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Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 18th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Bob in CT
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Default Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find

On 18 May 2004 11:01:16 -0700, Doug Freyburger wrote:

Ignoramus13397 wrote:

I find it impossible that low fat dieters ate more protein, and low
carb dieters ate less protein. It is contrary to what intuition
suggests.


The fun part is it shows that both low carbing and low fatting
work. If only that were obvious enough to justify a duh, sigh.

"Find it impossible" is irrelevant. "Contray to intuition" is
irrelevant. Measured observed facts are exactly that, measured,
observed, facts. Are you saying the studies lie in stated
facts? Or are you actually saying your intuition leads you
down the worng road? Check, wrong road.

All this shows is what non-low-carbers wildly dream that
low-carbers eat is a wild dream. And for that matter it shows
that low-fatters eat more than many think.

Low carbing causes appetite suppression in most people. It's the
greatest advantage low carb has going for it. It explains most
of the rest of the numbers. Lower appetite, less drive to eat
more food. Fat tends to reduce appetite and carbs tend to
increase appetite, so low carbers tend to eat less.

It's interesting that by month six, there was little different
between low fat and low carb. Some will have reached goal and
once at goal it no longer matters how you got there you will
stay the same weight. I wonder how much difference that made.
I do know that the metabolic advantage of ketosis gets less and
less as you have less to lose, but I thought similar happened
on low fat.


The problem with studies like this is that there are so many variables.
Granted, I'm glad that low carb showed what it did, as I think low carb is
the way to go and low fat is a lie. However, to be really good, a study
should split groups into multiple "to lose" weight classes (i.e., this
takes into account body type so that a muscular but obese person wouldn't
be the same as a person of thin stature but obese). The study should
regulate or at least try to determine how much exercising is done. How do
we know that people on the low carb diet didn't simply exercise more? If
the study really wants to study Atkins, then carbs should increase after
induction (a mere two weeks long). Also, did you note that saturated
fat was less on the low carb group?

--
Bob in CT
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  #12  
Old May 18th, 2004, 07:40 PM
Steve
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Default Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find

Ignoramus13397 wrote:
While I agree with your general philosophy, I am afraid that some
numbers became switched in the press release.


but you don't know that yet.

Steve
--
Steve
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real unless it can be seen
on television or bought in a shopping mall"
  #13  
Old May 18th, 2004, 07:42 PM
jmk
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Posts: n/a
Default Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find

On 5/18/2004 2:24 PM, Bob in CT wrote:

The problem with studies like this is that there are so many variables.
Granted, I'm glad that low carb showed what it did, as I think low carb
is the way to go and low fat is a lie.


Bob, could you please explain this? Why do you think that low fat is "a
lie?" What do you mean by that? It certainly seems to work for some.

--
jmk in NC
  #14  
Old May 18th, 2004, 07:47 PM
Bob in CT
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Posts: n/a
Default Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find

On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:42:23 -0400, jmk wrote:

On 5/18/2004 2:24 PM, Bob in CT wrote:

The problem with studies like this is that there are so many
variables. Granted, I'm glad that low carb showed what it did, as I
think low carb is the way to go and low fat is a lie.


Bob, could you please explain this? Why do you think that low fat is "a
lie?" What do you mean by that? It certainly seems to work for some.


I think it does work for some. The problem is that I thought I was one of
those people. I ate low fat for many years. I developed insulin
resistance. Was that genetic predisposition or the low fat diet? I don't
know, but I wouldn't hesitate to say the latter or at least a combination
of the two. Moreover, I could eat pasta or brown rice and be hungry with
an hour or even a half-hour of eating. Even if one believes that
saturated fat is bad (which I no longer do), "low fat" has to include fat
such as olive oil and nuts. These things sate me whereas true low fat
products do not.
So, I think low fat is a lie because it appears to cause or exacerbate
insulin resistance and requires one to forego potentially useful fats.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply
  #15  
Old May 18th, 2004, 07:53 PM
jmk
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Posts: n/a
Default Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find

On 5/18/2004 2:47 PM, Bob in CT wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:42:23 -0400, jmk wrote:

On 5/18/2004 2:24 PM, Bob in CT wrote:

The problem with studies like this is that there are so many
variables. Granted, I'm glad that low carb showed what it did, as I
think low carb is the way to go and low fat is a lie.



Bob, could you please explain this? Why do you think that low fat is
"a lie?" What do you mean by that? It certainly seems to work for some.


I think it does work for some. The problem is that I thought I was one
of those people. I ate low fat for many years. I developed insulin
resistance. Was that genetic predisposition or the low fat diet? I
don't know, but I wouldn't hesitate to say the latter or at least a
combination of the two. Moreover, I could eat pasta or brown rice and
be hungry with an hour or even a half-hour of eating. Even if one
believes that saturated fat is bad (which I no longer do), "low fat" has
to include fat such as olive oil and nuts. These things sate me whereas
true low fat products do not.
So, I think low fat is a lie because it appears to cause or exacerbate
insulin resistance and requires one to forego potentially useful fats.

But couldn't one argue that many low-carb dieters forgo potentially
useful fruits and vegetables? Does that make low-carb "a lie?"

I don't think that weight management is a one size fits all approach --
not even close to it.

--
jmk in NC
  #16  
Old May 18th, 2004, 08:26 PM
Roger Zoul
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Posts: n/a
Default Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find

Bob in CT wrote:
:: On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:42:23 -0400, jmk wrote:
::
::: On 5/18/2004 2:24 PM, Bob in CT wrote:
:::
:::: The problem with studies like this is that there are so many
:::: variables. Granted, I'm glad that low carb showed what it did, as
:::: I think low carb is the way to go and low fat is a lie.
:::
::: Bob, could you please explain this? Why do you think that low fat
::: is "a lie?" What do you mean by that? It certainly seems to work
::: for some.
:::
::
:: I think it does work for some. The problem is that I thought I was
:: one of those people. I ate low fat for many years. I developed
:: insulin resistance. Was that genetic predisposition or the low fat
:: diet? I don't know, but I wouldn't hesitate to say the latter or at
:: least a combination of the two. Moreover, I could eat pasta or
:: brown rice and be hungry with an hour or even a half-hour of eating.
:: Even if one believes that saturated fat is bad (which I no longer
:: do), "low fat" has to include fat such as olive oil and nuts. These
:: things sate me whereas true low fat products do not.
:: So, I think low fat is a lie because it appears to cause or
:: exacerbate insulin resistance and requires one to forego potentially
:: useful fats.
::

I think low-fat is a lie in the sense that it leads one to believe that fat
is bad. In the same sense, low-carb is a lie if one comes to the conclusion
that carbs are bad. Excess carbs are bad as is excess fat. Too much of
both is a killer combination. Excessive calorie intake seems to be the real
problem.

Low-fat is not a lie in the sense that if you reduce calories, you lose fat.
In that same sense, low carb is not a lie.

As a type 2 diabetic, I was able to lose fat on a low-fat diet. I ate a lot
because I had appetitie. However, I also exercised like a maniac (and hurt
myself), and as result, lost weight. On low carb, I don't have that
appetite, and hence don't have to go overboard on exercise. I feel
maintenance will be easier for me on low carb. Low carb doesn't *seem* to
support the same volume of exercise for me that low fat did, but then again,
I'm more than 10 years older now while doing low carb.




  #17  
Old May 18th, 2004, 08:27 PM
Bob in CT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find

On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:53:25 -0400, jmk wrote:

On 5/18/2004 2:47 PM, Bob in CT wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:42:23 -0400, jmk wrote:

On 5/18/2004 2:24 PM, Bob in CT wrote:

The problem with studies like this is that there are so many
variables. Granted, I'm glad that low carb showed what it did, as I
think low carb is the way to go and low fat is a lie.


Bob, could you please explain this? Why do you think that low fat is
"a lie?" What do you mean by that? It certainly seems to work for
some.


I think it does work for some. The problem is that I thought I was one
of those people. I ate low fat for many years. I developed insulin
resistance. Was that genetic predisposition or the low fat diet? I
don't know, but I wouldn't hesitate to say the latter or at least a
combination of the two. Moreover, I could eat pasta or brown rice and
be hungry with an hour or even a half-hour of eating. Even if one
believes that saturated fat is bad (which I no longer do), "low fat"
has to include fat such as olive oil and nuts. These things sate me
whereas true low fat products do not.
So, I think low fat is a lie because it appears to cause or exacerbate
insulin resistance and requires one to forego potentially useful fats.

But couldn't one argue that many low-carb dieters forgo potentially
useful fruits and vegetables? Does that make low-carb "a lie?"

I don't think that weight management is a one size fits all approach --
not even close to it.


What you say is true. Nonetheless, low carb has helped me lessen my
insulin resistance, raise my HDL, lower my triglycerides, and improve my
total choleserol/HDL ratio. Plus, I actually eat more vegetables (and
selected fruits) on low carb than I did on low fat. On low fat, I
couldn't eat salad dressings, so I typically ate more beans and whole
grains. For whatever reason, I neglected vegetables (although I did eat
tomatoes, corn, etc.), although I did eat fruits.

What I've found is that I feel so much better on low carb than on low
fat. That's another lie -- carbs give you energy. I workout more now
than I ever have. I also am way less depressed now than when I was on low
fat -- the blood sugar highs and lows on low fat became so bad that I was
always depressed. Yet one more lie (or at least something the low fat
proponents don't tell you) is blood sugar swings. Yet another lie is that
saturated fat is bad. Yet another lie is that fat itself is bad. What
about olive oil and nuts?

Should I go on?

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply
  #18  
Old May 18th, 2004, 08:27 PM
Mirek Fidler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find

"jmk" píse v diskusním príspevku
...
On 5/18/2004 2:24 PM, Bob in CT wrote:

The problem with studies like this is that there are so many

variables.
Granted, I'm glad that low carb showed what it did, as I think low

carb
is the way to go and low fat is a lie.


