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Heart poison



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 31st, 2012, 05:40 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
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Posts: 540
Default Heart poison


http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/08/heart-poison/

"Those nice people who make gluten-free foods with junk carbohydrate
ingredients don’t know that their products cause coronary disease and
heart attacks, cataracts, arthritis, hypertension, diabetes,
inflammation, and growth of visceral fat. Note that the small LDL
particles triggered by gluten-free carbohydrates, as in Claire’s
example, persist for 10 days after one indulgence. In other words, if
Claire only has a gluten-free slice of bread or a bagel every 10 days,
she has small LDL particles and risk for heart disease 7 days a week,
30 days a month, 12 months a year.

"So, among the several deleterious effects of gluten-free junk
carbohydrates is triggering of small LDL particles, the most common
cause for coronary disease and heart attack in North America today.
Gluten-free foods made with cornstarch, rice starch, tapioca starch,
and potato starch are poisons to your heart."

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #2  
Old August 31st, 2012, 08:07 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Doug Freyburger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,866
Default Heart poison

Dogman wrote:

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/08/heart-poison/

"Those nice people who make gluten-free foods with junk carbohydrate
ingredients don’t know that their products cause coronary disease and
heart attacks, cataracts, arthritis, hypertension, diabetes,
inflammation, and growth of visceral fat. Note that the small LDL
particles triggered by gluten-free carbohydrates, as in Claire’s
example, persist for 10 days after one indulgence. In other words, if
Claire only has a gluten-free slice of bread or a bagel every 10 days,
she has small LDL particles and risk for heart disease 7 days a week,
30 days a month, 12 months a year.

"So, among the several deleterious effects of gluten-free junk
carbohydrates is triggering of small LDL particles, the most common
cause for coronary disease and heart attack in North America today.
Gluten-free foods made with cornstarch, rice starch, tapioca starch,
and potato starch are poisons to your heart."


So the claim is that what happened with margarine will happen with
gluten free foods? Time will tell. Given the relative health of those
who use rice or potatoes as a base of a diet that never leads them to
obesity (same as using wheat before the invention of refining mills),
it's s stretch to say they are bad in small quantities except to people
who've already become fat.
  #3  
Old August 31st, 2012, 08:33 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Heart poison

On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 19:07:47 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
wrote:

Dogman wrote:

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/08/heart-poison/

"Those nice people who make gluten-free foods with junk carbohydrate
ingredients don’t know that their products cause coronary disease and
heart attacks, cataracts, arthritis, hypertension, diabetes,
inflammation, and growth of visceral fat. Note that the small LDL
particles triggered by gluten-free carbohydrates, as in Claire’s
example, persist for 10 days after one indulgence. In other words, if
Claire only has a gluten-free slice of bread or a bagel every 10 days,
she has small LDL particles and risk for heart disease 7 days a week,
30 days a month, 12 months a year.

"So, among the several deleterious effects of gluten-free junk
carbohydrates is triggering of small LDL particles, the most common
cause for coronary disease and heart attack in North America today.
Gluten-free foods made with cornstarch, rice starch, tapioca starch,
and potato starch are poisons to your heart."


So the claim is that what happened with margarine will happen with
gluten free foods? Time will tell.


I'm not sure any claim is being made, Doug, other than in his own
practice (and in various other studies) small LDL particles are a
significant risk factor for CHD. More studies would need to be done to
confirm any link between eating "gluten-free foods" and having small
LDL particles.

Given the relative health of those
who use rice or potatoes as a base of a diet that never leads them to
obesity (same as using wheat before the invention of refining mills),
it's s stretch to say they are bad in small quantities except to people
who've already become fat.


Define "relative health."

Having a high number of small LDL particles, according to recent
studies, is a strong risk factor for CHD. I would assume that applies
to many people who are not fat.

My hunch is that they're bad for various subsets of the population,
but not for everyone.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #4  
Old August 31st, 2012, 10:07 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Doug Freyburger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,866
Default Heart poison

Dogman wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:
Dogman wrote:


http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/08/heart-poison/


"Those nice people who make gluten-free foods with junk carbohydrate
ingredients don’t know that their products cause coronary disease and
heart attacks, cataracts, arthritis, hypertension, diabetes,
inflammation, and growth of visceral fat. Note that the small LDL
particles triggered by gluten-free carbohydrates, as in Claire’s
example, persist for 10 days after one indulgence. In other words, if
Claire only has a gluten-free slice of bread or a bagel every 10 days,
she has small LDL particles and risk for heart disease 7 days a week,
30 days a month, 12 months a year.


"So, among the several deleterious effects of gluten-free junk
carbohydrates is triggering of small LDL particles, the most common
cause for coronary disease and heart attack in North America today.
Gluten-free foods made with cornstarch, rice starch, tapioca starch,
and potato starch are poisons to your heart."


So the claim is that what happened with margarine will happen with
gluten free foods? Time will tell.


I'm not sure any claim is being made, Doug, other than in his own
practice (and in various other studies) small LDL particles are a
significant risk factor for CHD. More studies would need to be done to
confirm any link between eating "gluten-free foods" and having small
LDL particles.


That "the nice people" bit does imply that the folks who put such
products on the market are/were unaware of such risks. That's
definitely true of the folks who put maragine on the market decades ago.
A lot of people though maragerine was beneficial until the long term
studies showed otherwise.

Given the relative health of those
who use rice or potatoes as a base of a diet that never leads them to
obesity (same as using wheat before the invention of refining mills),
it's s stretch to say they are bad in small quantities except to people
who've already become fat.


Define "relative health."


Chuckle. A lot of people who never saw an abundance of food in their
entire lives looked heathly. Very poorly defined.

Having a high number of small LDL particles, according to recent
studies, is a strong risk factor for CHD. I would assume that applies
to many people who are not fat.

My hunch is that they're bad for various subsets of the population,
but not for everyone.


My initial hunch is it's bad for anyone who's ever gotten fat, so
that's a different hunch than yours. It's not like we can play paper
scissors rock and get the real answer. ;^)
  #5  
Old August 31st, 2012, 11:01 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Heart poison

On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 21:07:26 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
wrote:

[...]
I'm not sure any claim is being made, Doug, other than in his own
practice (and in various other studies) small LDL particles are a
significant risk factor for CHD. More studies would need to be done to
confirm any link between eating "gluten-free foods" and having small
LDL particles.


That "the nice people" bit does imply that the folks who put such
products on the market are/were unaware of such risks. That's
definitely true of the folks who put maragine on the market decades ago.
A lot of people though maragerine was beneficial until the long term
studies showed otherwise.


Given what we now know about HFCS, etc., it's not hard to imagine that
"the nice people" knew exactly what they were doing.

Heinlen's Razor says: Never attribute to malice that which can be
adequately explained by stupidity.

But when they do it over and over again? I ain't buying it.

[...]
Having a high number of small LDL particles, according to recent
studies, is a strong risk factor for CHD. I would assume that applies
to many people who are not fat.

My hunch is that they're bad for various subsets of the population,
but not for everyone.


My initial hunch is it's bad for anyone who's ever gotten fat, so
that's a different hunch than yours. It's not like we can play paper
scissors rock and get the real answer. ;^)


That's probably just as "scientific" as many of today's "studies" are.

What's the p-value for paper...rock...scissors, anyway?

Heh.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #6  
Old September 1st, 2012, 02:41 AM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 993
Default Heart poison

On Aug 31, 3:35*pm, Dogman wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 19:07:47 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger





wrote:
Dogman wrote:


http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/08/heart-poison/


"Those nice people who make gluten-free foods with junk carbohydrate
ingredients don’t know that their products cause coronary disease and
heart attacks, cataracts, arthritis, hypertension, diabetes,
inflammation, and growth of visceral fat. Note that the small LDL
particles triggered by gluten-free carbohydrates, as in Claire’s
example, persist for 10 days after one indulgence. In other words, if
Claire only has a gluten-free slice of bread or a bagel every 10 days,
she has small LDL particles and risk for heart disease 7 days a week,
30 days a month, 12 months a year.


"So, among the several deleterious effects of gluten-free junk
carbohydrates is triggering of small LDL particles, the most common
cause for coronary disease and heart attack in North America today.
Gluten-free foods made with cornstarch, rice starch, tapioca starch,
and potato starch are poisons to your heart."


So the claim is that what happened with margarine will happen with
gluten free foods? *Time will tell.


I'm not sure any claim is being made, Doug, other than in his own
practice (and in various other studies) small LDL particles are a
significant risk factor for CHD. More studies would need to be done to
confirm any link between eating "gluten-free foods" and having small
LDL particles.



Of course claims are being made. And there are plenty of people
who question "WheatBelly"'s grounding in science, his use of
studies, etc. And some of them are people with Celiac disease
who say he's misrepresenting studies, ignoring what doesn't
agree with what he claims, etc.





