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#41
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Doug Freyburger wrote:
No it doesn't. My only guess is that you're thinking that acetyl CoA is the same as ketones. Acetyl CoA is produced from fatty acids or glucose. Acetyl CoA is used in the Krebs cycle. In most drawings of the Krebs cycle Acetyl CoA is fed into the top of the circle, likely because the folks who figured out how the Krebs cycle worked decided it was the primary fuel, it having come primarily from carbs. The decision was a bit circular, but circular works fine when you're drawing a cycle. Just to try and make this clear. FFA is broken down to create acetyl-CoA. Glucose is broken down to create acetyl-CoA. Ketones are broken down to create acetyl-CoA. Its acetyl-CoA that inters the cycle so it doesn't matter to the cycle whether acetyl-CoA comes from. Acetyl CoA is not the only product of fatty acid reduction. Also produced is oxyactylketone (sp?). Are you thinking of oxaloacetate? This is the ketone that appears in the blood of folks in ketosis, along with a few others. The ketones that are produced FROM acetyl CoA a acetoacetate, beta-hydroxybutyrate, and acetone. In ketosis oxaloacetate is used in gluconeogenesis. This ketone is fed into the Krebs cycle from the right side on most drawings of the cycle. Getting fed CoA (mostly from glucose but also from fat) and oxyacetylketone both at the same time acts rather like a supercharger burning more of both types of fuel. Acetoacetate and b-hydroxybutyrate are used by muscle (including heart), kidney & brain for energy if available, its acetone that isn't used, but release. Part of the metabolic edge of ketosis is those other ketones that are formed rather than oxyactylketone. For example it's the acetone that makes the smell. The portion of energy lost to releasing these other ketones isn't enough to account for the rapid post-water loss during ketosis, so the supercharger effect seems to dominate. What in the above did I get wrong? Is Acetyl CoA an acetate rather than a ketone? Acetyl-CoA is a building block for ketone production -- as well as FFA to be stored. Acetate from pyruvate (which comes from glucose) -- it can create acetyl-CoA. That would explain why acetates are called the primary fuel, but the similarity between acetate and ketone on the level got me. Assuming that's my mistake, I'll try my original statement over: Acetate plus ketone is the only fuel anyways. There are metabolic pathways from glucose to both acetate and ketones during aerobic respiration. There are metabolic pathways from fatty acid to both acetate and ketones during aerobic respiration. Better? Still wrong? Thanks for the training. You're missing a lot of details and skipping an complete system. Lets go back to the issue that started this discussion. Cell energy can come from FFA or glucose (because they end up creating acetyl-CoA) without any need for ketones for energy. If there's an abunance to acetyl-CoA (from FFA use) along with low levels of insulin, that will then lead to ketone production. Ketones are created and are recycled back into acetyl-CoA. The body's fuel systems have multiple paths and recycle systems. Ketone production and use is just one part, of one system. I've gotten the impression that your point of view has clouded your ability clearly take in these complex systems easily because you want them to all go in a set direction. And that all the reading and discussion in this area will only confuse things more for you and delay your understanding. Put this all down and come back to it when you're not looking for the answer you want to find. All the information on this is on the web and you can get back to it when your ready. Frankly I don't have the time to go into this when I know there are there are better resources for you to learn with when your viewpoint is clear. In short, We could point to the forrest all day, but if you're only looking for oak trees, you'll never see it. -- Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm |
#42
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Hi Rudy (and Doug),
I've been watching this thread, staying out of it because frankly Doug doesn't respond to attempts by me to teach him things. That aggravates me so I passed. In my meanderings I did find a site that may help people get a handle on metabolic processes though, so here it is: http://library.thinkquest.org/~11226/ Yes, I know that they use a cartoon Captain Carbon, but the text isn't hideously dumbed down. Enjoy! Take care, Carmen |
#43
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On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:47:59 GMT, "Carmen"
wrote: Hi Rudy (and Doug), I've been watching this thread, staying out of it because frankly Doug doesn't respond to attempts by me to teach him things. That aggravates me so I passed. In my meanderings I did find a site that may help people get a handle on metabolic processes though, so here it is: http://library.thinkquest.org/~11226/ Yes, I know that they use a cartoon Captain Carbon, but the text isn't hideously dumbed down. Enjoy! Take care, Carmen Hey that's a great page Carmen. Thanks for the heads up. I made "Captain Carbon's Biochemistry Primer" #48 in the bright yellow Health Info section on The Lowcarb Retreat. The Captain covers protein and carbohydrate. I wonder if he has plans to add fat to his page? The Captain makes it easier to understand than Goldberg. Yay team! Can we make Captain Carbon required reading? You are such a good sourcer. There should be some kind of medal for that. OK enough gushing before I trigger a hyperglycemic episode. Lee Rodgers Lowcarb Retreat http://www.lowcarb.org CHAT http://www.lowcarb.org/parachat.html Low-Carb Connoisseur http://www.low-carb.com |
#45
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Carmen wrote:
http://library.thinkquest.org/~11226/ Yes, I know that they use a cartoon Captain Carbon, but the text isn't hideously dumbed down. Thanks, that is a good site... mainly because it starts at the very beginning and then progresses. Most of the other sites assume you know what and where the compounds come from. As I said before I'm self taught, never having taken a chemisty couse, so its been by want and repetion that I've learn what I have so far. So anytime you come across a good biochemistry/physiology/metablolism sites let me know. -- Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond. "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" -Emiliano Zapata Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at: http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm |
#46
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On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:47:59 GMT, Carmen wrote:
I've been watching this thread, staying out of it because frankly Doug doesn't respond to attempts by me to teach him things. Freyburger? No, not Doug Freyburger. Surely you jest. That aggravates me so I passed I know the feeling. Except for the aggravation part. Got over that years ago. |
#47
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Hi,
On 23-Aug-2004, RRzVRR wrote: Carmen wrote: http://library.thinkquest.org/~11226/ Yes, I know that they use a cartoon Captain Carbon, but the text isn't hideously dumbed down. Thanks, that is a good site... mainly because it starts at the very beginning and then progresses. Most of the other sites assume you know what and where the compounds come from. That was the best thing about it. The author(s) are good teachers. Not my forte, but I can recognize it in others. As I said before I'm self taught, never having taken a chemisty couse, so its been by want and repetion that I've learn what I have so far. So anytime you come across a good biochemistry/physiology/metablolism sites let me know. Will do. :-) Take care, carmen |
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