It's Official - Atkins Diet Can Be Deadly

Re-read the post and see why 'poor care' was in parentheses, please.

j
"motu" wrote in message
om...

"Julianne" wrote in message

Where can I buy one of those? A BS detector?

The best ones are free and firmly planted between the ears.

Seriously, some things really get under my skin and I need to just get
over
it. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard a story about what
'they'
did at a hospital or other facility as though the entire staff of a
major
medical center banded together to make a grave error in an attempt to
harm
someone.

I'm just glad we stumbled over the poor care given at
the other hospital before he had an expensive pacer deployed!

But it's OK for you to tell stories about "poor care at the other
hospital"?
Pot calling kettle and all in the very same post.

Mistakes happen and things get missed at every facility.
You've just given an example of that. Why does it bother you so much when
someone else makes similar comments?

"Ignoramus3739" wrote in message
...
In article , motu wrote:

"Julianne" wrote in message

Where can I buy one of those? A BS detector?

The best ones are free and firmly planted between the ears.

Seriously, some things really get under my skin and I need to just get
over
it. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard a story about what
'they'
did at a hospital or other facility as though the entire staff of a
major
medical center banded together to make a grave error in an attempt to
harm
someone.

I'm just glad we stumbled over the poor care given at
the other hospital before he had an expensive pacer deployed!

But it's OK for you to tell stories about "poor care at the other
hospital"?
Pot calling kettle and all in the very same post.

Mistakes happen and things get missed at every facility.
You've just given an example of that. Why does it bother you so much
when
someone else makes similar comments?

Someone said in a similar situation, "the lady doth protest too
much"...

The truth is, just because someone is "caring for sick people" does
not make them in any way morally superior or immune to
criticism. "Caring for sick people", while being a worthy occupation,
is also very attractive financially and usually there is quite a bit
of competition to become doctors and sometimes even nurses. So no
doubt, there is quite a bit of self interest in "caring for sick
people". There is nothing wrong with that, to an extent, as that helps
improve their competence, but there is no higher moral status that iss
conferred on people just because they are in that field.

I suppose you inadvertantly overlooked the post where I distinguished
between criticism and being mean and ugly. How very convenient.
Furthermore, I have never known anyone who went into any direct caregiving
position simply to make money. I know a lot of people far wealthier with
much more relaxed lifestyles than even the most success heart or brain
surgeon.

As far as higher moral status, I agree with you. I also do not beleive that
health care providers are morally inferior, either.

The best way to make an industry care for their consumers is to make
sure that their incentives are aligned with the consumers' incentives.
A simple concept that most inustries try to downplay.

There are some trustworthy businesses. Those tend to have concentrated
ownership (interests of management aligned with interests of
shareholders), intelligent owners (understanding the value of
reputation wrt the value of slightly increasing next quarterly profit
number), and operate in industries where value is transparent
(understandable) to the consumer.

I do regulatory work all kinds of business entities and have never found a
publicly traded health care provider that did well over the long run. Drug
companies, labs, etc. with a more focused scope of activity may do well but
when it comes to shareholders, there are too many people to please.

Some businesses whom I trust are Walmart, Vanguard mutual funds, and
GEICO, to name a few examples. I do not trust the american heart
association (see my another post), despite their cuddly association
with "heart health".

i

"motu" wrote in message
om...

"Julianne" wrote in message
news:TAhdb.4376$k74.3487@lakeread05...
I don't particularly appreciate the advice your friend received from the
doc, either.

Appreciate? I'd call it malpractive if the woman had caused harm to
herself
playing around with 4 such meds with no instruction other than "Here, see
what works, come back in a week." You and Ig both attach alot of
emotionality to the subject of health professionals. He scorns and you
are
defensive. I don't find either view very objective.

Maybe the use of the word 'appreciate' was taken out of context. The fact
that I don't appreciate a course of action does not, in any way, mean that I
condone it. Is it malpractice? I don't know. I would have to hear exactly
what the doc told the patient. Is that defensive? No. I just know that
there are always two sides to a story. Being a migraine patient, I
understand that no one answer is for everyone. I also know that I have
'played' with several drugs with my MD's condolences. Should a doc ask that
of someone who is not comfortable with drugs? Absolutely not. At the time
of the office visit, did the patient state that they were unsure of their
instructions and uncomfortable?

However, Iggy has made more than one derogatory reference to
the professionals in my industry.

And you have made more than one excuse for them when their actions are
less
than
professional. "they are only human" "he just didn't want to make rounds
on
the weekend" Those excuses don't exactly stand up in a court of law. It
does't make sense to do either when the given facts don't warrant it.

I humbly suggest that you take a comprehension course when it comes to
reading. I vaguely remember writing about a doc who didn't want to make
rounds on weekends and it wasn't written in a favorable light about the
doc.

A couple of weeks ago, his doctor was not
bright enough to interpret thyroid function results.

If that is true he needs a new doc.

If that is not true he needs a new doc. I would not continue to see
someone
for my own or my family's care if I had so little trust in their
judgement.
I think of it this way; if I lie unconscious or unable to make decisions
in
a hospital bed, I want to trust that doc to make good decisions for me.

It is also very
insulting to anyone who is not a physicist or an atty to state that
smart
people go into physics or law.

I am neither, I didn't feel the least bit insulted. It was a flawed
blanket
statement and I dismissed it. It obviously bothered you as you have
brought
it up a few times in the thread.
Have nutritionists been duped by the food
industry? Yes, they have. Docs have been duped by the pharmaceutical
industry, too. It happens in alot of professions to some degree. Yes, it
can have a "How were we ever that dumb?" effect. We learn and we expand
our
view.

Studpidity comes of making excuses and having tunnel vision when
crtiticism
of invalid practices or beliefs sufaces.

So, I guess I am stupid. But at least when I wake up in the morning, I will
still be stupid. You, on the other hand will still be narrow minded and
mean.


I have to wonder if he understands what it takes to earn a license in
the
health care professions

What kind of license? Nutitionist, resp. therapist, RN, LPN, lab tech,
x-ray tech, medical social worker, physical therapy...I think people of
average intelligence who get passing grades in school can manage to get
these licenses. Most people pass the state test the first time around,
they
can do a retake if they don't. It is more difficult to be accepted to med
school in the USA, it's very competitive, the costs are high, and the
course
is grueling. Is it any easier to get an engineering, science, math, or a
law degree than it was to get your RN? I don't think so.

I did not imply that a health care professional, many of which you mentioned
are not licensed, take their licensure status any less seriously than other
professions. I do, on the other hand, believe that we deserve respect. It's
obvious you don't agree but we can just agree to disagree. I don't believe
I ever said that it was harder to obtain credentials as as a lawyer or an
engineer. Rather, I said that we worked hard for licensure and we work hard
to keep it.

and what lengths we will go to protect it.

I believe one just has to provide reasonable and prudent care to keep
one's
license. And do continuing education and pay renewal fees. What other
lengths are there?

Well, let's see. I have had numerous nurses in jeopardy of losing their
licenses because of erroneous patient complaints. Want an example? I had a
nurse in GA call me one time after the end of a very long day. She made a
serious mistake regarding insulin. She got in her car and was driving to
her next patient's house when she suddenly realized she had added far too
much insulin to a bag of enteral feeding. She immediately called the family
and told them to shut off the pump. she returned back to the patient's home
and checked his blood sugar which was understandably low. The patient was
treated in the ER and released several hours later. When the patient (a
chronic CHF patient class IV) died six months later, the family sued the
nurse for mal-practice. She stood to lose everything because she was honest
about a mistake that she made and one that caused no long term damage to the
patient.

The nutritionists I have worked with are faced with enormous challenges.
snipped the many woes of nutritionists

Nutritionists demonized
butter and gave us hydrogenated vegetable oils a few years back. They
were
duped by the corn industry. One needs to think for oneself. Caveat
emptor.

I only know the few nutritionists I have worked with. The only thing I can
tell you is that they are as genuine in their beliefs and as pure in their
intentions as you could ever hope. The RD's who work at my level believe in
what they have been taught and haven't been duped by anyone! Should you
argue that the people making practice decisions were duped, I might pay
attention but you know nothing about the people who spend hours working with
patients. To be sure, they are paid a salary and have no financial
incentive to give poor information to patients.

j

"Ignoramus3739" wrote in message
...
In article , motu wrote:

"Julianne" wrote in message
news:TAhdb.4376$k74.3487@lakeread05...
I don't particularly appreciate the advice your friend received from
the
doc, either.

Appreciate? I'd call it malpractive if the woman had caused harm to
herself
playing around with 4 such meds with no instruction other than "Here,
see
what works, come back in a week." You and Ig both attach alot of
emotionality to the subject of health professionals. He scorns and you
are
defensive. I don't find either view very objective.

