New Vow and Old Plan

After a winter which brought illness and a slower than expected resumption
of exercise, now is the time.

Stats and past history:
5'9 naturally stocky build.
175 in high school, soccer player.
170 in early 20s, great shape, frequently running races in orienteering.
165 in mid 20s, running 30-50 mins 6x/week (my best shape ever).
160 in late 20s, over-worked, not exercising, some muscle loss.
155 to 165 in early 30s, more toward 165 when healthy and exercising
frequently.
165 to 200 in mid 30s, bad times, bad health, got fat.

In 2000 I was 38, got down to 172 with what I call the "old plan", since
then I've been 178 to 185 about. I did atkins in 2002, and lost about 7
pounds, but nothing more for 6 months. After experiencing extremely poor
exercise energy on Atkins, I modified it to a TKD (targeted ketogenic diet).
I used a form of TKD for the remainder of 2002, and all of 2003, with no
weight loss result, but because it targets carbs at exercise, It was helpful
to maintain and it felt ok, though I still lacked my full normal exercise
energy. Last year I didn't diet as such, but tried to eat "healthy balanced
meals", and during the summer when I was training for a 50k race, my weight
was about 178, not ideal but workable. Exercise since 2000 has been
consistent at about 60mins/day as averaged out over the year.

Now I'm 42, and about 183. The plan is to somewhat modify the "Old Plan" I
followed with decent results in 2000. Basically the plan is:

1) No eating after dinner.
2) Always eat breakfast, lunch and dinner, but no large meals. Balance main
meals so they're satisfying, but not too carb heavy or fat heavy.
3) Small desserts ok but not all the time.
4) Drink herbal tea instead of snacking when possible.
5) Allow extra food in snack form for big exercise (90 mins+)
6) If I must snack otherwise, eat raw vegetables.
7) Exercise regularly 45-90 mins/day
8) Limit Caffeine severely (new rule)

I gain weight when I eat later in the day and at night. Being hungry in the
morning is key. When I let myself snack at night, I'm not hungry in the
morning, and that sets it up for the next day. The problem I've always had
is that eating at night makes it easier to sleep. I have serious trouble
sleeping when I'm trying to lose weight. That's why the caffeine rule now.
This "plan" is the common sense kind of lifestyle most kids used to be
brought up on - 3 square meals, exercise, moderation, etc.

Any advice on the hungry at night thing? Atkins didn't help this much by the
way, and it cost me the vitality I normally felt for exercise, so for me at
least it was a bad tradeoff. Given the right balance of calories in the
daytime, It should be possible to be less hungry at night, but when dieting
(calorie deficit) it's still very hard at that time of day, and also to get
to sleep.

-Tony

(183/183/165)

The problem I've always had
is that eating at night makes it easier to sleep. I have serious
trouble
sleeping when I'm trying to lose weight. That's why the caffeine rule
now.
This "plan" is the common sense kind of lifestyle most kids used to
be
brought up on - 3 square meals, exercise, moderation, etc.

Any advice on the hungry at night thing?


I think you should allow yourself to eat a snack closer to bedtime,
especially if it's over three hours since you've had dinner. Eating at
night is not an inherently bad practice, and NOT eating at night has
already been proven to be detrimental to your weight loss anyway. The
idea is to *plan* something appropriate. For example, you say you will
allow snacks in the form of raw vegetables, so why not make yourself a
small plate? Maybe add a little cheese. Try not to stray from your
planned "snack" and you might find that 1) you sleep better, 2) you are
still hungry by morning because you have not overeaten, 3) that it
becomes a "good" HABIT to replace a "bad" habit. Some carrots and raw
broccoli, even with some cheese, shouldn't keep you full for 8 straight
hours.

wrote in message
. com...
The problem I've always had
is that eating at night makes it easier to sleep. I have serious
trouble
sleeping when I'm trying to lose weight. That's why the caffeine rule
now.
This "plan" is the common sense kind of lifestyle most kids used to
be
brought up on - 3 square meals, exercise, moderation, etc.

Any advice on the hungry at night thing?

I think you should allow yourself to eat a snack closer to bedtime,
especially if it's over three hours since you've had dinner. Eating at
night is not an inherently bad practice, and NOT eating at night has
already been proven to be detrimental to your weight loss anyway. The

I hadn't heard this. Why is not eating at night detrimental to weight loss?
In the past, even on a controlled version of atkins, I didn't lose any
weight if I ate at night. For me it's just been an all around bad habit,
setting up the next day for no breakfast, etc.; it's what you might call a
trigger for me.

idea is to *plan* something appropriate. For example, you say you will
allow snacks in the form of raw vegetables, so why not make yourself a
small plate? Maybe add a little cheese. Try not to stray from your
planned "snack" and you might find that 1) you sleep better, 2) you are
still hungry by morning because you have not overeaten, 3) that it
becomes a "good" HABIT to replace a "bad" habit. Some carrots and raw
broccoli, even with some cheese, shouldn't keep you full for 8 straight
hours.

You're right, a small veggie plate probably won't do any harm. I'll consider
this. I used to snack on copious amounts of raw carrots, which I later
learned have a high glycemic index value.

Thanks, Tony

Tony wrote in message
news:WMx7e.6864$ok4.500@trndny07...

The problem I've always had
is that eating at night makes it easier to sleep. I have serious
trouble
sleeping when I'm trying to lose weight.

Any advice on the hungry at night thing?

Try a sleep aid that doesn't involve food. I find if I do a lot of
cycling or running I have no trouble with sleep. Perhaps melatonin? I
have no experience with that.

Pretty good plan, very close to what I did at least.

20lbs really isn't much to lose, just 5 months of 500 kcal/day deficit.

With your exercise regimen you'll be getting that deficit, so all you
have to do is eat for balance.