Bob, could you please explain this? Why do you think that low fat is

"a
lie?" What do you mean by that? It certainly seems to work for some.


IF the real cause of hear disease is increased insulin secretion due to
metabolic syndrome, which is quite probably right now, then high-carb /
low-fat diet is simply the worst imaginable diet for the purpose it is
usually recommended.

Mirek


  #19  
Old May 18th, 2004, 08:29 PM
Roger Zoul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find

Ignoramus13397 wrote:
:: While I agree with your general philosophy, I am afraid that some
:: numbers became switched in the press release.

I admit that I find the numbers a bit odd too. I certainly don't think LC
is high protein, but I would not have guessed that LC dieters eat less
protein than LC dieters, for the reasons you mentioned. If that is true,
then what does that mean for the supposed "protein sparing" benefit of LC?
LC dieters are thought to retain a greater precentage of muscle mass than LF
dieters. There are studies supporting that, aren't there?

::
:: i
::
:: In article , Doug
:: Freyburger wrote:
::: Ignoramus13397 wrote:
::::
:::: I find it impossible that low fat dieters ate more protein, and low
:::: carb dieters ate less protein. It is contrary to what intuition
:::: suggests.
:::
::: The fun part is it shows that both low carbing and low fatting
::: work. If only that were obvious enough to justify a duh, sigh.
:::
::: "Find it impossible" is irrelevant. "Contray to intuition" is
::: irrelevant. Measured observed facts are exactly that, measured,
::: observed, facts. Are you saying the studies lie in stated
::: facts? Or are you actually saying your intuition leads you
::: down the worng road? Check, wrong road.
:::
::: All this shows is what non-low-carbers wildly dream that
::: low-carbers eat is a wild dream. And for that matter it shows
::: that low-fatters eat more than many think.
:::
::: Low carbing causes appetite suppression in most people. It's the
::: greatest advantage low carb has going for it. It explains most
::: of the rest of the numbers. Lower appetite, less drive to eat
::: more food. Fat tends to reduce appetite and carbs tend to
::: increase appetite, so low carbers tend to eat less.
:::
::: It's interesting that by month six, there was little different
::: between low fat and low carb. Some will have reached goal and
::: once at goal it no longer matters how you got there you will
::: stay the same weight. I wonder how much difference that made.
::: I do know that the metabolic advantage of ketosis gets less and
::: less as you have less to lose, but I thought similar happened
::: on low fat.
::
::
:: --
:: -------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
::
char*p="char*p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}"; main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
:: "It's never too late to have a happy childhood."


  #20  
Old May 18th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Bob in CT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Low-carb v. low-fat: No clear loser, studies find

On Tue, 18 May 2004 19:27:12 GMT, Bob in CT
wrote:

On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:53:25 -0400, jmk wrote:

On 5/18/2004 2:47 PM, Bob in CT wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:42:23 -0400, jmk wrote:

On 5/18/2004 2:24 PM, Bob in CT wrote:

The problem with studies like this is that there are so many
variables. Granted, I'm glad that low carb showed what it did, as I
think low carb is the way to go and low fat is a lie.


Bob, could you please explain this? Why do you think that low fat is
"a lie?" What do you mean by that? It certainly seems to work for
some.


I think it does work for some. The problem is that I thought I was
one of those people. I ate low fat for many years. I developed
insulin resistance. Was that genetic predisposition or the low fat
diet? I don't know, but I wouldn't hesitate to say the latter or at
least a combination of the two. Moreover, I could eat pasta or brown
rice and be hungry with an hour or even a half-hour of eating. Even
if one believes that saturated fat is bad (which I no longer do), "low
fat" has to include fat such as olive oil and nuts. These things sate
me whereas true low fat products do not.
So, I think low fat is a lie because it appears to cause or exacerbate
insulin resistance and requires one to forego potentially useful fats.

But couldn't one argue that many low-carb dieters forgo potentially
useful fruits and vegetables? Does that make low-carb "a lie?"

I don't think that weight management is a one size fits all approach --
not even close to it.


What you say is true. Nonetheless, low carb has helped me lessen my
insulin resistance, raise my HDL, lower my triglycerides, and improve my
total choleserol/HDL ratio. Plus, I actually eat more vegetables (and
selected fruits) on low carb than I did on low fat. On low fat, I
couldn't eat salad dressings, so I typically ate more beans and whole
grains. For whatever reason, I neglected vegetables (although I did eat
tomatoes, corn, etc.), although I did eat fruits.

What I've found is that I feel so much better on low carb than on low
fat. That's another lie -- carbs give you energy. I workout more now
than I ever have. I also am way less depressed now than when I was on
low fat -- the blood sugar highs and lows on low fat became so bad that
I was always depressed. Yet one more lie (or at least something the low
fat proponents don't tell you) is blood sugar swings. Yet another lie
is that saturated fat is bad. Yet another lie is that fat itself is
bad. What about olive oil and nuts?

Should I go on?


Ah heck, I'll continue. Yet another lie is that it's healtier, a la the
food pyramid, to eat a plate a pasta than to eat vegetables.

--
Bob in CT
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