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#81
October 29th, 2003, 07:57 AM
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Roger Zoul wrote:
M.W.Smith wrote: :: Roger Zoul wrote: :: ::: M.W.Smith wrote: ::::: Roger Zoul wrote: ::::: :::::: M.W.Smith wrote: :::::::: Ron Ritzman wrote: ::::::::: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean ::::::::: meats, flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet ::::::::: (limited ::::::::: budget) my typical breakfast was either a protein drink or a ::::::::: half can of ::::::::: Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a low ::::::::: carb dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest cut of ::::::::: beef or ::::::::: pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a green ::::::::: vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, sausage, ::::::::: and bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never ate those ::::::::: things.) :::::::: :::::::: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem :::::::: is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat :::::::: foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings :::::::: that are most dieters' downfall. For these people, the diet :::::::: you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger :::::::: and cravings. :::::: :::::: Sure it does. Protein & fiber help, along with good fats. ::::: ::::: Not for me. Fiber is filling, but the full feeling doesn't ::::: eliminate hunger for me. Protein does reduce hunger for me, ::::: but not as efficiently as fat. ::: ::: Are you referring to simply sat fats? One can easily add in fats ::: to protein and fiber rich foods. I'm saying that one doens't need ::: to pig out on sat fats to do low-carb. :: :: We're never talking about pigging out. :: Getting an high precentage of calories from sat fat can be thought of as pigging out on sat fats even if your total calorie intake is sufficient to promote weight loss. But it isn't pigging out. If you simply eliminated the carbohydrates from the standard diet, the percentage of fat skyrockets, yet you will certainly lose weight. Nobody thinks of that as pigging out. ::::::::: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, ::::::::: regardless ::::::::: of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid numbers. ::::::::: So does exercise. So even one on the "high sat fat" Atkins ::::::::: diet, (assuming it's resulting in a calorie deficit and the ::::::::: dieter is exercising) the dieter is often better off then he ::::::::: was on his old diet sitting in his easy chair his only ::::::::: exercise being Budweiser curls and the 5 yard commercial ::::::::: break potty dash. :::::::: :::::::: I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely :::::::: nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in :::::::: the diet. :::::: :::::: Especially if that exercise keeps calorie consumption from being :::::: excessive. ::::: ::::: For most people, exercise increases calorie consumption. ::: ::: Interesting. I've found this to be the case only when starting an ::: exercise program after not doing any over a period of several ::: months. And espeically so for weight training. For me, adapting to ::: a regular exercise program helps me control eating. Not exercising ::: seems to bring on increased calorie consumption for me. :: :: Try swimming 2k in the morning before work. :: So are you saying exericse increases calorie consumption or swimming does? I'm saying it depends on the exercise, how long you do it, how high an intensity level you do it at, and what you are used to doing. But swimming seems to be a special case. Competitive swimmers generally report that they are very hungry after a workout, and generally want carbs, and the same people say running or weight lifting doesn't affect them the same way. But swimmers have a higher percentage of the other kind of muscle fiber. I forget which one it is, white as opposed to red? martin 
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#82
October 29th, 2003, 08:03 AM
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
Would suggest you try doing the swimming right before dinner. That's a good suggestion, but, generally, it isn't feasible due to lack of available lane space. At most pools, lane space is available before work or at night well after the dinner hour. I can't swim at night because it gets my metabolism up and then I can't wind down to go to sleep. Besides, I prefer the early morning swim. I can eliminate the post-swim hunger with a piece of cheeze or a hard boiled egg. martin
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#83
October 29th, 2003, 09:30 AM
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Mars at the Mu_n's Edge wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:03:49 +0100, "M.W.Smith" wrote: What is the reason for high water consumption? Flushing waste from everywhere in the body as efficiently and quickly as possible. Is waste flushed by water or by circulatory elements? I think water is an important component. The waste has to be suspened in something. I assume kidney operation is triggered by excess water. The waste goes along with it. Is this high water consumption to offset water loss in ketosis or water loss in Atkins at all times of the diet? Water loss during exercise. Hm. How much water do you consume daily? I don't keep track, but its a lot more than I consumed before Atkins. Three or four of those water bottles full daily, plus many cups of very weak instant coffee. It is your opinion, then, that Atkins, or perhaps any diet (including the 2PDiet) would be, or could be, counterproductive to long life if not combined with an appropriate exercise program? Too strong a statement. I think it has been shown that low-fat diets reduce cancer and heart disease. I'm saying that to get the same disease statistics on low-carb, high-fat diets, the appropriate exercise program must accompany the diet. If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that if you take on Atkins and eat high sat fats, you will accelerate the probability of heart disease. In order to balance this negative, you have to "undo the bad" so to speak. Is that correct? That's a bit too strong. If your probability of getting heart disease was high anyway, due to genetics, smoking, stress, whatever, then being on Atkins for a long time might well magnify that higher probability, so you should take other steps to negate that increase. Is it also correct, in your thinking, that a low sat fat diet (or is it a low all fat diet) combined with the same exercise program would be the best of all worlds? If you can do it comfortably, which I can't due to hunger and cravings. First, I assume it is most important, if one is fat, to lose the weight. Losing the weight is a big plus. But, if you don't exercise while you lose the weight, you will also lose muscle, which is a negative. Second, I have noticed that since I have been eating significantly more protein on Atkins, and moderately more fat, that my strength has increased markedly. This strength increase never happened on a high-carb, low-fat diet for me. So the bottom line for me is that both diets are useful and I plan to use them both in a way I think would be consistent with the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. I will use Atkins in the late fall, through winter, and most of spring, and then I will switch to Pritikin for the late spring, summer, and early fall. This should correspond to the availability of carbs for the hunter-gatherers in the northern latitudes, which is where my ancestors are from genetically speaking. And if that is the case, should that program leaned to the aerobic or anaerobic ? If by anaerobic you mean weightlifting, then it should lean heavily toward aerobic. ok If by anaerobic you mean all kinds of HIIT, then whatever suits you. ok although many HIIT programs are quite aerobic. Is your answer then that the exercise program should stress aerobic qualities first? Yes, because these build cardio-vascular strength and capacity, and far more people die of heart and respiratory illness than die of weakness in the muscles. martin
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#84
October 29th, 2003, 12:44 PM
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:25:42 +0200, "Opinicus"
wrote: To find the truth. What's yours? To preserve the current dogma no matter what? I wish at least it would preserve its email address and stop morphing to evade kill-files. I've been on Usenet since 1993 and in my experience, the more "public" the killfiling, the more the "trolls" morph. People say "I'm killfiling you" (or *plonk*) as if these words are somehow hurting the troll. In many cases, those who say they are killfiling somebody actually don't. This is evident by the number of responses Mu gets. Killfiles are only a technical aid in ignoring people or threads so if you want to ignore someone then just shut up and ignore them. (and no I am not defending Mu's morphing) -- Ron Ritzman http://www.panix.com/~ritzlart Smart people can figure out my email address
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#85
October 29th, 2003, 03:53 PM
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:57:01 +0100, "M.W.Smith"
wrote: I'm saying it depends on the exercise, how long you do it, how high an intensity level you do it at, and what you are used to doing. But swimming seems to be a special case. Competitive swimmers generally report that they are very hungry after a workout, and generally want carbs, and the same people say running or weight lifting doesn't affect them the same way. Ime, hungry, yes, want carbs, not specifically. But swimmers have a higher percentage of the other kind of muscle fiber. I forget which one it is, white as opposed to red? Well, no one really knows for sure if that is the case about muscle fiber distributions being so generalized. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
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#86
October 29th, 2003, 03:57 PM
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:55:20 GMT, Matti Narkia
wrote: Being God's humble servant. Good for you, if it keeps you happy and out of mischief, but that hardly has any relevance to these discussions or to science for that matter. God has no relevance to science? Amazing. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
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#87
October 29th, 2003, 04:18 PM
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:30:35 +0100, "M.W.Smith"
wrote: Is waste flushed by water or by circulatory elements? I think water is an important component. The waste has to be suspened in something. I assume kidney operation is triggered by excess water. The waste goes along with it. I can't argue here, don't understand the physiology well enough. Is it also correct, in your thinking, that a low sat fat diet (or is it a low all fat diet) combined with the same exercise program would be the best of all worlds? If you can do it comfortably, which I can't due to hunger and cravings. First, I assume it is most important, if one is fat, to lose the weight. Losing the weight is a big plus. I would agree. Chung would claim the way you lose weight is sometimes more important than losing it. Second, I have noticed that since I have been eating significantly more protein on Atkins, and moderately more fat, that my strength has increased markedly. This strength increase never happened on a high-carb, low-fat diet for me. How did you test your strength gains? Is your answer then that the exercise program should stress aerobic qualities first? Yes, because these build cardio-vascular strength and capacity, and far more people die of heart and respiratory illness than die of weakness in the muscles. Yes, I get all kinds of stares from folks who know I am a strength trainer when I walk by the floor and jump on the treadmill. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.