Given the relative health of those
who use rice or potatoes as a base of a diet that never leads them to
obesity (same as using wheat before the invention of refining mills),
it's s stretch to say they are bad in small quantities except to people
who've already become fat.


Define "relative health."


I think Doug is talking about the many people in Asian
countries who eat lots of rice and/or noodles and who
are doing fine. It's kind of like the French paradox. You
can't just look at what agrees with your views and ignore
the rest.

That evidence is a lot more compelling to me than WheatBelly's
claims that wheat is the root of all evil. I see people buying into
his claims because they cut out wheat and they are losing
weight, or feel better. But they have, in most cases, also cut
out a lot of other refined carbs, ie they are doing a reduced
carb die. In fact, that appears to be
exactly what WheatBelly is advocating in the above
excerpt. It's not just wheat, it's refined carbs.

So, which is it? Wheat or just too many refined carbs? My personal
view is it's more likely the latter. But even then, it's not that
simple.
Some people can do fine on higher carb diets.





Having a high number of small LDL particles, according to recent
studies, is a strong risk factor for CHD. I would assume that applies
to many people who are not fat.


And like so many studies, it would not surprise me to find that
in another few years there will be another study that suggests
something else.



  #7  
Old September 1st, 2012, 02:44 AM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 993
Default Heart poison

On Aug 31, 6:02*pm, Dogman wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 21:07:26 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger

wrote:

[...]

I'm not sure any claim is being made, Doug, other than in his own
practice (and in various other studies) small LDL particles are a
significant risk factor for CHD. More studies would need to be done to
confirm any link between eating "gluten-free foods" and having small
LDL particles.


That "the nice people" bit does imply that the folks who put such
products on the market are/were unaware of such risks. *That's
definitely true of the folks who put maragine on the market decades ago.
A lot of people though maragerine was beneficial until the long term
studies showed otherwise.


Given what we now know about HFCS, etc., it's not hard to imagine that
"the nice people" knew exactly what they were doing.


Another evil conspiracy theory. It couldn't be the
perfectly logical idea that the "nice people" are just giving people
what they want, ie gluten free products very similar to the ones
they are currently consuming.




  #8  
Old September 1st, 2012, 05:30 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Heart poison

On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 18:41:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[...]
So the claim is that what happened with margarine will happen with
gluten free foods? *Time will tell.


I'm not sure any claim is being made, Doug, other than in his own
practice (and in various other studies) small LDL particles are a
significant risk factor for CHD. More studies would need to be done to
confirm any link between eating "gluten-free foods" and having small
LDL particles.


Of course claims are being made. And there are plenty of people
who question "WheatBelly"'s grounding in science, his use of
studies, etc.


There are plenty of people who question the low-carb way of eating,
its grounding in science, etc. But you claim to eat low-carb anyway,
right? Why is that?

And some of them are people with Celiac disease
who say he's misrepresenting studies, ignoring what doesn't
agree with what he claims, etc.


That *is* funny, since you apparently ignore all the people who don't
agree with LCHF, HPV, HIV, prions, etc.

Admit it, you just ignore those things that don't conform with your
preconceived notions. And that's dumb.

Given the relative health of those
who use rice or potatoes as a base of a diet that never leads them to
obesity (same as using wheat before the invention of refining mills),
it's s stretch to say they are bad in small quantities except to people
who've already become fat.


Define "relative health."


I think Doug is talking


Why are you always speaking for Doug? He does a good job of doing that
himself, don't you think?

about the many people in Asian
countries who eat lots of rice and/or noodles and who
are doing fine. It's kind of like the French paradox. You
can't just look at what agrees with your views and ignore
the rest.


I don't ignore any views.

And they're actually not doing so fine.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-a...#axzz1l3sFmGFn

"Is Asia Even All That Healthier Anymore?

"Healthy, long-lived Asia isn’t so healthy and long-lived. Both China
and India are facing diabetes epidemics. In Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam,
and Thailand, diabetes is also increasing. The perfect storm – of
sedentary living, processed junk food full of carbs and bad fats, and
poor sleep – that has ravaged America and other industrialized nations
for almost a century and led to a host of debilitating illnesses is
beginning to descend upon Asia. Cooking oils have displaced
traditional animal fats and sugar intake is rising. People walk less
and eat more wheat.

"Even the low BMIs of Asian countries are misleading. At equal BMIs,
Asians generally have more body fat than other groups (PDF). So, on
average, the American or the Pacific Islander with a BMI of 25 has
less body fat than the Chinese guy with a BMI of 25. It’s not clear
whether these higher body fat levels (at lower BMIs) correspond to
increased risks for certain diseases, but it does suggest that BMI is
an unreliable barometer for a country’s leanness on a particular diet.
You can be skinny-fat with a low BMI – and it appears that significant
numbers of Asians with low BMIs fit that profile.