I do not scorn them, as such. My comment about dietitians does not
apply to the whole "health care", despite what Julianne is so
desperate to imply. I simply recognize their limitations and
incentives that are not consistent with the needs of patients.

That is certainly very comforting to know. First it is your doc, whom I
assume you have chosen with care and then it is all nutritionists but you
harbor no ill will to the health care industry. I am relieved.

It is also very
insulting to anyone who is not a physicist or an atty to state that
smart
people go into physics or law.

too bad... I am neither a physicist nor an attorney either, and I
would be doing something different from what I am doing had I been
smarter. (I would do heavy duty financial modeling). Recognizing and
facing one's intellectual limitations is a good, healthy process. I am
not that bright. So? I will have to live with what I have, but knowing
what I have is useful.

So, what you are saying is that you are not smart? I will not argue.

Have nutritionists been duped by the food
industry? Yes, they have.

Even worse than that, that "duping" was in fact entered into fairly
willingly, but quite a few nutritionists. Really, read the book, it is
full of facts.

How many books have you read? You seem to be fixated on one book. Would it
be possible for you to expand your personal library?

I have to wonder if he understands what it takes to earn a license in
the
health care professions

What kind of license? Nutitionist, resp. therapist, RN, LPN, lab tech,
x-ray tech, medical social worker, physical therapy...I think people of
average intelligence who get passing grades in school can manage to get
these licenses. Most people pass the state test the first time around,
they
can do a retake if they don't. It is more difficult to be accepted to
med
school in the USA, it's very competitive, the costs are high, and the
course
is grueling. Is it any easier to get an engineering, science, math, or
a
law degree than it was to get your RN? I don't think so.

much more difficult in fact...

Can you cite evidence? I beg to differ.

But intelligence is not the issue. I did not protest intelligence of
nurses here, if you recall, or even doctors.

It is better to have an average intelligence person who is on your
side, than a genuis who is succumbing to bad incentives.

which incentives are you referring to?

Nutritionists demonized
butter and gave us hydrogenated vegetable oils a few years back. They
were
duped by the corn industry. One needs to think for oneself. Caveat
emptor.

Not only they did it, but they did it without solid evidence.

Assuming they did so honestly (did not lie knowingly), they did it
because of faulty reasoning: they supposed that eating less of
something will make you have less of it in your body. E.g., a
suggestion to replace butter (which has cholesterol) with margarine
(which does not), was thought to be a valid suggestion even though it
was based on faulty reasoning.

An intelligent person would recognize such faulty reasoning and demand
evidence based on clinical trials, rather than bull****. Nutritionist
industry, as a whole, did not do so.

And, suppose if you had all the info they had available to them at the
time..... would you have recommended anything different? Were the RD's
simply teaching based on their accepted body of knowledge or were they
actually trying to harm patients because a food company gave them extra
money above their salary? Or maybe they are just a stupid breed. If they
were smart, they would have gone into law or physics.

i

"motu" wrote in message
om...

"Ignoramus3739"
The truth is, just because someone is "caring for sick people" does
not make them in any way morally superior or immune to
criticism. "Caring for sick people", while being a worthy occupation,
is also very attractive financially and usually there is quite a bit
of competition to become doctors and sometimes even nurses. So no
doubt, there is quite a bit of self interest in "caring for sick
people". There is nothing wrong with that, to an extent, as that helps
improve their competence, but there is no higher moral status that iss
conferred on people just because they are in that field.

I still don't understand why you disdain health care personnel so much.
Have you had bad experience with it?
Or are you responding to perceived attitude from them?

The best way to make an industry care for their consumers is to make
sure that their incentives are aligned with the consumers' incentives.
A simple concept that most inustries try to downplay.

I think this is where health care went wrong. I don't think it should be
run as a for profit business. It comes with it's own brand of corruption.
Hospitals have done the same cutting of corners and mergers in the past
few
years to the detriment of the people they once served. Too bad it can't
be
maintained on a humanitarian level. Some docs abused the insurance
system,
but now the insurance abuses the docs. The patient loses on many levels.


You might be surprised how very often hospitals and other facilties are set
up as a 'non-profit' facility because it is a good business plan.
Furthermore, up until 2000, home health agencies had to account for every
penny they spent taking care of patients and they were paid accordingly.
The regulations forbade making a profit. At that time, the industry had an
enormous amount of fraud and abuse.

