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carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintainmuscles and lose fat?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 16th, 2005, 05:03 AM posted to sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
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Default carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintainmuscles and lose fat?

Hello,

I read about how insulin influences the metabolism in your body. I have
a question regarding food combinations when fasting. The situation is as
follows:

I eat meals where food is a mix of carb-protein-no fat (eg bread+beans,
bread+cottage cheese) OR a mix of protein-fat-no carbs (eg avocado +
makril + tomatoes). I eat 500-1000 calories less a day according to
average requirements + exercise (average requirement would be 2500-3000,
incl. exercise of 500cals per day).

The reason I am combining food in these ways is to prevent loosing
muscles. Is this a reasonable approach to lose fat before muscles?

thanks, Chris
  #2  
Old December 16th, 2005, 10:47 AM posted to sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
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Default carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintain muscles and lose fat?


"cguttman" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
u...
Hello,

I read about how insulin influences the metabolism in your body. I have a
question regarding food combinations when fasting. The situation is as
follows:

I eat meals where food is a mix of carb-protein-no fat (eg bread+beans,
bread+cottage cheese) OR a mix of protein-fat-no carbs (eg avocado +
makril + tomatoes). I eat 500-1000 calories less a day according to
average requirements + exercise (average requirement would be 2500-3000,
incl. exercise of 500cals per day).

The reason I am combining food in these ways is to prevent loosing
muscles. Is this a reasonable approach to lose fat before muscles?


It does not make sense to me since fat, protein and carbs have a synergistic
effect on each other when it comes to digestion/uptake. To prevent muscle
loss your main goal should be to a) keep gluconeogenesis low.
Gluconeogenesis sets in when blood glucose levels drop below a certain
treshhold.. the body then
starts to get glucose out of other sources, mainly liver glycogen and
glycogenic amino acids. b) keep training (but not necessarily
high-intensity). Loosing fat before muscle adds training at the right level
of intensity (ie heart rate/RQ/lactate generation) and lowering fat content
of the diet.


  #3  
Old December 16th, 2005, 04:21 PM posted to sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
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Default carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintain muscles and lose fat?


cguttman wrote:
The reason I am combining food in these ways is to prevent loosing
muscles. Is this a reasonable approach to lose fat before muscles?


Combining foods as such doesnt stop catabolism of muscle tissue. To
preserve muscle you need to support it with enough calories. Insulin
response packs fatcells when you overeat something (usually a high
processed carb - note: not all carbs are created equal).
To lose bodyfat (and reshape your body) you really need to be
exercising, both cardio and weights. Usually if you are new to
dieting/exercising can you lose bodyfat while gaining muscle, otherwise
its one or the other.


joanne

  #4  
Old December 16th, 2005, 09:51 PM posted to sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
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Default carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintainmuscles and lose fat?

Hi Joanne,


Combining foods as such doesnt stop catabolism of muscle tissue. To
preserve muscle you need to support it with enough calories. Insulin
response packs fatcells when you overeat something (usually a high
processed carb - note: not all carbs are created equal).


So, high insulin levels and fat will pack fatcells. That means that if
you eat carbs and fat, than your body is more likely to put on fat
before putting on muscle or losing fat.
In which case my suggestion of eating carbs-protein or protein and fat
makes sense. Is that correct?

To lose bodyfat (and reshape your body) you really need to be
exercising, both cardio and weights. Usually if you are new to
dieting/exercising can you lose bodyfat while gaining muscle, otherwise
its one or the other.


I am doing a lot of exercise, 2 hrs soccer, 1 hr running, or 3 hrs
Squash. My question was only regarding food combination.

Chris




joanne

  #5  
Old December 16th, 2005, 09:59 PM posted to sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
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Default carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintain muscles and lose fat?

cguttman wrote:

So, high insulin levels and fat will pack fatcells. That means that if
you eat carbs and fat, than your body is more likely to put on fat
before putting on muscle or losing fat.
In which case my suggestion of eating carbs-protein or protein and fat
makes sense. Is that correct?


Partially correct. The plans from Suzanne Sommers do this. A
meal either has carby foods or fatty foods but not both.

For the same total calories, a low-carb/medium-protein/high-fat plan
triggers less muscle loss than a high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat
plan. So if your only goal is to preserve lean staying low carb most
of the time works better.

