ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins diet works

M.W.Smith wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::: M.W.Smith wrote:
::::: Roger Zoul wrote:
:::::
:::::: M.W.Smith wrote:
:::::::: Ron Ritzman wrote:
::::::::: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean
::::::::: meats, flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet
::::::::: (limited
::::::::: budget) my typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a
::::::::: half can of
::::::::: Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low
::::::::: carb dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of
::::::::: beef or
::::::::: pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green
::::::::: vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage,
::::::::: and bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those
::::::::: things.)
::::::::
:::::::: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem
:::::::: is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat
:::::::: foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings
:::::::: that are most dieters' downfall. For these people, the diet
:::::::: you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger
:::::::: and cravings.
::::::
:::::: Sure it does. Protein & fiber help, along with good fats.
:::::
::::: Not for me. Fiber is filling, but the full feeling doesn't
::::: eliminate hunger for me. Protein does reduce hunger for me,
::::: but not as efficiently as fat.
:::
::: Are you referring to simply sat fats? One can easily add in fats
::: to protein and fiber rich foods. I'm saying that one doens't need
::: to pig out on sat fats to do low-carb.
::
:: We're never talking about pigging out.
::

Getting an high precentage of calories from sat fat can be thought of as
pigging out on sat fats even if your total calorie intake is sufficient to
promote weight loss.

::::::::: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself,
::::::::: regardless
::::::::: of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers.
::::::::: So does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins
::::::::: diet, (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the
::::::::: dieter is exercising) the dieter is often better off then he
::::::::: was on his old diet sitting in his easy chair his only
::::::::: exercise being Budweiser curls and the 5 yard commercial
::::::::: break potty dash.
::::::::
:::::::: I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely
:::::::: nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in
:::::::: the diet.
::::::
:::::: Especially if that exercise keeps calorie consumption from being
:::::: excessive.
:::::
::::: For most people, exercise increases calorie consumption.
:::
::: Interesting. I've found this to be the case only when starting an
::: exercise program after not doing any over a period of several
::: months. And espeically so for weight training. For me, adapting to
::: a regular exercise program helps me control eating. Not exercising
::: seems to bring on increased calorie consumption for me.
::
:: Try swimming 2k in the morning before work.
::

So are you saying exericse increases calorie consumption or swimming does?

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:09:04 +0100, "M.W.Smith"
wrote:

Try swimming 2k in the morning before work.

Not a chance. I keep hitting my head on the bathtub.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:49 +0100, "M.W.Smith"
wrote:

What is the reason for high water consumption?

Flushing waste from everywhere in the body as efficiently
and quickly as possible.

Is waste flushed by water or by circulatory elements?

Is this high water consumption to offset water loss in ketosis or
water loss in Atkins at all times of the diet?

Water loss during exercise.

Hm. How much water do you consume daily?

It is your opinion, then, that Atkins, or perhaps any diet (including
the 2PDiet) would be, or could be, counterproductive to long life if
not combined with an appropriate exercise program?

Too strong a statement. I think it has been shown that
low-fat diets reduce cancer and heart disease. I'm saying
that to get the same disease statistics on low-carb,
high-fat diets, the appropriate exercise program must
accompany the diet.

If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that if you take
on Atkins and eat high sat fats, you will accelerate the probability
of heart disease. In order to balance this negative, you have to "undo
the bad" so to speak.

Is that correct?

Is it also correct, in your thinking, that a low sat fat diet (or is
it a low all fat diet) combined with the same exercise program would
be the best of all worlds?

And if that is the
case, should that program leaned to the aerobic or anaerobic ?

If by anaerobic you mean weightlifting, then it should lean
heavily toward aerobic.

ok

If by anaerobic you mean all kinds
of HIIT, then whatever suits you.

ok although many HIIT programs are quite aerobic.

Is your answer then that the exercise program should stress aerobic
qualities first?


http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:14:44 -0500, Ron Ritzman
wrote:

What is the reason for high water consumption?

Don't you know? Diet books are required to recommend 8 glasses of
dihydrogen monoxide. It's some sort of federal law or something

Oh, yeah, that.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

On 28 Oct 2003 13:09:03 GMT, ospam (Susan ) wrote:

One must quit smoking, begin meditating and socializing and exercise like mad
to get benefit from the Ornish plan.

What?

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Matti Narkia wrote:

attempts to distance oneself from Atkin's dieting snipped

What is your agenda, Matti?

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

cheesegator wrote:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote in message
...

SNIP

They did not go against Dr. Atkins' party line. He had 30 yrs to conduct
the
*safety* studies.

Here's the problem:

LC advocates have been viewed as frauds by your ilk for decades.

