If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Obesity Map
On Aug 13, 8:10 pm, wrote:
Well prisoner,..I can only tell ya that for a solid six months I literally counted calories,.weighed my food etc. [which was mainly fish,..chicken,..vegetables]. I was down to 1500-1700 cal per day, food,..drink,..the whole shebang,....I was doing a cardio & lifting program, 4 days a week,.increased it to 5gays,...40-60 min sessions.........after six months ,.....I gained a pound,...& in the mirror it sure as hell didn't look like muscle So please don't tell me it can always be done,......cause it can't It can be done...only the measures might be so drastic as to make life too unpleasant for the effort. Perhaps your genetics are such that you need to work twice as hard, or more, than me, for example...but it can be done. If you had a million dollars riding on it, I have no doubt that you'd find a way to do it! One thing to realize, though, is that "looks" -- the mirror -- can only tell you so much. Perhaps it was a pound of muscle you'd gained, but a pound dispersed among all the various muscle groups! Another thing to realize is that there is such a thing as overtraining -- yes, I find it hard to believe myself (no piano student ever over- practiced, for example; I've never heard of an Olympic gymnast overtraining) -- and it sounds like your hard-core take-no-prisoners regimen might have been counterproductive insofar as it made your body think that you were in an environment of scarcity (due to the physical hardship and much reduced calories) and thus cling onto every little fat cell (since fat generally makes more sense than muscle in a deprivation situation). But I will agree with you that six months is a long time for you not to have noticed any results at all, which is what you seem to be saying -- none at all! There's a piece of the puzzle missing...it just doesn't make sense...I am almost certain that just two months of Army basic training will have you losing lots of fat while building muscle, so...maybe you weren't working out intensely enough, despite the number of hours logged...for example, with aerobic exercises, you need to be at a certain heart rate range...for weights, you need to lift pretty heavy...I used to see some people in my gym who worked out about as often as me (when I was going five times a week for three hours on average each time) but who didn't seem to break a sweat, just casually riding on a recumbent bike, talking on the cellphone.... |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Obesity Map
"Prisoner at War" wrote in message ups.com... On Aug 13, 8:10 pm, wrote: Well prisoner,..I can only tell ya that for a solid six months I literally counted calories,.weighed my food etc. [which was mainly fish,..chicken,..vegetables]. I was down to 1500-1700 cal per day, food,..drink,..the whole shebang,....I was doing a cardio & lifting program, 4 days a week,.increased it to 5gays,...40-60 min sessions.........after six months ,.....I gained a pound,...& in the mirror it sure as hell didn't look like muscle So please don't tell me it can always be done,......cause it can't It can be done...only the measures might be so drastic as to make life too unpleasant for the effort. Perhaps your genetics are such that you need to work twice as hard, or more, than me, for example...but it can be done. If you had a million dollars riding on it, I have no doubt that you'd find a way to do it! One thing to realize, though, is that "looks" -- the mirror -- can only tell you so much. Perhaps it was a pound of muscle you'd gained, but a pound dispersed among all the various muscle groups! Another thing to realize is that there is such a thing as overtraining -- yes, I find it hard to believe myself (no piano student ever over- practiced, for example; I've never heard of an Olympic gymnast overtraining) -- and it sounds like your hard-core take-no-prisoners regimen might have been counterproductive insofar as it made your body think that you were in an environment of scarcity (due to the physical hardship and much reduced calories) and thus cling onto every little fat cell (since fat generally makes more sense than muscle in a deprivation situation). But I will agree with you that six months is a long time for you not to have noticed any results at all, which is what you seem to be saying -- none at all! There's a piece of the puzzle missing...it just doesn't make sense...I am almost certain that just two months of Army basic training will have you losing lots of fat while building muscle, so...maybe you weren't working out intensely enough, despite the number of hours logged...for example, with aerobic exercises, you need to be at a certain heart rate range...for weights, you need to lift pretty heavy...I used to see some people in my gym who worked out about as often as me (when I was going five times a week for three hours on average each time) but who didn't seem to break a sweat, just casually riding on a recumbent bike, talking on the cellphone.... Muscle is gained with high intensity low reps fat is lost with low intensity high reps. Restricting calories the body will burn the muscle conserve the fat. When I was training for sports I usually ate 5 large meals a day. Gained at a rate of 1/2 pound a week. Bob |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Obesity Map
On Aug 13, 6:35 pm, "sycochkn" wrote:
Muscle is gained with high intensity low reps Muscle is gained by exercising muscle to fatigue (or nearly so), as long as there is sufficient protein replacement afterwards. I believe that can be done either with heavier weights and low (or high) reps and with lighter weights and high reps. fat is lost with low intensity high reps. Fat is burned when you perform aerobic exercise. This can occur with high and low "intensity" (weight?) and low and high reps, to varying degrees. However, the key to burning fat is continuous or nearly continuous activity. High reps are more likely to achieve that simply because you spend more continuous time flexing muscle. But you can achieve aerobic exercise with low reps by reducing time between sets -- or otherwise maintaining a high metabolic rate (e.g. circuit training). Restricting calories the body will burn the muscle conserve the fat. This myth stems from the body's reaction to duress, for example survival situations where the body has been starved for days or weeks. If you exercise aerobically while restricting calories, you will burn fat, by definition. You will "lose" fat (i.e. avoid replenishing fat) if you burn more calories than you consume. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Obesity Map
On Aug 14, 1:15 am, joeu2004 wrote:
On Aug 13, 6:35 pm, "sycochkn" wrote: SNIP Restricting calories the body will burn the muscle conserve the fat. This myth stems from the body's reaction to duress, for example survival situations where the body has been starved for days or weeks. If you exercise aerobically while restricting calories, you will burn fat, by definition. You will "lose" fat (i.e. avoid replenishing fat) if you burn more calories than you consume. I've always wondered about that "myth"...because "Nutrient Timing," by the Head of Kinesiology at Texas University, says that protein is the very last resource the body turns to, and typically only after an hour of exercise. But I do suppose that some eager-beaver superachievers can really cut back caloric intake while so hyper-charging their workouts such that they basically induce a "starvation state" metabolism which leads to muscle loss and fat retention...hence the persistence of the myth (muscle magazine advertisements aside). |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Obesity Map
On Aug 14, 8:47 am, Prisoner at War wrote:
On Aug 14, 1:15 am, joeu2004 wrote: On Aug 13, 6:35 pm, "sycochkn" wrote: Restricting calories the body will burn the muscle conserve the fat. This myth stems from the body's reaction to duress, for example survival situations where the body has been starved for days or weeks. I've always wondered about that "myth"...because "Nutrient Timing," by the Head of Kinesiology at Texas University I am not familiar with the book or the author that you refer to. But I would be skeptical about the content of any book that is (co)authored by someone who has a commercial interest in the industry (e.g. sells nutrition products) says that protein is the very last resource the body turns to Probably correct, to some degree. and typically only after an hour of exercise. That is an exaggeration or misunderstanding. I don't know if the fault is the authors' or your interpretation. It is true that nutritional protein -- that is, protein that is consumed -- is only used by the body as needed at the moment. The body does not store "protein" (amino acids) for later use, in the same way that it stores carb (glycogen) and fat (triglyceride). Protein that is consumed and unneeded at the moment is either broken done and stored as glycogen (and indirectly as triglyceride, if I remember correctly) or disposed of as waste. "At the moment" is probably with an hour or so after consumption. But that has nothing to do with the relative timing of exercise. The author's might have said that it is wise to consume protein soon after intense exercise because the body needs amino acids to repair muscle and the immune system. But that is not the exclusive need for protein. The body uses protein (amino acids) for all sorts of things. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Obesity Map
On Aug 15, 12:40 am, joeu2004 wrote:
I am not familiar with the book or the author that you refer to. But I would be skeptical about the content of any book that is (co)authored by someone who has a commercial interest in the industry (e.g. sells nutrition products) Indeed -- turns out that his co-author is an executive with the company that makes (or helps make) Accelerade! But nothing in the book suggests any particular product...at no time did I feel any kind of hidden advertising or guerilla marketing tactic being employed...rather general principles, really...the book, short as it is, reads like a much extended and elaborated fitness magazine article, complete with sidebars.... Probably correct, to some degree. I should hope so! This overtraining business had me real worried (even though I now supplement pre, intra, and post-workout).... That is an exaggeration or misunderstanding. I don't know if the fault is the authors' or your interpretation. He states it right there in black and white. It is true that nutritional protein -- that is, protein that is consumed -- is only used by the body as needed at the moment. The body does not store "protein" (amino acids) for later use, in the same way that it stores carb (glycogen) and fat (triglyceride). Protein that is consumed and unneeded at the moment is either broken done and stored as glycogen (and indirectly as triglyceride, if I remember correctly) or disposed of as waste. "At the moment" is probably with an hour or so after consumption. But that has nothing to do with the relative timing of exercise. Oh, no, he's talking about muscle protein. That is, muscle protein is the last thing the body turns to for fuel during exercise, and that's typically after an hour of exercise with no refueling (or, one imagines, inadequate refueling). The author's might have said that it is wise to consume protein soon after intense exercise because the body needs amino acids to repair muscle and the immune system. But that is not the exclusive need for protein. The body uses protein (amino acids) for all sorts of things. What also impressed me, thanks to the book, is how adaptable muscle tissue is. It changes on, it appears, a day-to-day basis! Or can, it seems (given how one trains, eats, etc.). I'd not had such a "dynamic" view of muscle before. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Obesity Map
On Aug 15, 2:02 pm, Prisoner at War wrote:
On Aug 15, 12:40 am, joeu2004 wrote: says that protein is the very last resource the body turns to and typically only after an hour of exercise. That is an exaggeration or misunderstanding. I don't know if the fault is the authors' or your interpretation. [....] Oh, no, he's talking about muscle protein. Of course! You were clear the first time. I don't know how I misread that. That is, muscle protein is the last thing the body turns to for fuel during exercise Hmm, I think you would have to exercise for many hours before that would happen. As I recall, the metabolic path from tissue to glucose or fat (in a form usable for energy) is convoluted and very slow. That's why it is the body's "last resort"; under normal circumstances, you will have consumed something by the time the body might start to "think" about canabalizing tissue. that's typically after an hour of exercise with no refueling (or, one imagines, inadequate refueling). I do not believe that is the major cause of muscle loss during or after exercise. You (might) lose muscle as a result of normal wear and tear and the failure to repair it. At least, for normal exercise. Moreover, the body's destruction of muscle for the purpose of supplying glucose and fat for energy -- I would not call that "burning muscle" in the same way that speak of burning glucose and fat -- can happen in the absence of recreational exercise. Y'think the starving people of Africa (Sudan etc) are losing muscle because of intense aerobic exercise and failing to follow it up with some large gulps of a "designer" energy drink? ;-) But I am speaking out of school. Perhaps I should read the authors' point of view before I criticize it. No doubt I am taking your comments out of context. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Obesity Map
On Aug 15, 7:20 pm, joeu2004 wrote:
SNIP Hmm, I think you would have to exercise for many hours before that would happen. As I recall, the metabolic path from tissue to glucose or fat (in a form usable for energy) is convoluted and very slow. That's why it is the body's "last resort"; under normal circumstances, you will have consumed something by the time the body might start to "think" about canabalizing tissue. I sure hope you're right! I was always puzzled by the body cannibalism bit, but "Nutrient Timing" confirms it, and he's a department heat at Texas U, for what that's worth...but if he's right, at least I have an hour before my body will start digesting muscle instead of fat.... I do not believe that is the major cause of muscle loss during or after exercise. You (might) lose muscle as a result of normal wear and tear and the failure to repair it. At least, for normal exercise. Well, yes, it's just what you say, only looked at differently...exercise wears down the muscle...without adequate rest and refueling it's a net loss.... Moreover, the body's destruction of muscle for the purpose of supplying glucose and fat for energy -- I would not call that "burning muscle" in the same way that speak of burning glucose and fat -- can happen in the absence of recreational exercise. Y'think the starving people of Africa (Sudan etc) are losing muscle because of intense aerobic exercise and failing to follow it up with some large gulps of a "designer" energy drink? ;-) Yes, you're right, which is why a good balanced diet is important even on non-training days! But I am speaking out of school. Perhaps I should read the authors' point of view before I criticize it. No doubt I am taking your comments out of context. It's an interesting little book; I recommend it highly. Reads like a series of articles in "Runner's World" or something (even though their focus is on resistance training). I'm now trying to implement their advice; can't say I've noticed a great dramatic difference yet, but I've only just started.... |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
why all the obesity bashing?? | [email protected] | Low Carbohydrate Diets | 13 | February 6th, 2006 11:57 AM |
CBS on obesity | Cubit | Low Carbohydrate Diets | 2 | November 21st, 2005 10:14 PM |
How to Prevent Obesity | [email protected] | General Discussion | 6 | August 21st, 2005 11:06 PM |
More than anything else, THIS promotes obesity | Andrew | General Discussion | 2 | August 10th, 2005 03:38 AM |
HFCS and obesity. duh | Lorelei | Low Carbohydrate Diets | 0 | March 25th, 2004 05:04 PM |