But so long as you have sufficient protein intake the difference is
small. And it appears you do have sufficient protein intake.

  #6  
Old December 16th, 2005, 10:21 PM posted to sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
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Default carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintainmuscles and lose fat?

Hello Doug,

thanks for your response. Comments below...


Partially correct. The plans from Suzanne Sommers do this. A
meal either has carby foods or fatty foods but not both.


I dont know who Suzanne Sommers is.


For the same total calories, a low-carb/medium-protein/high-fat plan
triggers less muscle loss than a high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat
plan. So if your only goal is to preserve lean staying low carb most
of the time works better.


I am not sure what you mean? Staying low carb most of the time - this
would prevent an anabolic effect on muscle growth? Mhm...
I am doing a lot of exercise, weights and cardio. So, wouldnt it be
smart to eat carbs-protein combinations most of the time. At the moment,
I eat one meal a day that contains low-carb/medium-protein/high-fat plan
(usually first or second lunch, also has around 25% of dails calorie
intake and 90% of daily fat intake), and the remaining 4 meals are
high-carb/medium-protein/low-fat.


But so long as you have sufficient protein intake the difference is
small. And it appears you do have sufficient protein intake.


Thanks. Chris
  #7  
Old December 17th, 2005, 12:48 AM posted to sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
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Default carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintain muscles and lose fat?

NO.

You will ALWAYS lose muscle mass when you diet. There is no way to
toally prevent it.

Some ways to help reduce it a

1) Don't let your diet become a fast. Eat smaller, frequent meals, with
a low glycemic index. Goal here is to keep an even amount of insulin in
the bloodstream, for a longer time. Insulin helps bring in amino acids
that are necessary for muscles to maintain. But you have to balance
that with your need to keep insulin relatively low, while dieting. You
can't have high insulin levels and have a good diet. They are as
opposite as day and night.

2) Exercise. You will lose more muscle mass if you don't exercise while
dieting. Even moderate exercise is a good start. Some strength training
exercise should be included, ideally.

3) When you eat, try to balance out your carbs, your protein, and your
fats, every day, at least. Your goal is to give your body all the amino
acids, essential fatty acids, bulk, fiber, etc., that it needs, every
day. Cutting anything short on one day can NOT always be made up by
adding more on another day. (sometimes yes, sometimes, no).

I wouldn't worry about the muscle mass you lose while dieting. That
mass will return (although probably not all of it), and you don't need
a lot of muscle mass for many athletic events.

Take Lance Armstrong for one great example. He was a very good cyclist
before his cancer, but after his cancer, after losing a lot of muscle
mass (particularly in the shoulders and torso, which he never
regained), he was actually able to become a far better bicycle racer
than he ever was before. Especially in the mountains, where his
decrease in weight, helped him a lot.

Leaner muscle mass does not always mean less strength, and can enhance
performance in some events.

adak

  #8  
Old December 17th, 2005, 01:24 AM posted to sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
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Default carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintainmuscles and lose fat?

Hello,

Thanks. I am aware of all the three points that you mentioned, and they
do not really address my question. I comment briefly,

1) In general, I eat low GI food (exception: I eat high GI right after
exercise) to have a balanced insulin level in my blood. I believe though
that having a constant level of insulin could lead to insulin
resistance, thats why I eat one meal a day with few carbs.

2) As mentioned earlier, I do heaps of exercise.

3) I eat a balanced diet on a daily basis (~50% carbs, 30% protein, 20%
fat). The nutrition that I am eating are high quality, e.g. few
saturated/trans fats.

My question is if a certain combination of nutrition for certain meals
can help to reduce the loss of muscle mass while fasting.

You make too many assumptions about me: I am not bulky and I dont want
to become bulky, and I think the *right* amount of muscles can help a
great deal in certain sports.

Chris


adak wrote:
NO.

You will ALWAYS lose muscle mass when you diet. There is no way to
toally prevent it.

Some ways to help reduce it a

1) Don't let your diet become a fast. Eat smaller, frequent meals, with
a low glycemic index. Goal here is to keep an even amount of insulin in
the bloodstream, for a longer time. Insulin helps bring in amino acids
that are necessary for muscles to maintain. But you have to balance
that with your need to keep insulin relatively low, while dieting. You
can't have high insulin levels and have a good diet. They are as
opposite as day and night.