Furthermore, the industry is virtually crippled because of lack of nurses
these days. It is hard enough to attract staff without operating as a
charity.

Your mention of incentives is timely. First of all, understand that
Medicare is the primary payor source in health care today. With few
exceptions, health care facilities need to be 'medicare certified' in order
to bill. Obtaining certification means most guidelines for certification
must be followed across the board within the patient population regardless
of payor source. Also, many insurance companies model their payment plans
around Medicare.

For the past 20 years, payor sources have been struggling with the issue of
over-utilization. Docs wanted their patients in the hospitals longer than
the insurance companies and Medicare, etc. This cost everyone tons of money
and so payment plans were designed to prevent overutilization but now you
have a plan where an entity gets paid the same amount for a two day stay as
for a five day stay for a comparable patient. A few, but not many,
providers abused this and you have a little patient dumping syndrome.

Without raising costs, Medicare has begun actually 'reporting' patient
outcomes. Nursing homes were first and home health agencies will follow in
October. Anyone with online access can go online and type in the name of an
agency or search by city or state and see how their providers compare to
other providers as well as the state and national average for certain
criteria. In nursing homes, for instance, you can see the latest survey
results and what percentage of patients are restrained or have pressure
ulcers. Medicare, afraid that not everyone has internet access has taken
the additional step of publishing large ads in newspapers in major
metropolitan areas for the purpose of informing people. You can bet that
payor sources, referral sources and docs are looking at these numbers. To
access this info go to www.cms.gov and click on the consumer link.

It is clearly a flawed system as clinicians collect the data and they often
don't understand it or are careless. Some of the nursing home data does not
take into consideration the number of patients admitted with the conditions
they report. But, it is a start. And my understanding is that as we go
forward, the kinds of providers listed will grow even greater. I envision
a day when managed care companies and other payor sources will consider that
data prior to contracting with a provider. Also, I can imagine consumers
taking issue with insurance companies who insist on a short list of
providers, many of whom do not have acceptable outcomes.

There is also a site called Healthgrades.com which lists Docs, hospitals,
etc. in addition to home health agencies. It takes advantage of the fact
that survey information is in the public domain and grades each provider
according to what is surveyed. I haven't looked too much at the MD info but
I frequently look up my home care clients and see what they have reported.

So, the bottom line is that the payment plans were designed to prevent abuse
and promote efficient care but as always, there are the outliers who saw
this as an incentive to render as little care as possible. By putting in
place the outcomes reporting, a second level of protection is added.

Looking at our system compared to other countries, we have a great many
advantages including enhanced access to the health care system. On the
other hand, we pay 13 cents out of every dollar for health care in this
country and that number will not be going down in the near future.

Before anyone or any group successfully puts into place reforms that makes
health care more affordable and efficient, one simple question must be
answered. Is health care a right or a privilege? Note the question is
not, "Should health care be a right or a privilege?"

j

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:02:47 -0500, "Julianne"
wrote:
"bicker 2003" 1NVAL1D wrote in message
...
On 28 Sep 2003 11:54:32 GMT, Ignoramus23498
wrote:
In article M8sdb.4439$k74.352@lakeread05, Julianne wrote:
"MH" wrote in message
"Julianne" wrote in message
Ignoramus tends to make blanket statements on anecdotal
occurances. This is one of the most flawed ways of thinking. I
hardly ever pay attention to his uneducated conclusions. They are
almost always incorrect.
And at times insulting to those of us who have devoted our careers
to taking care of sick people!
Does that make that those who take care of sick people somehow should
not be criticized?
Wise of you to ignore all the other comments about your outrageous
assertions, and try to deflect attention by putting words in
Julianne's mouth. Too bad it didn't make it through the BS detector.
Where can I buy one of those? A BS detector?

It is something you can install yourself.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...l/-/0345409469


--
¤bicker¤
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than
to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
- Carl Sagan

People are, of course, welcome to place whatever irrelevant
limitations on their ability to enjoy something that they wish.

"motu" wrote in message
om...

"Julianne" wrote in message
news:tm4eb.6084$k74.3467@lakeread05...
Re-read the post and see why 'poor care' was in parentheses, please.

Ok, there are none, (not that it matters). Did you mean quotes?
Here is a repost:

Julianne:
I'm just glad we stumbled over the poor care given at
the other hospital before he had an expensive pacer deployed!

