats alone. The study was not scientifically
|| double-blind unless this was done, ergo is probably tainted and of
|| no significance in its conclusions.
||
|| I'm not a scientist, but my own experience has proven that I lose
|| weight fastest disregarding the type of fats that I eat, only the
|| quantity. Too many fats=too many calories=slower weigth loss. IMO.
|| --
|| Peter
|| 270/224/180
|| website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo

If what you say is true, then it makes sense and I can keep an open mind
about it. I was just referring to the very illogical and inaccurate mantra
that saturated fat clogs arteries and causes heart attacks. By itself it
doesn't do this. Potential destruction of beta cells is a whole different
animal,a nd I'll be keeping my eyes and ears open for new info on that one!

--
Peter
270/223/180
website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo