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Fast track to ketosis



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 15th, 2004, 11:13 PM
Rusty
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Default Fast track to ketosis

I know there are allot of variables but if a person did aerobic exercise
how long might it take to use enough of your glucose stores to put you
in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb reserves.
  #2  
Old September 15th, 2004, 11:25 PM
DJ Delorie
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Rusty writes:
I know there are allot of variables but if a person did aerobic
exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose stores
to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb reserves.


It doesn't work that way. Exercise uses muscle glycogen, ketosis
depends on liver glycogen. If you exercise more, it will speed the
switch to ketosis, but only because of indirect reasons - muscles are
using up more blood glucose to replete, causing the liver to dump more
glycogen into the blood (as glucose) to restore blood glucose levels.
But you still have to wait for the liver to do its job.
  #3  
Old September 15th, 2004, 11:25 PM
DJ Delorie
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Rusty writes:
I know there are allot of variables but if a person did aerobic
exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose stores
to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb reserves.


It doesn't work that way. Exercise uses muscle glycogen, ketosis
depends on liver glycogen. If you exercise more, it will speed the
switch to ketosis, but only because of indirect reasons - muscles are
using up more blood glucose to replete, causing the liver to dump more
glycogen into the blood (as glucose) to restore blood glucose levels.
But you still have to wait for the liver to do its job.
  #4  
Old September 15th, 2004, 11:55 PM
Roger Zoul
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DJ Delorie wrote:
|| Rusty writes:
||| I know there are allot of variables but if a person did aerobic
||| exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose stores
||| to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb reserves.
||
|| It doesn't work that way. Exercise uses muscle glycogen, ketosis
|| depends on liver glycogen. If you exercise more, it will speed the
|| switch to ketosis, but only because of indirect reasons - muscles are
|| using up more blood glucose to replete, causing the liver to dump
|| more glycogen into the blood (as glucose) to restore blood glucose
|| levels. But you still have to wait for the liver to do its job.

Does it matter what the reasons are? If you up the exercise more, eat less,
etc, you can speed the return to ketosis.


  #5  
Old September 15th, 2004, 11:55 PM
Roger Zoul
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DJ Delorie wrote:
|| Rusty writes:
||| I know there are allot of variables but if a person did aerobic
||| exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose stores
||| to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb reserves.
||
|| It doesn't work that way. Exercise uses muscle glycogen, ketosis
|| depends on liver glycogen. If you exercise more, it will speed the
|| switch to ketosis, but only because of indirect reasons - muscles are
|| using up more blood glucose to replete, causing the liver to dump
|| more glycogen into the blood (as glucose) to restore blood glucose
|| levels. But you still have to wait for the liver to do its job.

Does it matter what the reasons are? If you up the exercise more, eat less,
etc, you can speed the return to ketosis.


  #6  
Old September 16th, 2004, 12:18 AM
DJ Delorie
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"Roger Zoul" writes:
||| exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose stores
||| to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb reserves.

Does it matter what the reasons are? If you up the exercise more, eat less,
etc, you can speed the return to ketosis.


It does to the particular question the OP was asking. You can't just
do X hours of exercise and expect to then be in ketosis. Perhaps X
hours will cause you to *eventually* be in ketosis, and perhaps
"eventually" will be less than had you not exercised, but I was trying
to explain that it's not a direct effect so it doesn't take effect
immediately.

Plus, in the time it takes the liver to dump all those carbs, the
muscles might not be so hungry, reducing the net benefit.

But my point was, it's not X hours gets you into ketosis, because
exercise itself doesn't use up the glucose stores that affect ketosis.
  #7  
Old September 16th, 2004, 12:18 AM
DJ Delorie
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"Roger Zoul" writes:
||| exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose stores
||| to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb reserves.

Does it matter what the reasons are? If you up the exercise more, eat less,
etc, you can speed the return to ketosis.


It does to the particular question the OP was asking. You can't just
do X hours of exercise and expect to then be in ketosis. Perhaps X
hours will cause you to *eventually* be in ketosis, and perhaps
"eventually" will be less than had you not exercised, but I was trying
to explain that it's not a direct effect so it doesn't take effect
immediately.

Plus, in the time it takes the liver to dump all those carbs, the
muscles might not be so hungry, reducing the net benefit.

But my point was, it's not X hours gets you into ketosis, because
exercise itself doesn't use up the glucose stores that affect ketosis.
  #8  
Old September 16th, 2004, 01:34 AM
Roger Zoul
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Default

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes:
|||||| exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose
|||||| stores to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb
|||||| reserves.
|||
||| Does it matter what the reasons are? If you up the exercise more,
||| eat less, etc, you can speed the return to ketosis.
||
|| It does to the particular question the OP was asking. You can't just
|| do X hours of exercise and expect to then be in ketosis. Perhaps X
|| hours will cause you to *eventually* be in ketosis, and perhaps
|| "eventually" will be less than had you not exercised, but I was
|| trying
|| to explain that it's not a direct effect so it doesn't take effect
|| immediately.
||
|| Plus, in the time it takes the liver to dump all those carbs, the
|| muscles might not be so hungry, reducing the net benefit.
||
|| But my point was, it's not X hours gets you into ketosis, because
|| exercise itself doesn't use up the glucose stores that affect
|| ketosis.

