Frankenfoods -article

"At the local supermarket, a dozen eggs are 79 cents. a dozen "organic"

eggs are $2.79. I find it difficult to believe that it's worth paying
three and a half times as much for a virtually identical product with
the "organic" label slapped on it. "


That reminds me of a couple of great stories that show how naive people
can be. I live in an area of NJ where chicken farming was very common
in the post WWII era. A friend I knew in grade school lived on a
chicken farm that produced eggs. They sold eggs retail right at the
farm. Well, over time, the NJ farmers were driven extinct by large
farms down south that had lower costs for fuel, labor, energy, etc.
So, guess what my friend's family did? They got rid of their chickens
and started buying eggs wholesale from down south. Of course, they
never told anyone about it. In fact, they even kept the "Don't blow
horn, it will scare the chickens" sign, and the "Fresh local eggs" sign
at their farm. My friend even brought eggs to high school and sold
them to the teachers. They thought they were getting nice, fresh,
better, eggs. In fact, they were getting the same thing they could
have bought at the supermarket. In fact, it might even be worse, as at
least supermarket eggs are maintained at the proper temp, have dates on
them and are sold quickly. This same "farm" operation plowed an acre
or two of land to get farmland assessment for taxes and crop subsidies.

Now for the second story. One day as a kid, I was out exploring in the
woods with a friend. We were on the other side of a stream from
another local egg producer. We saw a couple of guys approaching on the
farm side of the stream, so we hid an watched. The guys had feed bags
and were throwing them in the stream. At first, we couldn't figure
out what was going on. After they left, we looked down stream and it
became obvious. There were some older bags caught in debris and ripped
open. Inside were dead chickens! They were using the stream to
dispose of their dead chickens.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all small farmers do these
things. Only that doing illegal or unsafe things is not confined to
large operations. In fact, I doubt Frank Perdu throws his dead
chickens in the river. You can find some people that are going to do
bad things anywhere. And trusting people just because they show up at
a farmer's market or are a local farmer, doesn't necessarily mean much.

Chris Smolinski wrote in message
...

At the local supermarket, a dozen eggs are 79 cents. a dozen
"organic"
eggs are $2.79. I find it difficult to believe that it's worth
paying
three and a half times as much for a virtually identical product
with
the "organic" label slapped on it.

I don't know what "organic" means when it comes to eggs. Perhaps the
chicken was fed with organically grown grains? That doesn't matter too
much to me. But I would pay a premium for eggs from a source where the
chickens had sufficient living space with free access to a pleasant
outdoor environment most of the time, were not kept in too-small
cages, did not have their beaks clipped, were not routinely drugged on
antibiotics, etc. I have personally seen the difference in living
conditions for local dairy cows and cows in a dairy co-op and
regularly pay a small premium for cheese from the better treated cows.

Matthew

In fact, I doubt Frank Perdu throws his dead
chickens in the river.

Especially since Perdue died in April.

wrote:
It's interesting how people come to all kinds of justifications in
their own minds. Like the local farmer must not have used pesticide,
while foods marked as organic from a large company probably do.

that's not what i said. i said i don't trust them as much as i do a
local, cooperative farming community because they are not wholly
committed to the 'principles' of organic farming. in this case it is
not as much about my personal health as for a personal statement. for
me, part of my choice is based in a form of protest. i would rather
support local farmers who profess to practice sustainability (with the
certification) than a large conglomerate who uses one hand for
sustainability and one hand for factory-farming.


How do
you know what the local farmer does? Do you watch him? Do you test
his soil?

The simple fact is that responsible use of chemicals is what has put
agriculture where it is today and fed the world.

agriculture 'where it is today' is more destructive and wasteful than
it us sustaining.

Without chemicals, a
lot more people in the world would be starving. And even here in the
US, if we all paid 3X for food, that would be a tragic mistake. That
money could make a far bigger improvement in life if it were
allocated
to other area, like health care or education. And if the vegetables
we're all eating are soooo bad and unhealthy, it's quite remarkable
that the average life expectancy at the beginning of the last century
was around 50, while today it's 76.

Someday, when you leave academia for the real world, you'll learn
that
in life there are tradeoffs.

tradeoff: paying more money to support organic and sustainable farming,
as well as cruelty-free farming, despite the chances that, as you said
above, farmers and companies are being dishonest.


Nothing is perfect. Using vegetables
from the local supermarket is one of the many things that almost all
of
us do everyday that don't entail any significant risk.

you don't really know whether it's been a risk to anyone. there are
lots of unexplainable illnesses and allergies.


BTW, what does any of this have to do with low carb?

it's a crossposted thread to alt.support.diet.

i don't see why it matters so much to you that i choose to support
local organic farmers in lieu of huge comglomerates. it's the same
reason i shop at salvation army instead of walmart, or ride a bicycle
when possible to save gas. if you don't want to make a contribution in
this way, then that's fine for you, but i think it's interesting how
critical you are of someone who is merely trying to be less wasteful.
and, in the case of animal cruelty, would prefer to buy from the farmer
who claims to raise his animals in a natural and humane manner. is he
lying? it's possible, though improbable, but i'd rather give him the
benefit of the doubt than support the others who blatantly do it.

Chris Smolinski wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Cubit wrote:
I tend to define Frankenfoods to include more than the
genetically
modified
Frankenfoods, which this article is about.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/health/0...A03-140944.htm


"Nobody's been able to prove that anyone's even gotten the sniffles
from biotechnology," Childs said.

silly fda, that's not the point. you're supposed to prove it
*doesn't*
cause harm, not that no harm has *already* been caused. you're not
supposed to say, "no one has proven this unsafe." you're supposed
to
day, "this *has been proven* safe."

Ahh... the precautionary principle run amok. I certainly hope that
40,000 years ago, Ogg did all the decades of necessary testing before
he
first stuck a piece of meat in a fire and cooked it.

what is the point of having an FDA if their idea of regulating products
is to say, 'it hasn't hurt anyone yet'?


At the local supermarket, a dozen eggs are 79 cents. a dozen
"organic"
eggs are $2.79. I find it difficult to believe that it's worth paying

three and a half times as much for a virtually identical product with

the "organic" label slapped on it.


it's worth it for me if the label also claims to be cruelty-free. i'm
paying for 1) the natural, unadulterated state of the product and 2)
the fact that the animals have not been abused or mistreated. and the
product is not 'identical', not even in taste.



--
---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

look up the definition for "integrity" before you cite me for using the
word erroneously.

wrote:
"i find that their produce, and even the way they do business, has so
much more integrity
than buying it from a big-chain-bulk-discounter. "

Wow, I never even knew produce could have integrity! You mean the
vegetables don't lie, cheat, or steal? Personally, I will sometimes
buy produce at a farmer's market because it's generally fresher.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all small farmers do these
things. Only that doing illegal or unsafe things is not confined to
large operations. In fact, I doubt Frank Perdu throws his dead
chickens in the river. You can find some people that are going to do
bad things anywhere. And trusting people just because they show up at
a farmer's market or are a local farmer, doesn't necessarily mean much.



There's a big dust up going on between Arkansas and Oklahoma about river
pollution from chicken farming (Tyson.)

--
No Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes

wrote in message
oups.com...
It's interesting how people come to all kinds of justifications in
their own minds. Like the local farmer must not have used pesticide,
while foods marked as organic from a large company probably do. How do
you know what the local farmer does? Do you watch him? Do you test
his soil?

Don't you guys have any enforced standards? In the UK, organic farmers
regularly get their soil tested, to maintain their organic status. No
status, no sticker on the product, no price premium.

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/4.5/6 Weight 95/77/72Kg
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004

"Ignoramus20928" wrote in message
...
As far as I understand, trader4 talked about a misconception that
local farmers are somehow better than non-local farmers. trader4 did
not talk about standards of organic food.

OK. I prefer to buy from my local farmers for crops in season, to save
environmental shipping costs. I doubt they're more ethical, or whatever,
than people a few miles away - but I get to walk through their fields every
day, and I see lots of insects, birds and bunnies thriving. Out of season, I
buy foods that I need from wherever, with a few exceptions - I try not to
buy anything from Zimbabwe, for instance. If organic is important, I try to
grow it myself so I buy less. The tomatoes and strawberries look good this
year; something is eating my French beans to ribbons, and late frosts have
zapped one of my lettuce pots.

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/4.5/6 Weight 95/77/72Kg
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004

What matters to me is that you spouted a lot of nonsense, telling
people they should be worried about eating spinach, strawberries, milk
from cows, etc, unless it's organic. And that you malign an
agricultural industry that has fed billions of people safely and
economically. You can go ahead and eat your organic foods from a
cooperative, if that makes you feel better. But don't try to scare the
rest of us.

And you still apparently don't realize that without the use of
chemicals, there would be a lot less food in the world, with a lot more
people starving. Maybe that's a trade off you're willing to make, but
most of us would not. And if everyone paid 3X for produce, a lot of
money would be going to inefficient farming on the faulty notion that
it's going to improve our lives. That money could surely do far more
good going into areas with a sure return, like healthcare, education,
etc. People like you would rather get caught up in some emotional,
narrow interest, instead of looking at the big picture.