A BMR calculator says you your base caloric need is ~1800kcal/day.

So ~400kcal morning, ~400kcal lunch, ~800kcal dinner, 200 kcal for
exercise snack... saving 200 kcal of the dinner calories for later at
night might be workable, and breaking the other meals into smaller
snacks is also possible.

I've read something about carbs/protein at night, but have forgotten
it. Really, all you need to do is lose a pound a week, and with your
moderate exercise regimen and some healthy eating this shouldn't be too
much trouble. If you don't have a pressing need to lose the weight by
fall, don't stress about it. Just get your body healthy and your eating
habits tight and the weight will take care of itself.

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:40:16 -0600, "Matthew"
wrote:


Tony wrote in message
news:WMx7e.6864$ok4.500@trndny07...

The problem I've always had
is that eating at night makes it easier to sleep. I have serious
trouble
sleeping when I'm trying to lose weight.

Any advice on the hungry at night thing?

Try a sleep aid that doesn't involve food. I find if I do a lot of
cycling or running I have no trouble with sleep. Perhaps melatonin? I
have no experience with that.


While I've never had any rule against eating after dinner -- and I
will typically have a snack in the evening -- I do have one suggestion
that may be useful. I typically drink a fiber supplement -- Citrucel
(sugar free version) -- each evening before I go to bed. I find that,
if I happen to be feeling a bit hungry at bedtime but don't feel like
eating anything more, the fiber drink gives me a feeling of fullness.
Perhaps something like that would work for you.

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004

I think you should allow yourself to eat a snack closer to bedtime,
especially if it's over three hours since you've had dinner. Eating
at
night is not an inherently bad practice, and NOT eating at night has
already been proven to be detrimental to your weight loss anyway.
The

I hadn't heard this. Why is not eating at night detrimental to weight
loss?

I wasn't speaking in terms of scientific proof, I was alluding to your
post where I believe you said that not eating closer to bedtime kept
you from sleeping well, which thus, in turn, affects your progress by
messing with your hunger and body in general.


You're right, a small veggie plate probably won't do any harm. I'll
consider
this. I used to snack on copious amounts of raw carrots, which I
later
learned have a high glycemic index value.


Carrots aren't high GI unless you eat a ton, but you're right, if you
were eating a TON and it was setting you up for eating more then maybe
you should try some vegetable that either physically or mentally
doesn't have an effect on your hunger. Even, for example, a small
amount of beef jerky might be good for you to eat. Just something very
small to help you sleep. Late night "snacking" isn't good for you, but
*one* late night snack should be fine, imo.

Chris Braun wrote in message ...

While I've never had any rule against eating after dinner -- and I
will typically have a snack in the evening -- I do have one suggestion
that may be useful. I typically drink a fiber supplement -- Citrucel
(sugar free version) -- each evening before I go to bed. I find that,
if I happen to be feeling a bit hungry at bedtime but don't feel like
eating anything more, the fiber drink gives me a feeling of fullness.
Perhaps something like that would work for you.

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004

Good idea, how does that stuff taste?

-Tony

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 00:48:08 GMT, "Tony"
wrote:

Chris Braun wrote in message ...

While I've never had any rule against eating after dinner -- and I
will typically have a snack in the evening -- I do have one suggestion
that may be useful. I typically drink a fiber supplement -- Citrucel
(sugar free version) -- each evening before I go to bed. I find that,
if I happen to be feeling a bit hungry at bedtime but don't feel like
eating anything more, the fiber drink gives me a feeling of fullness.
Perhaps something like that would work for you.

Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004

Good idea, how does that stuff taste?

-Tony

I think it tastes pretty decent. It's orange-flavored. I mix it with
a bit more water than the package indicates is necessary, as it tends
to be rather thick. I think Metamucil has a similar product, but I
bought Citrucel the first time I wanted something like this and it
seemed fine so I've been using it ever since. Do look for the
sugar-free version, though.

By the way, I don't take this in order to feel full, particularly, but
because my diet tends to sometimes be a bit low in fiber as I have
trouble digesting a lot of fruit and veggies. However, a little extra
fiber wouldn't hurt most people. And the feeling of fullness is a
good side effect of consuming fiber.


Chris
262/130s/130s
started dieting July 2002, maintaining since June 2004

"Chris Braun" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:40:16 -0600, "Matthew"
wrote:


Tony wrote in message
news:WMx7e.6864$ok4.500@trndny07...

The problem I've always had
is that eating at night makes it easier to sleep. I have serious
trouble
sleeping when I'm trying to lose weight.

Any advice on the hungry at night thing?

Try a sleep aid that doesn't involve food. I find if I do a lot of
cycling or running I have no trouble with sleep. Perhaps melatonin? I
have no experience with that.

While I've never had any rule against eating after dinner -- and I
will typically have a snack in the evening -- I do have one suggestion
that may be useful. I typically drink a fiber supplement -- Citrucel
(sugar free version) -- each evening before I go to bed. I find that,
if I happen to be feeling a bit hungry at bedtime but don't feel like
eating anything more, the fiber drink gives me a feeling of fullness.
Perhaps something like that would work for you.

I often take Metamucil before bed although I've never looked at it this way,
always saw it as a 'regularity aid' that works rather well without
irritating the colon as laxatives do.

Hot milk or a milk-based drink before bedtime has been recommended as a
'sleep aid' for ages. Skim milk or a low cal drink won't add many calories
or sit there till the morning.

I'm also a 'hungry at night' type of person, however, I'm seldom hungry in
the morning. If I go to bed feeling hungry it can be difficult to sleep at
first but even then I don't wake up hungry the following day.

I can be prone to 'midnight binges' but eating substantial food before bed
usually causes very bad indigestion afterwards so I do my best to avoid them
even before taking calories into account.