I'm not sure I agree with you. It is known that the muscle can hold only so
much glycogen...the same with the liver. Based on that, and one's LBM, one
would be able to, with the proper type of exercise, exhaust the available
glycogen in the muscles. Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump. So,
there might be some finite time before that final step happens, but that
could just be added on top of the exercise component. Moreso, the draining
of liver glycogen could probably be accounted for so that the exercise,
which would be spread of some period of time anyway, could stretch over a
time span which would correspond to depleted liver glycogen. So while the
exact process that the OP causally alluded to is not what happens, that
result could likely be achieved in the manner he desires it.

No?

Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how the muscle
can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles. Hence, once ould
exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of time. The result of
doing that would be to bonk.


  #9  
Old September 16th, 2004, 01:34 AM
Roger Zoul
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Posts: n/a
Default

DJ Delorie wrote:
|| "Roger Zoul" writes:
|||||| exercise how long might it take to use enough of your glucose
|||||| stores to put you in ketosis. x hrs. of exercise = 0 carb
|||||| reserves.
|||
||| Does it matter what the reasons are? If you up the exercise more,
||| eat less, etc, you can speed the return to ketosis.
||
|| It does to the particular question the OP was asking. You can't just
|| do X hours of exercise and expect to then be in ketosis. Perhaps X
|| hours will cause you to *eventually* be in ketosis, and perhaps
|| "eventually" will be less than had you not exercised, but I was
|| trying
|| to explain that it's not a direct effect so it doesn't take effect
|| immediately.
||
|| Plus, in the time it takes the liver to dump all those carbs, the
|| muscles might not be so hungry, reducing the net benefit.
||
|| But my point was, it's not X hours gets you into ketosis, because
|| exercise itself doesn't use up the glucose stores that affect
|| ketosis.

I'm not sure I agree with you. It is known that the muscle can hold only so
much glycogen...the same with the liver. Based on that, and one's LBM, one
would be able to, with the proper type of exercise, exhaust the available
glycogen in the muscles. Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump. So,
there might be some finite time before that final step happens, but that
could just be added on top of the exercise component. Moreso, the draining
of liver glycogen could probably be accounted for so that the exercise,
which would be spread of some period of time anyway, could stretch over a
time span which would correspond to depleted liver glycogen. So while the
exact process that the OP causally alluded to is not what happens, that
result could likely be achieved in the manner he desires it.

No?

Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how the muscle
can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles. Hence, once ould
exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of time. The result of
doing that would be to bonk.


  #10  
Old September 16th, 2004, 02:23 AM
DJ Delorie
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Roger Zoul" writes:
I'm not sure I agree with you.


I think you do, but we're splitting hairs. Exercise causes you to go
into ketosis faster, yes, we all agree on that. My ONLY point was
that exercise doesn't directly deplete liver glycogen, so X hours of
exercise doesn't guarantee that at the end of X hours you're in
ketosis, which seemed to be what the OP was thinking.

Then, the liver glycgoen would eventually dump.


Right, I was trying to point out the "eventually" part. Depleted
muscles themselves do not cause ketosis. It's only when the liver
later depletes while trying to fuel internal organs while the muscles
are absorbing some of those carbs do you enter ketosis.

I haven't seen anything that shows you can force the liver to dump
glycogen faster than it's natural "blood glucose is low" rate. You
can use up muscle glycogen in a few hours (including time to vomit
but IMHO the liver still takes its own time to dump its glycogen. It
won't replete muscle glycogen anywhere near as fast as a carb-up
could, so you aren't going to deplete the liver that fast either.

So, there might be some finite time before that final step happens,
but that could just be added on top of the exercise component.
Moreso, the draining of liver glycogen could probably be accounted
for so that the exercise, which would be spread of some period of
time anyway, could stretch over a time span which would correspond
to depleted liver glycogen.


To extrapolate absurdly, the exercise of "breathing" over a 72 hour
period would put you in ketosis. Certainly, that's not a "fast track"
the OP wanted.

Over in the bicycling ng groups, people frequently talk about how
the muscle can hold about 2000 calories in glycogen in muscles.
Hence, once ould exhaust that amounts by hard riding for a period of
time. The result of doing that would be to bonk.


Right, but they're not in ketosis when they bonk. Only if their diet
after the bonk doesn't contain sufficient carbs would they eventually
go into ketosis.
 




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