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#88
October 29th, 2003, 05:10 PM
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
M.W.Smith wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote: :: ::: M.W.Smith wrote: ::::: Roger Zoul wrote: ::::: :::::: M.W.Smith wrote: :::::::: Roger Zoul wrote: :::::::: ::::::::: M.W.Smith wrote: ::::::::::: Ron Ritzman wrote: :::::::::::: Yea, how many Atkids are doing the diet with Salmon, lean :::::::::::: meats, flax oil and macadamia nuts? When I did the diet :::::::::::: (limited :::::::::::: budget) my typical breakfast was either a protein drink or :::::::::::: a half can of :::::::::::: Double Q salmon, lunch, a Wendy's chicken BLT salad with a :::::::::::: low carb dressing or lemon. Dinner, Chicken or the leanest :::::::::::: cut of beef or :::::::::::: pork I could find on special at Kroger, a salad and/or a :::::::::::: green vegetable. I did not constantly "pig out" on bacon, :::::::::::: sausage, and bunless burgers. (though I won't say I never :::::::::::: ate those things.) ::::::::::: ::::::::::: However, for a great many overweight people, a big problem ::::::::::: is sticking to the diet, whatever the diet. The high fat ::::::::::: foods of Atkins serve to eliminate the hunger and cravings ::::::::::: that are most dieters' downfall. For these people, the diet ::::::::::: you are talking about will not so effectively reduce hunger ::::::::::: and cravings. ::::::::: ::::::::: Sure it does. Protein & fiber help, along with good fats. :::::::: :::::::: Not for me. Fiber is filling, but the full feeling doesn't :::::::: eliminate hunger for me. Protein does reduce hunger for me, :::::::: but not as efficiently as fat. :::::: :::::: Are you referring to simply sat fats? One can easily add in fats :::::: to protein and fiber rich foods. I'm saying that one doens't :::::: need :::::: to pig out on sat fats to do low-carb. ::::: ::::: We're never talking about pigging out. ::::: ::: ::: Getting an high precentage of calories from sat fat can be thought ::: of as pigging out on sat fats even if your total calorie intake is ::: sufficient to promote weight loss. :: :: But it isn't pigging out. If you simply eliminated the :: carbohydrates from the standard diet, the percentage of fat :: skyrockets, yet you will certainly lose weight. Nobody :: thinks of that as pigging out. Sure they do....anyone one low-fat would say you're eating way too much fat - hence pigging out on fat. :: :::::::::::: Lyle made another interesting point. Weight loss itself, :::::::::::: regardless :::::::::::: of the composition of the diet, often improves lipid :::::::::::: numbers. So does exercise. So even one on the "high sat :::::::::::: fat" Atkins diet, (assuming it's resulting in a calorie :::::::::::: deficit and the dieter is exercising) the dieter is often :::::::::::: better off then he was on his old diet sitting in his easy :::::::::::: chair his only :::::::::::: exercise being Budweiser curls and the 5 yard commercial :::::::::::: break potty dash. ::::::::::: ::::::::::: I agree, but my point was that the exercise might completely ::::::::::: nullify the long term negative effects of the high fat in ::::::::::: the diet. ::::::::: ::::::::: Especially if that exercise keeps calorie consumption from ::::::::: being excessive. :::::::: :::::::: For most people, exercise increases calorie consumption. :::::: :::::: Interesting. I've found this to be the case only when starting :::::: an exercise program after not doing any over a period of several :::::: months. And espeically so for weight training. For me, adapting :::::: to :::::: a regular exercise program helps me control eating. Not :::::: exercising seems to bring on increased calorie consumption for :::::: me. ::::: ::::: Try swimming 2k in the morning before work. ::::: ::: ::: So are you saying exericse increases calorie consumption or ::: swimming does? :: :: I'm saying it depends on the exercise, how long you do it, :: how high an intensity level you do it at, and what you are :: used to doing. But swimming seems to be a special case. :: Competitive swimmers generally report that they are very :: hungry after a workout, and generally want carbs, and the :: same people say running or weight lifting doesn't affect :: them the same way. But swimmers have a higher percentage of :: the other kind of muscle fiber. I forget which one it is, :: white as opposed to red? :: :: martin
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#89
October 29th, 2003, 05:51 PM
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Mars at the Mu_n's Edge wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 23:55:20 GMT, Matti Narkia wrote: Being God's humble servant. Good for you, if it keeps you happy and out of mischief, but that hardly has any relevance to these discussions or to science for that matter. God has no relevance to science? Amazing. Must you *always* be such a ****skull? What's amazing is how you manage to be such an oily used-car salesman. What has no relevance to science is Chung's failed desire to be a humble servant of god. Just like your smarmy invocation of god as though it somehow forgives your malice and mean-spiritedness. Very christian of you. TROLLING hypocrite. Pastorio
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