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#21
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DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes: ||| I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the ||| muscles, right? || || Muscles hold about twice the glycogen as liver, 120g vs 70g. || ||| Hence, it is my supposition that this dumping period can be factored ||| into the time to ketosis. So you do X hours of exercise, maintain ||| diet, and wait a brief time. || || Yes, we agree! Stop agreeing with me! :-) || || Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I || don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle. Good idea.... I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like answered too! I think the liver will be cleared of glycogen relatively quickly just based on personal experience when trying to recover from a carb up. |
#22
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Rusty wrote:
|| Roger Zoul wrote: ||| DJ Delorie wrote: ||||| "Roger Zoul" writes: |||||| I'm not sure I agree with you. ||||| ||||| I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you ||||| to go into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY ||||| point was ||||| that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours ||||| of exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in ||||| ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking. ||||| |||||| Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump. ||||| ||||| Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted ||||| muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver ||||| later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the ||||| muscles are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis. ||||| ||||| I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump ||||| glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate. ||| ||| I would guess that the liver can act quickly to keep BG from going ||| low. While you may not be able to speed its natural rate, you may ||| be able to encourage it to react. ||| ||| You ||||| can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to ||||| vomit but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its ||||| glycogen. It won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast ||||| as a carb-up ||||| could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either. ||| ||| I don't think the liver can hold near as much gylcogen as the ||| muscles, right? ||| ||| ||||| |||||| So, there might be some finite time before that final step |||||| happens, |||||| but that could just be added on top of the exercise component. |||||| Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be |||||| accounted |||||| for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of |||||| time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would |||||| correspond |||||| to depleted liver glycogen. ||||| ||||| To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72 ||||| hour period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a ||||| "fast ||||| track" the OP wanted. ||| ||| the sooner you deplete muscle glycogen, the quicker you enter ||| ketosis, assuming the liver is holding a lot of glycogen in the ||| first place. ||| ||||| |||||| Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how |||||| the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles. |||||| Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a |||||| period of time. The result of doing that would be to bonk. ||||| ||||| Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their ||||| diet after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they ||||| eventually ||||| go into ketosis. ||| ||| I think one is close to being in ketosis at that point, as the ||| liver would begin dumping glycogen. At this point, ketosis is a ||| certainty provided too many carbs aren't reintroduced into the ||| diet. Hence, it is my supposition that this dumping period can be ||| factored into the time to ketosis. So you do X hours of exercise, ||| maintain diet, and wait a brief time. That would in effect ||| minimize time to ketosis and would serve the OP's inquiry. ||| ||| || Actually I knew that working your muscles to failure won't use all || the available glucose in your body, I was more interested in the || time frame || of the cycle of using all the available muscle glucose, refilling it || with glucose from the liver and repeating until no more glucose is || present/ketosis. You might post over in mwf to see if lyle will respond. I'd like to know as well. |
#23
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"Roger Zoul" writes: || Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I || don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle. Good idea.... I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like answered too! Two tidbits from Lyle: 1. Exercise does cause the liver to dump glycogen, due to hormonal signals. 2. He doesn't know how much faster the liver empties. So I guess we'll have to leave this at "exercise helps, but you need to experiment to find out how much." |
#24
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"Roger Zoul" writes: || Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, I || don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle. Good idea.... I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like answered too! Two tidbits from Lyle: 1. Exercise does cause the liver to dump glycogen, due to hormonal signals. 2. He doesn't know how much faster the liver empties. So I guess we'll have to leave this at "exercise helps, but you need to experiment to find out how much." |
#25
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DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes: ||||| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, ||||| I don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle. ||| ||| Good idea.... ||| ||| I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like ||| answered too! || || Two tidbits from Lyle: || || 1. Exercise does cause the liver to dump glycogen, due to hormonal || signals. || || 2. He doesn't know how much faster the liver empties. || || So I guess we'll have to leave this at "exercise helps, but you need || to experiment to find out how much." Thanks for the info...BTW that should have been "I wasn't trying..." I need to remember to read what I type before hitting send.... While I have no scientific proof or explanation, my personal experience is that exercise, mainly weight lifting (moderate weights, high reps) and hard cardio, combined with LC & restricted calories, very definitely accelerates the time to re-enter ketosis (nothing new there). I generally don't worry about how much work I need to do to quickly reenter, though. I just do it. |
#26
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DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes: ||||| Except I see no data that says it's a "brief" time. It's a time, ||||| I don't know how long. Maybe I'll ask Lyle. ||| ||| Good idea.... ||| ||| I was trying to be disagreeble...it is a questioned I'd like ||| answered too! || || Two tidbits from Lyle: || || 1. Exercise does cause the liver to dump glycogen, due to hormonal || signals. || || 2. He doesn't know how much faster the liver empties. || || So I guess we'll have to leave this at "exercise helps, but you need || to experiment to find out how much." Thanks for the info...BTW that should have been "I wasn't trying..." I need to remember to read what I type before hitting send.... While I have no scientific proof or explanation, my personal experience is that exercise, mainly weight lifting (moderate weights, high reps) and hard cardio, combined with LC & restricted calories, very definitely accelerates the time to re-enter ketosis (nothing new there). I generally don't worry about how much work I need to do to quickly reenter, though. I just do it. |
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