Dr. Atkins' Dietetic Revolution: Mu Critique?

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message

Points and calories are not the same.

This is pretty disingenuous.

Obviously points are not precisely the same as calories. However, the points
system is just a simplified way of keeping track of calories. The formula
used in the US (readily available through Google) is just calories plus some
minor modification based on fat and fiber content of the food. So it is
effectively a stand-in for calories.

And as the other poster pointed out, people are not very good at all, over
the long term, at limiting calories, either when counting them directly or
in a simplified format such as Weight Watchers points.

HG

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message

Points and calories are not the same.

This is pretty disingenuous.

Obviously points are not precisely the same as calories. However, the points
system is just a simplified way of keeping track of calories. The formula
used in the US (readily available through Google) is just calories plus some
minor modification based on fat and fiber content of the food. So it is
effectively a stand-in for calories.

And as the other poster pointed out, people are not very good at all, over
the long term, at limiting calories, either when counting them directly or
in a simplified format such as Weight Watchers points.

HG

Hannah Gruen wrote:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote

There are many that are not overweight at all and still get some of MetS
symptoms.

MetS is without symptoms.

This doesn't make sense. You must be defining the term "symptoms"
differently than most of us do. Maybe what you're trying to say is that as
Metabolic Syndrome develops, its effects may be subtle and different from
person to person? So that there may not be any definite set of readily
observable effects that can be considered diagnostic?

Certainly there are a whole bunch of common effects, such as weight gain,
all the effects that come from elevated insulin levels, instability in blood
sugar levels, etc. I'd tend to consider these as symptoms, although
recognizing that a given subject may not exhibit the same set of effects as
another. And also that in the beginning stages, the effects (or symptoms)
may be subtle and not conclusively recognizable without laboratory tests.

HG

Would suggest you look up the word "symptom" in a dictionary.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

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Hannah Gruen wrote:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message

Points and calories are not the same.

This is pretty disingenuous.

It is the truth.


Obviously points are not precisely the same as calories.

They are not the same even imprecisely.


However, the points
system is just a simplified way of keeping track of calories.

Actually, it is a proprietary way of keeping track of food amount.



The formula
used in the US (readily available through Google) is just calories plus some
minor modification based on fat and fiber content of the food.

What is the formula?


So it is
effectively a stand-in for calories.

You will have to make up your mind about what the points are exactly.


And as the other poster pointed out, people are not very good at all, over
the long term, at limiting calories, either when counting them directly

Actually *no one* (except God :-) is able to count calories directly.

or
in a simplified format such as Weight Watchers points.


And so we now have (and need) the 2PD Approach.



Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

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Hannah Gruen wrote:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote

The biochemistry of hyperketonemia causing higher rates of lipid
peroxidation (via increased production of reactive oxygen species or
ROS) has been confirmed multiple times by more than one independent
group.

For example (from Lousiana State University):

http://makeashorterlink.com/?J3A222DF9

Another example (from the University of Oklahoma):

http://makeashorterlink.com/?O1F261DF9

Other examples:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?J21323DF9

http://makeashorterlink.com/?M23321DF9

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z25362DF9

http://makeashorterlink.com/?F26312DF9

http://makeashorterlink.com/?J17322DF9


These are interesting studies, and I appreciate the effort you've gone to in
providing cites,

You are welcome.

but it should be noted that they are ALL specific to Type I
diabetics and in vitro studies,

Actually they are a mix of in vivo and in vitro studies.

and demonstrate associative relationships
between specific ketone bodies, not causative.

Actually, the in vitro parts of some of these studies provide data that
suggest causation.

This leads me to a couple of
concerns.

First, what is going on biochemical in a Type I diabetic with significantly
elevated ketone levels is significantly different from a non-insulin
dependent diabetic, or especially a relatively healthy person who has
induced ketone production through dietary means. Blood glucose levels, blood
lipid levels, and doubtless many other factors will be quite different.

Actually, for the in vitro studies, the main difference between Type I
and Type II is the insulin concentration. The Type I condition would be
low insulin. The Type II would be high. Because physiologically normal
insulin levels were used in the in vitro studies (necessary for cell
culture), the data is actually as applicable to Type IIs as to Type Is.
Indeed, there is much gathering evidence that insulin is pro-atherogenic
so that the Type II condition of *more* insulin may very well increase
lipid peroxidation.


Until these studies are repeated on non-insulin dependent diabetics and
non-diabetics, conclusions drawn re effects of ketones on lipids should be
considered suspect at best.

It remains a concern that hyperketonemia will cause vascular harm.


Secondly, associations do not prove causation.

However, in vitro studies do provide data that suggest causation.

In short, these studies,
while interesting and certainly pertinent for Type I diabetics, don't serve
for much more than an indication that similar studies need to be carried out
on non-diabetic subjects.

See above.

Being cautious, I'd say that it is probably a good idea to keep your carb
intake as high as is compatible with weight loss, but I already believe that
anyhow and it's part of the Atkins program to do that. Low-starch vegetables
and low-sugar fruits are full of antioxidants of various kinds, and the
Atkins program encourages us to load up on these, rather than grain
products, sugars, and other relatively "empty calorie" carb sources . Atkins
has always recommended taking supplemental antioxidant nutrients, too, which
would tend to mitigate effects of elevated ketone levels, if indeed there
are such effects in non-TI diabetics. (These studies do *not* demonstrate
such).

HG

The concern remains.



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Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

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"Mirek Fídler" wrote:

If they choose to stop watching how much they are eating, they will gain
only to lose again when they resume. At some point, they will choose to
just keep watching how much they are eating.

Your judgement.

My experience.

Once someone is enlightened to what is the truth, nothing
else will serve as a surrogate.

Your judgement.

More experience.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

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On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:37:02 +0100, Mirek Fídler wrote:

It is not clear that Clinton was doing anything more specific than
"low-carbing," which in his case probably was hamburgers with the buns
removed.

Is he really THAT stupid?

Mirek

Two words. Monica Lewinski.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:37:02 +0100, Mirek Fídler wrote:

It is not clear that Clinton was doing anything more specific than
"low-carbing," which in his case probably was hamburgers with the buns
removed.

Is he really THAT stupid?

Mirek

Two words. Monica Lewinski.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:29:17 +0100, Mirek Fídler wrote:

Actually, I am rather worried about your advices to anybody with BMI 20 to
start weight-loss. It is well documented that most people that start dieting
tend to gain more in the long term. I think your recommendations are
irresponsible.

So the answer is to *not* tell them to lose weight? Because they will fail?

Ime, they are ineffective because they miss the boat by failing to
educate people to "watch *how much* they are eating" and instead have
people "watch what they are eating."

That is not correct. Weigh****chers count every calorie, still their
drop-out rate is high.

Mirek

Why is that? Same can be said for all the commercialized diets. Why is
that?

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:29:17 +0100, Mirek Fídler wrote:

Actually, I am rather worried about your advices to anybody with BMI 20 to
start weight-loss. It is well documented that most people that start dieting
tend to gain more in the long term. I think your recommendations are
irresponsible.

So the answer is to *not* tell them to lose weight? Because they will fail?

Ime, they are ineffective because they miss the boat by failing to
educate people to "watch *how much* they are eating" and instead have
people "watch what they are eating."

That is not correct. Weigh****chers count every calorie, still their
drop-out rate is high.

Mirek

Why is that? Same can be said for all the commercialized diets. Why is
that?