the dark side of soya

On Mar 16, 12:22*am, Tunderbar wrote:
I did not say that it originated in the US as you claimed I said. I
said it was the idea of an American, who was in in Asia at the time.

That's a lie. Once again, here is exactly what you posted. Anyone
can go look at it:


"Tofu is the product created by an American in the 1950's. He tried
to sell it in Asia and failed so he marketed it to the gullible us
market as an exotic and healthy food which it is not. "




Big difference.

No one in Asia bought into it. So he brought the idea to the *US where
lots of gullible Americans believed his speel.


Again, this is total bull****. Pure and simple. You have not
provided a single reference to back up the outrageous claim that Tofu
was invented by an American in the 1950's. I don't care if he did it
here or in Japan. It's pure BS. TOFU HAS BEEN AROUND FOR THOUSANDS
OF YEARS IN ASIA.

Just repeating this BS doesn't make it true. You can't provide any
reference to substantiate it and it just makes you totally
unbelievable.






And I don't see it as a minor point. * You tried to make it appear
that tofu is some new creation. *Anyone who thinks tofu originated in
the USA in the 1950s obviously knows nothing about tofu, edamame, and
similar soybean historical usage in Asian cultures. *And it just gets
worse when you continue to spew nonsense again, like in the above
paragraph. *One more time. *Tofu originated in Asia thousands of years
ago. *End of story.

The idea that was new was to use it as a staple source of protein for
the human diet for daily consumption. It was never used as a staple
because it is not a healthy source of protein. It was used as a source
of protein only in times of hardship and only when fermented.
Otherwise it was only historically used as a CONDIMENT after being
thoroughly FERMENTED to neutralize the PHYTO-ESTROGENS and the PHYTO-
TOXINS.

Yeah, been there done that. You think Tofu came into existence in
1950, created by an American. It's been used as a food in Asia for
thousands of years. Edamame has been around for thousands of years
as well. Neither of those is fermented. Neither is a condiment.
I've provided numerous references to substantiate that.

Here, one more time, just one of the references that describes where
Tofu came from. Also note that it talks about tofu possibly having
originated from a cook trying to flavor a batch of cooked soybeans
(Edamame). Note that this is a chinese food reference, that has no
axe to grind in the soybean debate:


"http://chinesefood.about.com/library/bltofuhistory.htm
Extremely popular in the Orient today, tofu was first used in China
over 2,000 years ago. Experts believe that its production began
sometime during the Han dynasty, in the second century B.C. According
to one Chinese legend, tofu was invented when a cook decided to
experiment by flavoring a batch of cooked soybeans with the compound
nagari. Instead of flavored soybeans, he wound up with bean curd.
Nagari is frequently used in the production of tofu today. From
China, tofu was introduced into Korea, and reached Japan in the eight
century A.D. "


And as for the above implication that soybeans were fermented to
neutralize phyto-estrogens, that's BS too. Unless you're gonna try
to tell us that soy sauce was invented by an American in the 1950s's
too. Because soy sauce has been around for thousands of years before
anyone knew what a phyto-estrogen was. They fermented it because
they liked it prepared that way. And they prepared Tofu and Edamame,
which are not fermented, differently for the same reason.

Now, the only part of the above that comes close to making any sense
is that in Asia soy is not a huge component of their diet. So
what? String beans aren't a major component of most peoples diets
either. Does that equate somehow to evidence of them being unfit for
consumption? BTW, I never suggested that anyone make soy the center
of their diet either.



Look, if you want to eat that crap and jeopardize your health, knock
yourself out, but don't try to foist this crap on other people. Soy is
not real food.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've said all along that people should make their own choices based on
all the information. *But they shouldn't buy into BS, scare tactics
and outright lies about food history.

BTW, we're still waiting for that reference to your other claim that
says it's illegal to label food containing genetically modified
ingredients as such. *I guess that's just another "minor claim" that
should go as an unchallenged truth.

If I say don't stick your hand in the fire, it will hurt, is that a
scare tactic? If I say don't cross the street without looking both
ways or you'll get run over, is that a scare tactic? If I say don't
have unprotected sex or you'll get an STD, is that a scare tactic? If
I say that soy is not to be eaten un-fermented in large amounts, and
if I say GMO foods, especially soybeans are not guaranteed to be
healthy food, that is fact, not a scare tactic.


The essential differences are obvious:

The analogies all involve common things that are well established as
fact and not controversial. You can't find me credible references
that say sticking your hand in a fire won't hurt, crossing the street
without looking is safe, or that unprotected sex is safe. I can
however find you many mainstream, balanced references which say soy is
safe or actually beneficial. In fact, I've already provided a long
list of some of those references.

Second, you didn't say soy is not to be eaten un-fermented in large
amounts. You're first post on this matter said:

"Soy has only been used as food when fermented and as a condiment
only.
I would not feed soy to any living creature, but most especially not
to children. "


The regulations in the US does not require that GM soy be identified ,
period.

Yes, that's true. But it sure isn't what you said which was:

" It is illegal for a food processor or packager to indicate whether
or
not the soy product is made or no made with gmo soy beans. "




If you were actually interested in whether or not unfermented soybeans
were healthy or not, you would have read some of the material I
provided, including the links in the google searches I provided. The
fact that you continue to pontificate and argue on minor points on
this issue makes it clear that you have another agenda, possible vegan
or soy industry related, or are simply too god-damned stupid and/or
close minded to actually be interested in this in a sincere manner.

LOL. You're the one claiming Tofu was created by an American in the
1950's. but I'm the one that's stupid? And now, your lack of
knowledge of the history of soy usage exposed, you want to resort to
name calling and alleging I'm linked to vegans or the soy industry?
Apparently you're not only ignorant on the soybean issue but don't
even pay any attention to this newsgroup or you would never make such
a silly allegation. I'm not related in any way to either. But I do
enjoy eating Edamame, Tofu occasionally. And I use soy flour for
cooking and baking.




To everyone else reading this, check out th elinks I provided and make
up your own mind.

That's about the only thing in this entire thread that you've said
that makes any sense at all.




If you ask me, I'd say that the last thing that you
need in soy. Any animal sourced protein will be much healthier for you
than soy. And soy milk is not frikkin' milk. It is soy bean juice with
high levels of toxic material in it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Soybeans was mostly valued for it's nitrogen fixing capabilities as a
crop. It was used in agricultural crop rotations to replenish the soil
with nitrogen. It was never valued as a food crop. Ever. Until some
dumbass American got ahold of it,.




WHOA, there!
Now while I agree that soy isn't good for you, you are completely out
of line with the dig on Americans!
Secondly, trader4 is right - tofu has been used LONG before the "'50s
by some American". It originated in ancient China. And just for
reference, ancient means prior to the 1950's.
Do some research before you go flaming people.

On Mar 16, 9:48 am, "Michigan*Medic" wrote:
Soybeans was mostly valued for it's nitrogen fixing capabilities as a
crop. It was used in agricultural crop rotations to replenish the soil
with nitrogen. It was never valued as a food crop. Ever. Until some
dumbass American got ahold of it,.

WHOA, there!
Now while I agree that soy isn't good for you, you are completely out
of line with the dig on Americans!
Secondly, trader4 is right - tofu has been used LONG before the "'50s
by some American". It originated in ancient China. And just for
reference, ancient means prior to the 1950's.
Do some research before you go flaming people.

First of all, I said ONE dumbass American. If you take that as a
slight to all Americans, then you are a dumbass too.

Second, tofu, as used in ANCIENT China, when (if) used as human food
was 100% FERMENTED. Todays tofu is 0% fermented and most, of not all
of it is GMO. Soybeans was valued as a nitrogen fixing crop. It was
not valued as a food crop. It was only used as a source of protein in
times of hardship and ONLY WHEN FERMENTED. And NONE of it was GMO.

You do some frikkin' research before you open your mouth before you
crtic people. I gave you lots of links in that google search. read
them. especially the Weston Price site.

And if you are going to criticize, read what is said and respond to
that.

First of all, I said ONE dumbass American. If you take that as a
slight to all Americans, then you are a dumbass too.

Second, tofu, as used in ANCIENT China, when (if) used as human food
was 100% FERMENTED. Todays tofu is 0% fermented and most, of not all
of it is GMO. Soybeans was valued as a nitrogen fixing crop. It was
not valued as a food crop. It was only used as a source of protein in
times of hardship and ONLY WHEN FERMENTED. And NONE of it was GMO.

You do some frikkin' research before you open your mouth before you
crtic people. I gave you lots of links in that google search. read
them. especially the Weston Price site.

And if you are going to criticize, read what is said and respond to
that.

People might take you seriously if you actually could spell and
learned how to properly talk to people and not lash out by calling
names.