"Poor care" was in quotation marks when I quoted your words as below, and
they were there because I put them there when I paraphrased your words as
you wrote them above. It doesn't change the content of your story or my
original point.


Except that the poor care referred to was self induced. The nurse gave the
patient the correct dosage of dig or lanoxin but because the patient thought
the nurse was giving the wrong med, he took his own pills and ended up with
a very low heart rate and corresponding blood pressure. The patient
obviously asked enough questions to get the name of the drug and I cannot
imagine a nurse not telling him why he was getting a pill if he asked but
apparently, he just thought the nurse was stupid and overdosed. You would
have to had spend time with the hit man to understand his arrogance (which
frankly, I can't understand being that he was caught and all)
motu:
But it's OK for you to tell stories about "poor care at the other
hospital"?
Pot calling kettle and all in the very same post.

Mistakes happen and things get missed at every facility.
You've just given an example of that. Why does it bother you so much
when
someone else makes similar comments?

"motu" wrote in message
om...

"Julianne" wrote in message
I also know that I have
'played' with several drugs with my MD's condolences. Should a doc ask
that
of someone who is not comfortable with drugs? Absolutely not.

Agreed.

At the time
of the office visit, did the patient state that they were unsure of
their
instructions and uncomfortable?

Yes. "Just follow the instructions that are on the bottle"
She didn't even realize there were 4 drugs until she picked up the meds at
the pharmacy.


However, Iggy has made more than one derogatory reference to
the professionals in my industry.

And you have made more than one excuse for them when their actions are
less
than
professional. "they are only human" "he just didn't want to make
rounds
on
the weekend" Those excuses don't exactly stand up in a court of law.
It
does't make sense to do either when the given facts don't warrant it.

I humbly suggest that you take a comprehension course when it comes to
reading. I vaguely remember writing about a doc who didn't want to make
rounds on weekends and it wasn't written in a favorable light about the
doc.

My comprehension and memory seem to be intact :-)
Sorry yours is vague, there's always google if you care.
I don't typically archive so looking up my own posts are pointless. You
also said he was lazy and chewed you out, but you "forgave" him and made
excuses for both his treatment of you and the patient who was
"challenging".
I said you should have demanded an apology, you didn't deserve that kind
of
treatment from him.
The doc had an uncontrolled hypertension patient who lived out in the
swamp.
Pt. got a copter ride.
I have good memories of stories, bad ones for where I left my keys.

That particular doc? The hypertensive SWAT team story? The patient was
extremely challenging and the doc clearly wasn't up to the task. Did he owe
me an apology? I could give a flip. Most people do the best that they can
and his best was pathetically inadequate. I understand how frustrated he
was with the patient but there is no law that says you have to keep a
patient you can't care for adequately. He is not typical of the docs I
usually work with, though,

I am neither, I didn't feel the least bit insulted. It was a flawed
blanket
statement and I dismissed it. It obviously bothered you as you have
brought
it up a few times in the thread.
Have nutritionists been duped by the food
industry? Yes, they have. Docs have been duped by the pharmaceutical
industry, too. It happens in alot of professions to some degree.
Yes,
it
can have a "How were we ever that dumb?" effect. We learn and we
expand
our view.
Studpidity comes of making excuses and having tunnel vision when
crtiticism
of invalid practices or beliefs sufaces.

So, I guess I am stupid. But at least when I wake up in the morning, I
will
still be stupid.

No, it was a generalized statement about how people react when confronted
about a wrong practice or belief. People learn and expand their views or
they make excuses and don't learn or expand their view. I even used
nutritionists and doctors in the example of having been duped.
I don't agree with all of your views, but I hardly think you are stupid.

You, on the other hand will still be narrow minded and
mean.

What can I say, therapy doesn't always work :-)

Sorry. I was rude. I believe it was either very late or very early when I
wrote that. I am in the middle of a 'road trip which involves long days and
no sleep.

I have to wonder if he understands what it takes to earn a license
in
the
health care professions

I do, on the other hand, believe that we deserve respect. It's
obvious you don't agree but we can just agree to disagree.

No, they don't "deserve" respect just because they can get a license, that
is just not enough. I generally "treat" everyone I meet with some level
of
respect until it becomes apparent respect is not warranted. Nail techs,
barbers, and roofers are state licensed, too. They don't automatically
"deserve" respect either, it doesn't come of having a license in one's
possession. One "earns" respect by their actions and words. A piece of
paper is not enough for many of us.