"So, like every other one before it, the Asian Paradox topples: there
is actually no paradox. Asian countries remain lean (if they’re
actually lean, that is) on a rice-heavy diet by virtue of lots of
low-level aerobic activity to promote insulin sensitivity, lots of
nutrient-dense food to go with that rice, and because rice is the
least offensive grain."

http://aadi.joslin.org/content/asian...betes-epidemic

But I don't eat like an Asian eats, nor do you.

That evidence is a lot more compelling to me than WheatBelly's
claims that wheat is the root of all evil.


Even if that "evidence" is mostly bull caca?

I see people buying into
his claims because they cut out wheat and they are losing
weight, or feel better. But they have, in most cases, also cut
out a lot of other refined carbs, ie they are doing a reduced
carb die.


No they haven't. If you took the time to read the comments on the
Wheat Belly site, you'd see that most of these people only illiminated
wheat. Period. Overall carb levels were otherwise maintained.

But the only valid "study" is the one you can perform on yourself.

Just stop eating wheat for 30-60 days, and watch what happens.

So, which is it? Wheat or just too many refined carbs?


It's both! But a person can get pretty far down the road by just
eliminating wheat. He can get even farther down the road by
retricting other carbs, too.

Having a high number of small LDL particles, according to recent
studies, is a strong risk factor for CHD. I would assume that applies
to many people who are not fat.


And like so many studies, it would not surprise me to find that
in another few years there will be another study that suggests
something else.


That's the way the cookie crumbles. But to generally ignore all
studies is to drive a car while wearing a blindfold!

And that's dumb.

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #9  
Old September 1st, 2012, 05:30 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Dogman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 540
Default Heart poison

On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 18:44:31 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Aug 31, 6:02*pm, Dogman wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 21:07:26 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger

wrote:


I'm not sure any claim is being made, Doug, other than in his own
practice (and in various other studies) small LDL particles are a
significant risk factor for CHD. More studies would need to be done to
confirm any link between eating "gluten-free foods" and having small
LDL particles.


That "the nice people" bit does imply that the folks who put such
products on the market are/were unaware of such risks. *That's
definitely true of the folks who put maragine on the market decades ago.
A lot of people though maragerine was beneficial until the long term
studies showed otherwise.


Given what we now know about HFCS, etc., it's not hard to imagine that
"the nice people" knew exactly what they were doing.


Another evil conspiracy theory. It couldn't be the
perfectly logical idea that the "nice people" are just giving people
what they want,


I don't remember any great demand from the people that food
manufacturers stop using sugar and start using a bunch of chemicals in
their place, or that they stop making butter and start making tubs of
chemicals instead, etc.

See: "pull" marketing.

Nota bene: One of the worst decisions (in my opinion) ever made was to
allow Big Pharma to directly advertise presciption drugs to the
public, another case of "pull" marketing (or "conspiracy") that has
had serious health consequences.

ie gluten free products very similar to the ones
they are currently consuming.


You're an excellent example of why a good number of people who eat
low-carb are unsuccessful.

You want to have your cake, and eat it, too.

Good luck with that!

--
Dogman

"I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty
about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman
  #10  
Old September 1st, 2012, 05:54 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Walter Bushell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 142
Default Heart poison

In article
,
" wrote:

On Aug 31, 6:02*pm, Dogman wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 21:07:26 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger

wrote:

[...]

I'm not sure any claim is being made, Doug, other than in his own
practice (and in various other studies) small LDL particles are a
significant risk factor for CHD. More studies would need to be done to
confirm any link between eating "gluten-free foods" and having small
LDL particles.


That "the nice people" bit does imply that the folks who put such
products on the market are/were unaware of such risks. *That's
definitely true of the folks who put maragine on the market decades ago.
A lot of people though maragerine was beneficial until the long term
studies showed otherwise.


Given what we now know about HFCS, etc., it's not hard to imagine that
"the nice people" knew exactly what they were doing.


Another evil conspiracy theory. It couldn't be the
perfectly logical idea that the "nice people" are just giving people
what they want, ie gluten free products very similar to the ones
they are currently consuming.


Truly it's hard to condemn them when the AHA is endorsing Chocolate
Covered Sugar Bombs. One has to earn a living and it's hard these days
without taking a job that is socially destructive.

--
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