Second, almost ALL food is GM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food
http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/gmfood/overview.php

So really, which is your argument? That soy is GM (for which you need
to argue against corn, wheat, etc.) or that people don't use it like
their ancestors? Because quite frankly, then you would have to
advocate not using corn, wheat, cotton, etc.

BUT AGAIN, if you had actually read what I said instead of focusing on
the dumb American comment, you would see that I also said that I AGREE
that soy is not good. Why alienate someone that AGREES with you?

This is exactly what you posted:

"Tofu is the product created by an American in the 1950's. He tried
to
sell it in Asia and failed so he marketed it to the gullible us
market
as an exotic and healthy food which it is not. "

It's obvious you don't research your own posts before you post.

Whatever. I'm not going to get into a ****ing match with you.
Perhaps you should consider proofreading your posts before sending
them.

On Mar 17, 8:10*am, "Michigan*Medic" wrote:
First of all, I said ONE dumbass American. If you take that as a
slight to all Americans, then you are a dumbass too.

Second, tofu, as used in ANCIENT China, when (if) used as human food
was 100% FERMENTED. Todays tofu is 0% fermented and most, of not all
of it is GMO. Soybeans was valued as a nitrogen fixing crop. It was
not valued as a food crop. It was only used as a source of protein in
times of hardship and ONLY WHEN FERMENTED. And NONE of it was GMO.

You do some frikkin' research before you open your mouth before you
crtic people. I gave you lots of links in that google search. read
them. especially the Weston Price site.

And if you are going to criticize, read what is said and respond to
that.

People might take you seriously if you actually could spell and
learned how to properly talk to people and not lash out by calling
names.

Second, almost ALL food is GM:

Not where I come from.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...d/overview.php

So really, which is your argument? *That soy is GM (for which you need
to argue against corn, wheat, etc.) or that people don't use it like
their ancestors? *Because quite frankly, then you would have to
advocate not using corn, wheat, cotton, etc.

I actually advocate a grainless diet. As much as possible anyways.
Grains are for the birds, literally and figuratively.


BUT AGAIN, if you had actually read what I said instead of focusing on
the dumb American comment, you would see that I also said that I AGREE
that soy is not good. *Why alienate someone that AGREES with you?

This is exactly what you posted:

"Tofu is the product created by an American in the 1950's. He tried
to
sell it in Asia and failed so he marketed it to the gullible us
market
as an exotic and healthy food which it is not. "

It's obvious you don't research your own posts before you post.

Whatever. *I'm not going to get into a ****ing match with you.
Perhaps you should consider proofreading your posts before sending
them.

I've researched it a long time ago. What I said was essentially
accurate. Soy is not real food. never has been and never will be, GMO
or not.

On Mar 17, 12:08*pm, Tunderbar wrote:
On Mar 17, 8:10*am, "Michigan*Medic" wrote:





First of all, I said ONE dumbass American. If you take that as a
slight to all Americans, then you are a dumbass too.

Second, tofu, as used in ANCIENT China, when (if) used as human food
was 100% FERMENTED. Todays tofu is 0% fermented and most, of not all
of it is GMO. Soybeans was valued as a nitrogen fixing crop. It was
not valued as a food crop. It was only used as a source of protein in
times of hardship and ONLY WHEN FERMENTED. And NONE of it was GMO.

You do some frikkin' research before you open your mouth before you
crtic people. I gave you lots of links in that google search. read
them. especially the Weston Price site.

And if you are going to criticize, read what is said and respond to
that.

People might take you seriously if you actually could spell and
learned how to properly talk to people and not lash out by calling
names.

Second, almost ALL food is GM:

Not where I come from.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...http://www.csa....

So really, which is your argument? *That soy is GM (for which you need
to argue against corn, wheat, etc.) or that people don't use it like
their ancestors? *Because quite frankly, then you would have to
advocate not using corn, wheat, cotton, etc.

I actually advocate a grainless diet. As much as possible anyways.
Grains are for the birds, literally and figuratively.







BUT AGAIN, if you had actually read what I said instead of focusing on
the dumb American comment, you would see that I also said that I AGREE
that soy is not good. *Why alienate someone that AGREES with you?

This is exactly what you posted:

"Tofu is the product created by an American in the 1950's. He tried
to
sell it in Asia and failed so he marketed it to the gullible us
market
as an exotic and healthy food which it is not. "

It's obvious you don't research your own posts before you post.

Whatever. *I'm not going to get into a ****ing match with you.
Perhaps you should consider proofreading your posts before sending
them.

I've researched it a long time ago. What I said was essentially
accurate. Soy is not real food. never has been and never will be, GMO
or not.- Hide quoted text -



Yeah right.

You said Tofu was created in the USA in the 1950's - Unbelievably
ignorant

Then when presented with numerous links showing it's been around for
thousands of years, you went on to say Tofu was created by an American
in Japan in the 1950's, but nobody there wanted it. - Unbelievably
ignorant. A simple google search would have prevented you from making
an ass of yourself.

You claimed soy was only eaten in Asia as a fermented condiment. -
Totally false, as neither Edamame nor most Tofu is fermented, nor are
they condiments and both have been around for thousands of years.

You dragged genetically modified crops into the argument as a further
scare tactic and claimed it was illegal to label genetically modified
foods as such - Totally false.

Along the way you took a pot shot at "dumb Americans".

And yet we' re suppose to believe your credibility and that what you
posted was essentially accurate. LOL

On Mar 17, 12:58*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 17, 12:08*pm, Tunderbar wrote:





On Mar 17, 8:10*am, "Michigan*Medic" wrote:

First of all, I said ONE dumbass American. If you take that as a
slight to all Americans, then you are a dumbass too.

Second, tofu, as used in ANCIENT China, when (if) used as human food
was 100% FERMENTED. Todays tofu is 0% fermented and most, of not all
of it is GMO. Soybeans was valued as a nitrogen fixing crop. It was
not valued as a food crop. It was only used as a source of protein in
times of hardship and ONLY WHEN FERMENTED. And NONE of it was GMO.

You do some frikkin' research before you open your mouth before you
crtic people. I gave you lots of links in that google search. read
them. especially the Weston Price site.

And if you are going to criticize, read what is said and respond to
that.

People might take you seriously if you actually could spell and
learned how to properly talk to people and not lash out by calling
names.

Second, almost ALL food is GM:

Not where I come from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...http://www.csa.....

So really, which is your argument? *That soy is GM (for which you need
to argue against corn, wheat, etc.) or that people don't use it like
their ancestors? *Because quite frankly, then you would have to
advocate not using corn, wheat, cotton, etc.

I actually advocate a grainless diet. As much as possible anyways.
Grains are for the birds, literally and figuratively.

BUT AGAIN, if you had actually read what I said instead of focusing on
the dumb American comment, you would see that I also said that I AGREE
that soy is not good. *Why alienate someone that AGREES with you?

This is exactly what you posted:

"Tofu is the product created by an American in the 1950's. He tried
to
sell it in Asia and failed so he marketed it to the gullible us
market
as an exotic and healthy food which it is not. "

It's obvious you don't research your own posts before you post.

Whatever. *I'm not going to get into a ****ing match with you.
Perhaps you should consider proofreading your posts before sending
them.

I've researched it a long time ago. What I said was essentially
accurate. Soy is not real food. never has been and never will be, GMO
or not.- Hide quoted text -

Yeah right.

You said Tofu was created in the USA in the 1950's *- Unbelievably
ignorant

Sigh.... I did not say it was created in the US in the 1950s. An
American discovered it in China. It existed already but it was new to
him. But it was not being utilized as a food. He thought it would be a
ceap source of protein that could be used as a food. They did not use
it as a food in China because it is not a good food. They only used
soy as a food when fermented and then only as a condiment. It was his
idea to use it as a staple. It did not take. So he marketed it in th
US as a food crop.

The Chinese did not value soy as a food crop, they valued it as a
nitrogen fixing crop. They used it in their crop rotation to
rejuvenate the soils nitrogen balance. They did not use it a s a food
crop.

Get it? Got it? Good?

Like I said. If you want to eat this crap, go for it. But don't ****
on us and tell us it's raining. Soy is not real food. If eaten in its
unferneted form and in large quantities, it is not a healthy food.

On Mar 18, 10:31*am, Tunderbar wrote:

Sigh.... I did not say it was created in the US in the 1950s. An
American discovered it in China. It existed already but it was new to
him. But it was not being utilized as a food.

Here are your own exact words:

""Tofu is the product created by an American in the 1950's. He tried
to sell it in Asia and failed so he marketed it to the gullible us
market as an exotic and healthy food which it is not. "



He thought it would be a
ceap source of protein that could be used as a food. They did not use
it as a food in China because it is not a good food. They only used
soy as a food when fermented and then only as a condiment. It was his
idea to use it as a staple. It did not take. So he marketed it in th
US as a food crop.