That wasn't Dr. Atkins excuse.

Until very
recently, any study they conducted (or partially funded) was dismissed out
of
hand by the keepers of the orthodoxy--

Pray tell who are these keepers?

who seldom took the time to read them.
These studies are also expensive to undertake.

Actually they are not as expensive as drug trials but they do take time.

Why sink lots of $$$$ into a
study whose results the "establishment" stubbornly refuses to accept.

How do you know until you do the study?


"Knowing" that the earth was flat, your kind saw no need to conduct studies
to
bear out what the LC advocates had been claiming.

Why haven't the LC advocates conducted the studies over the past 30 years?

I have some great recipes
for all the egg on your collective faces.

Those great recipes are part of the overeating problem.


1. Studies conducted by or funded by LC advocates/researchers didn't count.

They don't count because they weren't done.

2. The medical establishment, although biased against LC diets, chose not
to
conduct any major studies of the issue.

Dr. Atkins was part of the medical establishment.

Those poor *******s who did
undertake small trials were shouted down any time the elders didn't
like their
results.

Go ahead and cite those trials that were censored.

What was a guaranteed way for an MD to lose credibility from
1960
to 1990? Conduct a legitimate study of the LC phenom.

Which MD lost credibility in this manner?


If the results support existing doctrine . . . "Ha--told you so".

If the results contradict existing doctrine . . . "Well, er, it um was er a
small sample.
"One er shouldn't um extrapolate from these limited results. Er, larger
studies are
warranted . . ." {Obviously these larger studies never happened. Who wants
to
**** away one's credibility (if not livelihood) by questioning the Holy
Canon.}

I'm surprised a highly educated man like you failed to see the "Heads I Win,
Tails
You Lose" mentality in your last comment . . . or perhaps you did.

I simply write truthfully. You are welcome to review Dr. Atkins' published
comments on this topic to confirm what I have written.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:32:35 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:

Matti Narkia wrote:

attempts to distance oneself from Atkin's dieting snipped

If you had bothered to read my messages carefully, you'd noticed that I have
repeatedly stated that (unlike Atkins?) I favor getting the potential extra
fat from monounsaturated and omega-3 fatty acids.

On the other hand most of the recent LC diet trials have been done with
Atkins' or very similar diet, so when assessing these diets one has to refer
to these diets. The results with these diets have been surprisingly good
_despite_ some aspects in them which IMHO could be improved.

What is your agenda, Matti?

To find the truth. What's yours? To preserve the current dogma no matter
what?


--
Matti Narkia

Ron Ritzman wrote:

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:06:43 GMT, Matti Narkia
wrote:

In one of his usenet messages Lyle McDonald, the author the book _The
Ketogenic Diet_ (http://www.theketogenicdiet.com/), emphasizes that one
shouldn't equate Atkins' diet with a low-carb/ketogenic diet, and that
low-carb/ketogenic diet can be made a lot healthier than Atkins' diet. The
link to the message is

http://groups.google.fi/groups?selm=3EBDD62B.8E580569%40grandecomIMRETARDE D.net
(http://tinyurl.com/so0e)

And Lyle is usually right

Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, flax
oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet (limited budget) my
typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a half can of Double Q
salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low carb dressing or
lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of beef or pork I could find
on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green vegetable. I did not
constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and bunless burgers. (though I
won't say I never ate those things.)

Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, regardless of
the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So does
exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, (assuming
it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is exercising) the
dieter is often better off then he was on his old diet sitting in his
easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser curls and the 5 yard
commercial break potty dash.

--
Ron Ritzman
http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart
Smart people can figure out my email address

Does Lyle ever address the concerns about hyperketonemia itself?

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

"M.W.Smith" wrote:

Ron Ritzman wrote:
Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean meats, flax
oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet (limited budget) my
typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a half can of Double Q
salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low carb dressing or
lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of beef or pork I could find
on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green vegetable. I did not
constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, and bunless burgers. (though I
won't say I never ate those things.)

However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem
is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet.

Correct.

The high fat
foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings
that are most dieters' downfall.

Ime, after being reassured that hunger and cravings are not in themselves
harmful, the complexity/restrictions of the "diet" is what leads to the
downfall.

For these people, the diet
you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger
and cravings.


See above.


Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, regardless of
the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. So does
exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins diet, (assuming
it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the dieter is exercising) the
dieter is often better off then he was on his old diet sitting in his
easy chair his only exercise being Budweiser curls and the 5 yard
commercial break potty dash.

I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely
nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in
the diet.


Exercise likely increases the level of hyperketonemia in folks on ketogenic
LC diets. Instead of nullification there may be amplification.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/