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#21
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ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins diet works
Aaron Baugher wrote ...
"We had a tough time getting our results published - it took 18 months altogether," she says. "The big journals really couldn't handle it. But we're not endorsing the diet: it's just our results." That's really, really sad. Any journal that refuses to publish research simply because it doesn't like the results should cease to exist. They aren't supposed to be in the business of suppressing knowledge. Interestingly, I've just finished reading the book "Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health" by Tom Lonsdale, a veterinarian. He's been having *exactly* the same sort of problems trying to convince the veterinary industry to take a long hard look at the prevalence of periodontal disease and question the appropriateness of commercial pet food that can be up to 50% grains as a complete and balanced diet for our companion carnivores. Now I could well get blown out of the water for raising this as it's an issue many people feel very passionately about, but I do it because Tom Lonsdale's continuous fight to get published in veterinary journals is exactly like this battle here, so I have a lot of sympathy for the man! ) Rachel (New Zealand) |
#22
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ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins diet works
Matti Narkia wrote:
Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:36:24 GMT in article m "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote: Valley Of Mu_n wrote: On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:25:31 -0500, Aaron Baugher wrote: Why should the AHA care what diet works, if their real concern is helping people with heart problems? The AMA is not only concerned with your heart. They do care about the short and long term effects of any diet on the whole of the person. How long will embarrassment over past mistakes trump doing the right thing now? The AHA doesn't consider it the right thing. The AHA is not alone. From Dr. Barry Sears (2/24/2000): "Finally, the longer you stay in ketosis, you begin to oxidize lipoproteins, so these are long-term consequences which begin to explain why high protein diets fail." Source: http://www.usda.gov/cnpp/Seminars/GND/Proceedings.txt That is your "evidence"?. Evidence that the AHA is not alone in their sentiments? The answer is "yes". Barry Sears' unsubstantiated oral statement over three years ago without any references whatsoever to back it up? Dr. Sears' statement was not contested by Dr. Atkins. You have to do "much" better than that. Not really. See below. Pertinent research: http://tinyurl.com/s8mp "This study demonstrates that incubation of AA with normal RBCs in phosphate-buffered saline (37 degrees C for 24 h) resulted in marked GSH depletion, oxidized glutathione accumulation, hydroxyl radical generation, and increased membrane lipid peroxidation." Note that these are *normal* red blood cells (RBCs) incubated under physiological conditions with AA (acetoacetate is a ketone that *is* elevated with ketogenic LC dieting) resulting in measurable toxic (bad) effects on the cells. Especially concerning is the generation of oxygen free radicals and peroxidation of membrane lipids. As ha already been shown, this applies only to type 1 diabetes patients as authors mention in their conclusion. This in vitro experiment being done under *normal* physiological conditions (no hyperglycemia) makes it applicable to isolated hyperketonemia (ie ketogenic LC dieting). Would suggest you read the entire paper. The full text of this study is at http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org.../48/9/1850.pdf Yes, it is. Would suggest you read it in its entirety especially paying attention to Figure 1. A quote from there gives one explanation why this study applies only to type 1 diabetes: "The blood concentration of ketone bodies may reach 10 mmol/l in diabetic patients with severe ketosis, versus 0.5 mmol/l in normal people (24,25)." Normal people are not having hyperketonemia from being on *ketogenic* LC diets. One would expect folks on *ketogenic* LC diets to have serum ketone concentrations somewhere between 0.5 micromol/ml and 10 micromol/ml. Now look again at Figure 1 paying close attention to MDA (marker of lipid peroxidation, which is the bad stuff). I would not want any of that increasing in my arteries. -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com |
#23
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Normal people are not having hyperketonemia from being on *ketogenic* LC diets.