You obviously don't understand the history of Tofu, which goes back
thousands of years. Asians eat it as both a fermented variety and
ALSO AS A NON-FERMENTED PRODUCT. I would like to see some
references for your unique story of Tofu. I find it amazing that
with all the Asians coming to the the US for 100 years before the
1950's, that Tofu was not used in the Asian communities here long
before that and that it took an American to bring it here. With my
BS detector again on high, I suspect no such reference will be
forthcoming.

And let's address one more thing, which is that the Asians didn't use
soy as a food because it was not a good food. When did the first
allegations about soy not being "a good good" emerge? Not until very
recently with some concern over phytoestrogens. Are you going to
tell us that Asian thousands of years ago new about phytoestrogens?

BTW, those very same phytoestrogens are thought to offer health
benefits in reducing cancer and CHD. Which is why most reasonable and
credible sources that consider all the various data, don't have a
problem with soy as part of a balanced diet. I provided you with a
page full of links and references earlier, to sources that have no axe
to grind, no agenda.

And if these phytoestrogens in soy are so harmful, why don't you rail
against other foods that contain them: flaxseed, sesame seeds,
berries, oats, barley, dried beans, lentils, apples, carrots,
fennel.... Should we all run away from those too? Flaxseed has 3X
the phytoestrogen of soybeans and over 10X that found in Tofu. Yet,
I don't see you using it in muffins and similar recipes which get
posted here frequently.



The Chinese did not value soy as a food crop, they valued it as a
nitrogen fixing crop. They used it in their crop rotation to
rejuvenate the soils nitrogen balance. They did not use it a s a food
crop.



They actually valued it so much that there is written recordings of it
in religious temples dating back thousands of years. As well as it's
documented use as Tofu, Edamame, etc. I guess they must have placed
those in the soil to supplement the nitrogen. LOL


Get it? Got it? Good?

Yes, you're still clueless.



Like I said. If you want to eat this crap, go for it. But don't ****
on us and tell us it's raining. Soy is not real food. If eaten in its
unferneted form and in large quantities, it is not a healthy food.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

With your track record of bizarre assertions in this thread, why
should anyone doubt you? LOL

wrote:

I would have to say that nothing resembling many of the foods, LC or
otherwise that we eat today were available to our paleolithic
ancestors. Even something as basic as beef that we eat today is a
lot different than the game would have been back then. And many of
the common vegetables of today only came to fruition in their present
form from careful cultivation, hybridization, etc, by man in the last
thousand years or so.

Isn't there an obvious difference here? I mean, the composition of beef
is really not that much separated from the game meats available to our
ancestors. It's not like the genes of animals have dramatically changed
since they were domesticated. If you get meat from animals who were not
propped with hormones, I'd say that you get rather closely the meat that
the hunter/gatherers get. At least it is close enough to warrant usage
of the resembles term.

Soy is like a whole new type of food. I don't have competence to judge
whether it is safe or not, but I don't see it as something that comes
even close to anything that the human body evolved to eat. I see no
place for it in human diet.

I think that one should also be aware of the devastating effects of soy
production on the world's rainforests.



--
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Die Signatur läßt sich nach Belieben anpassen ;-)

Hakan wrote:

*Isn't there an obvious difference here? I mean, the composition of beef
is really not that much separated from the game meats available to our
ancestors. It's not like the genes of animals have dramatically changed
since they were domesticated. If you get meat from animals who were not
propped with hormones, I'd say that you get rather closely the meat that
the hunter/gatherers get. At least it is close enough to warrant usage
of the resembles term.

Susan already mentioned grain fed. Consider that grain fed
humans are less healthy than humans fed a hunter gatherer
diet. The same will be true of cows just less extreme. Cows
are evolved to eat grass - leaves and stems and all - not grain.

*Soy is like a whole new type of food. I don't have competence to judge
whether it is safe or not, but I don't see it as something that comes
even close to anything that the human body evolved to eat. I see no
place for it in human diet.

Legumes are domesticated recently in evolutionary terms.
Under 10,000 years. Some people are deathly allergic to
another legume peanuts. Pick any legume and you can
find someone who has problems with it. So if you want to
follow a paleolithic diet go ahead and avoid any legume as
well as any nightshade.

*I think that one should also be aware of the devastating effects of soy
production on the world's rainforests.

I don't understand this comment. Clearing land to graze cattle
is destroying rain forrest. Cycling between grain and legumes
conserves land and reduces the need for cattle to be in
pasture. Growing legumes should slightly reduce the rate
forrest is destroyed for cattle.