I don't believe
I ever said that it was harder to obtain credentials as as a lawyer or
an
engineer. Rather, I said that we worked hard for licensure and we work
hard
to keep it.

I have to wonder if he understands what it takes to earn a license
in
the
health care professions

No, you said "what it takes to earn a license in the health care
professions" My point was it is just as hard and sometimes harder to earn
a
degree for many other occupations. The license is a matter of taking a
state test after completing the degree. Most people pass it the first
time
around.

and what lengths we will go to protect it.

I believe one just has to provide reasonable and prudent care to keep
one's
license. And do continuing education and pay renewal fees. What
other
lengths are there?

Well, let's see. I have had numerous nurses in jeopardy of losing their
licenses because of erroneous patient complaints.

Numerous? Law suits filed or threatened? There is a real difference
here.

Lots and lots of frivolous law suits up until the point that the suits with
merit are not taken seriously.

Want an example? I had a
nurse in GA call me one time after the end of a very long day. She made
a
serious mistake regarding insulin.

Yes, too much insulin can kill someone.

She got in her car and was driving to
her next patient's house when she suddenly realized she had added far
too
much insulin to a bag of enteral feeding. She immediately called the
family
and told them to shut off the pump. she returned back to the patient's
home
and checked his blood sugar which was understandably low. The patient
was
treated in the ER and released several hours later.

So, she made a serious mistake and tried to correct it.

When the patient (a
chronic CHF patient class IV) died six months later, the family sued the
nurse for mal-practice. She stood to lose everything because she was
honest
about a mistake that she made and one that caused no long term damage to
the
patient.

She would have been more likely to be successfully sued for everything she
had if she had not attempted to correct such a grave mistake. Death is
not
exactly a good outcome for medication administration. Overdosing the
patient was not reasonable and prudent care.

Yes, and it is very difficult to prove a death related to insulin. Had she
not admitted her mistake, she likely would have never been caught. Her
concern wasn't lawsuits but patient care, thankfully.

The nutritionists I have worked with are faced with enormous
challenges.
snipped the many woes of nutritionists

Nutritionists demonized
butter and gave us hydrogenated vegetable oils a few years back. They
were
duped by the corn industry. One needs to think for oneself. Caveat
emptor.

I only know the few nutritionists I have worked with. The only thing I
can
tell you is that they are as genuine in their beliefs and as pure in
their
intentions as you could ever hope. The RD's who work at my level
believe
in
what they have been taught and haven't been duped by anyone!

Just because they believe it, doesn't make the information they dispense
any
more correct.

Should you
argue that the people making practice decisions were duped, I might pay
attention

So, what profession made the practice decisions for the nutritionists?

but you know nothing about the people who spend hours working with
patients.

Sure I do. I have friends with such jobs. We've got "medical
professionals" all over the neighborhood, too.
It is not a rare profession.

To be sure, they are paid a salary and have no financial
incentive to give poor information to patients.

Didn't say they did. Just said they got duped into giving some not so
good
advice a few years back and gave the example of substituting hydrogenated
vegetable oil for butter. Trans fat for saturated fat. We are better off
with the saturated.

But if you consider the science of nutrition (or most sciences for that
matter), they are very young and will continue to evolve as we learn more.
I personally find it amusing that some of the stuff my Mom and Grandma used
to preach is more true than some of the trendier data (eat meat or protein
with each meal, they used to preach - don't eat between meals and watch
those starches!) Most of the information disseminated is done so in good
faith although certainly there have been surprises - the sat fat thing, for
instance. I really think a lot of folks were surprised by that as we at
transfats with abandon in cute little margarine tubs!

It is something you can install yourself.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...l/-/0345409469


--
¤bicker¤

Thanks for the link. I have read a couple of his books but wasn't familiar
with that one. I guess it really couldn't be new being that he is no longer
actively writing (or anything else) but I really did appreciate Carl Sagan
as he made interesting and understanding some very complex ideas for me. I
put it aside for the next Amazon order to be placed when I get a dent on the
books that arrived last week.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than
to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
- Carl Sagan

People are, of course, welcome to place whatever irrelevant
limitations on their ability to enjoy something that they wish.

"Ignoramus3739" wrote in message
...
go to your lcoal library and read the book calle d"Food Politics".

i

And there's absolutely no bias in that book, huh?

Martha