One would expect folks on *ketogenic* LC diets to have serum ketone concentrations somewhere between 0.5 micromol/ml and 10 micromol/ml. Now look again at Figure 1 paying close attention to MDA (marker of lipid peroxidation, which is the bad stuff). I would not want any of that increasing in my arteries. Dear friend, I too worry about the known atherogenic properties of ketogenic diets. However, it is not simply an issue of ketogenesis vs glycolysis but rather a complex interaction between the two metabolic processes. To simplify the thousands of complex biologic interactions that can vary hourly into one or two basic science studies is missing the forest for the trees. The real question one should ask is "Do sustained ketogenic diets (not ketosis from diabetes) in individuals with glycolated hemoglobin (HgbA1-c) under 5.0 and without exposure to known risk factors for atherosclerosis suffer from accelerated atherosclerosis?". I have yet to see such a study in my 10 years of practice, and doubt there will be one because such a study would be extremely difficult to administer. People are complex organisms with complex social behaviors (which is why we are so fascinating!). pb |
#24
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Patrick Blanchard, M.D., A.B.F.P. wrote:
Normal people are not having hyperketonemia from being on *ketogenic* LC diets. One would expect folks on *ketogenic* LC diets to have serum ketone concentrations somewhere between 0.5 micromol/ml and 10 micromol/ml. Now look again at Figure 1 paying close attention to MDA (marker of lipid peroxidation, which is the bad stuff). I would not want any of that increasing in my arteries. Dear friend, I too worry about the known atherogenic properties of ketogenic diets. However, it is not simply an issue of ketogenesis vs glycolysis but rather a complex interaction between the two metabolic processes. To simplify the thousands of complex biologic interactions that can vary hourly into one or two basic science studies is missing the forest for the trees. The real question one should ask is "Do sustained ketogenic diets (not ketosis from diabetes) in individuals with glycolated hemoglobin (HgbA1-c) under 5.0 and without exposure to known risk factors for atherosclerosis suffer from accelerated atherosclerosis?". I have yet to see such a study in my 10 years of practice, and doubt there will be one because such a study would be extremely difficult to administer. People are complex organisms with complex social behaviors (which is why we are so fascinating!). pb But shouldn't it be possible to run a computer simulation of a ketogenic diet in the context of the average normal body chemistry of an overweight person? Such a simulation should reveal whether the diet actually works chemically to cause weight loss, without regard to the possible long term problems. martin |
#26
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:32:10 -0500, Ron Ritzman
wrote: On 27 Oct 2003 04:12:22 -0800, (Patrick Blanchard, M.D., A.B.F.P.) wrote: The real question one should ask is "Do sustained ketogenic diets (not ketosis from diabetes) in individuals with glycolated hemoglobin (HgbA1-c) under 5.0 and without exposure to known risk factors for atherosclerosis suffer from accelerated atherosclerosis?". I have yet to see such a study in my 10 years of practice, and doubt there will be one because such a study would be extremely difficult to administer. From what I have seen posted, the jury is still out but I understand Dr. Chung's position on this. Even though he uses terms such as "studies nay suggest" and "there is reason to *believe*" when talking about diet induced ketosis, he believes there are enough unknowns and question marks to say that it's safer for those who are overweight to simply "eat less" of the foods you are eating right now then roll the dice with ketosis. (his two pound diet approach covers the "simply") Still, it is refreshing to see this issue being debated with published studies and people who appear to have some level of clue rather then Atkids regurgitating what their favorite diet book authors say. Yeah, but there are unknowns in everything. I have been following a low carb dieat almost exclusively since the beginning of this year, and intermittently for a year or so before then. I've lowered my weight about 50 pounds, increased my HDL, decreased my LDL, and decreased my triglycerides. The problem is that no one has taken the time to study low carb diets because they go against the party line. -- Bob M in CT Remove 'x.' to reply |
#27
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:32:10 -0500, Ron Ritzman
wrote: From what I have seen posted, the jury is still out but I understand Dr. Chung's position on this. Even though he uses terms such as "studies nay suggest" and "there is reason to *believe*" when talking about diet induced ketosis, he believes there are enough unknowns and question marks to say that it's safer for those who are overweight to simply "eat less" of the foods you are eating right now then roll the dice with ketosis. (his two pound diet approach covers the "simply") Chung's position on this is firmer than that. He has stated that he would rather someone be overfat than on Atkins. This strongly hints at more than "roll the dice" with ketosis. I would suggest it would follow that ketosis, in the 2PDiet context, be avoided entirely. Now, this is my interpretation of Chung and not Mu speaking for Chung. How overfat one can be before even Atkins might be appropriate, I do not know. Maybe it would take morbid obesity, maybe that's not overfat enough. Still, it is refreshing to see this issue being debated with published studies and people who appear to have some level of clue rather then Atkids regurgitating what their favorite diet book authors say. On ASDLC and SMC? Really? I never noticed that. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030829.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
#28
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:52:57 GMT, Bob M wrote:
The problem is that no one has taken the time to study low carb diets because they go against the party line. If there is a "party", then there are those who are not part of the "party". Why have they not done the research then? http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030829.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
#29
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Mineral Mu_n wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:52:57 GMT, Bob M wrote: The problem is that no one has taken the time to study low carb diets because they go against the party line. If there is a "party", then there are those who are not part of the "party". Why have they not done the research then? I think it is too hard. I suspect that the main effect of the diet is the reduction in hunger and craving, so that most of thr weight loss is actually due to eating less. You would have to keep people locked in a "Big Brother" kind of environment so that you could rigidly control what they eat and prevent them from exercising. It isn't really feasible, which is why I think a computer simulation of the entire chemistry is the only way. That would show that the diet would work or not in its pure form. martin |
#30
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
If there is a "party", then there are those who are not part of the "party". Why have they not done the research then? On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:44:39 +0100, "M.W.Smith" wrote: I think it is too hard. I suspect that the main effect of the diet is the reduction in hunger and craving, so that most of thr weight loss is actually due to eating less. You would have to keep people locked in a "Big Brother" kind of environment so that you could rigidly control what they eat and prevent them from exercising. It isn't really feasible, which is why I think a computer simulation of the entire chemistry is the only way. That would show that the diet would work or not in its pure form. I think the simulation is an interesting tool indeed. I also concur with your ideas about the difficulties of testing diets. A control group would be hard to control, wouldn't they? This holds true for the 2PDiet, Atkins, Ornish or whatever. The only place we might differ is in studying the pathological effects of, say, ketosis over a term. Not being a researcher, I am not at all certain if this is doable but I am told, by researchers, it is. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
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