2) Exercise. You will lose more muscle mass if you don't exercise while
dieting. Even moderate exercise is a good start. Some strength training
exercise should be included, ideally.

3) When you eat, try to balance out your carbs, your protein, and your
fats, every day, at least. Your goal is to give your body all the amino
acids, essential fatty acids, bulk, fiber, etc., that it needs, every
day. Cutting anything short on one day can NOT always be made up by
adding more on another day. (sometimes yes, sometimes, no).

I wouldn't worry about the muscle mass you lose while dieting. That
mass will return (although probably not all of it), and you don't need
a lot of muscle mass for many athletic events.

Take Lance Armstrong for one great example. He was a very good cyclist
before his cancer, but after his cancer, after losing a lot of muscle
mass (particularly in the shoulders and torso, which he never
regained), he was actually able to become a far better bicycle racer
than he ever was before. Especially in the mountains, where his
decrease in weight, helped him a lot.

Leaner muscle mass does not always mean less strength, and can enhance
performance in some events.

adak

  #9  
Old December 17th, 2005, 06:34 AM posted to sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
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Default carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintain muscles and lose fat?


"adak" wrote in message
ups.com...
NO.

You will ALWAYS lose muscle mass when you diet. There is no way to
toally prevent it.


I may be coming in the middle of this but the statement is at best
vague. What do you mean by diet and how do you quantify this?

1) Don't let your diet become a fast. Eat smaller, frequent meals,
with
a low glycemic index. Goal here is to keep an even amount of insulin
in
the bloodstream, for a longer time. Insulin helps bring in amino acids
that are necessary for muscles to maintain. But you have to balance
that with your need to keep insulin relatively low, while dieting. You
can't have high insulin levels and have a good diet. They are as
opposite as day and night.


Define high/low insulin and how about those that are minumally effected.


2) Exercise. You will lose more muscle mass if you don't exercise
while
dieting. Even moderate exercise is a good start. Some strength
training
exercise should be included, ideally.


I'm a firm believer in exercise but I don't believe your opening
statement unless the diet is one of excessive caloric restriction,
almost starvation.

3) When you eat, try to balance out your carbs, your protein, and your
fats, every day, at least. Your goal is to give your body all the
amino
acids, essential fatty acids, bulk, fiber, etc., that it needs, every
day. Cutting anything short on one day can NOT always be made up by
adding more on another day. (sometimes yes, sometimes, no).


Eat balanced?

Take Lance Armstrong for one great example. He was a very good cyclist
before his cancer, but after his cancer, after losing a lot of muscle
mass (particularly in the shoulders and torso, which he never
regained), he was actually able to become a far better bicycle racer
than he ever was before. Especially in the mountains, where his
decrease in weight, helped him a lot.


He lost that weight/mass from chemo and it's effects. Until his cancer
his body stayed steady. We know after the fact that his "chemoed" off
mass made him a better cyclist with less weight as he regained his
strength. He could have bulked up to his original mass but chose not to.


Leaner muscle mass does not always mean less strength, and can enhance
performance in some events.


I still need to undertand your initial accertion about loosing muscle
mass while dieting.

-DF


  #10  
Old December 17th, 2005, 11:26 AM posted to sci.med.nutrition,alt.support.diet
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Default carb-protein or protein-fat food combination for meals to maintain muscles and lose fat?



"Doug Freese" wrote in message
...

"adak" wrote in message
ups.com...
NO.

You will ALWAYS lose muscle mass when you diet. There is no way to
toally prevent it.


I may be coming in the middle of this but the statement is at best vague.
What do you mean by diet and how do you quantify this?
...
I still need to undertand your initial accertion about loosing muscle mass
while dieting.


Doug, you understand as much as all of us what adak meant.

It's just that it's not correct...

The body needs about 1.25 gm/Kg of protein (and a reasonable supply of
essential
amino acid) and it will claim what it needs for repair and growth. With a
calorie
deficit diet, body fat will get consumed. Some DIETARY protein make get
converted to energy rather than maintenance and growth, but 1.25 is safe.
However a low activity regime means muscles loss by atrophy...

Chypho...


 




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