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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'
On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 09:48:33 -0400, Walter Bushell
wrote: [...] Despite the scientific evidence that 75% of patients with CAD had LDL-cholesterol levels *below* the current guidelines of the National Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP) of 130 milligrams (50% had LDL-cholesterol levels below 100 milligrams!). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract And why do most people eat vegetarian and vegan diets in the first place? Because they think fat and cholesterol (per se) are bad for them, to avoid CAD, etc. Do you have any sources sugggesting this is why most people are vegetarian/vegan? Not really. It's just a personal hunch based on knowing many vegetarians/vegans. Is your sample sized sufficiently random and large enough? You're interested in nutrition so perhaps that produces sampling errors. It's entirely possible, Walter. But I know (and have known) an awful lot of vegetarians and vegans. And politics, etc., aside, one of the first things a vegetarian or vegan will usually say to me when they find out that I eat lots of meat is: "Aren't you worried about having a heart attack?" And because I'm not a proselytizer, I don't even bother trying to convince them to eat meat, etc., I just make it clear to them that I do, and will continue to do so. If they do ask me why, I point out the science supporting *my* decision. Besides the so-called ethical, religious or political reasons for not wanting to eat animal flesh, eggs, fish, milk, shellfish, cheese, etc., what other reason could there be to want to deprive oneself of some the most nutritious and tasty foods on the planet? Foods that human beings have evolved to eat for millions of years. There friends are vegans and they want to maintain and deepen friendships? Maybe. But I don't have any friends that would want me to deprive myself of tasty and nutritious foods. In other words, I don't have any dumb, fascist friends. They are self destructive? Not intentionally, anyway. They have an aversion to eating in general? If that were true, they'd probably eat only a little bit of everything, and wouldn't deprive themselves of some of the tastiest and most nutritious kinds of food. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'
Walter Bushell wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote: I have no wish to push anyone who is a vegetarian for religious, moral or political reasons to stop. Some reasons are worth the slightly lower health. And people who practice for those reasons tend to follow traditional systems that are well designed so they don't have health impacts. Rather like the few Inuits who still live the traditional hunting lifestyle on the ice are very healthy even though they eat nothing but (very broadly defined) meat for months on end. But ah, vegans in England ran into problems with B12, because the grains in England did not contain as many insects as in India. A little human dung (or from other animals) in the vegetables also helps. It's the "traditional systems are well designed" bit. Well evolved actually. Modern people who suddenly decided to go vegan did not have the benefit of centuries of tradition that give time for details to evolve to make a diet healthy. |
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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care aftersuffering heart attack'
On 2012-07-25, Dogman wrote:
On 25 Jul 2012 00:18:29 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad wrote: [...] Despite the scientific evidence that 75% of patients with CAD had LDL-cholesterol levels *below* the current guidelines of the National Cholesterol Education Program (NCEP) of 130 milligrams (50% had LDL-cholesterol levels below 100 milligrams!). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract And why do most people eat vegetarian and vegan diets in the first place? Because they think fat and cholesterol (per se) are bad for them, to avoid CAD, etc. Do you have any sources sugggesting this is why most people are vegetarian/vegan? Not really. It's just a personal hunch based on knowing many vegetarians/vegans. Besides the so-called ethical, religious or political reasons for not wanting to eat animal flesh, eggs, fish, milk, shellfish, cheese, etc., what other reason could there be to want to deprive oneself of some the most nutritious and tasty foods on the planet? Foods that human beings have evolved to eat for millions of years. For me, I find my digestion and energy levels are much better when not eating meat. I eat eggs and cheeses though. |
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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'
On 27 Jul 2012 01:13:54 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad
wrote: [...] Besides the so-called ethical, religious or political reasons for not wanting to eat animal flesh, eggs, fish, milk, shellfish, cheese, etc., what other reason could there be to want to deprive oneself of some the most nutritious and tasty foods on the planet? Foods that human beings have evolved to eat for millions of years. For me, I find my digestion and energy levels are much better when not eating meat. I eat eggs and cheeses though. So...you're a vegetarian? That's okay, "different strokes for different folks," right? On the other hand, I know a lot of vegetarians and vegans who, without the benefit of lots of vitamins & supplements, have the same problems you describe. But I like to get my nutrition from the foods I eat, if possible, and if you've ever seen the nutritional profile of just a small portion of, say, grass-fed beef liver, it's pretty easy to do that by adding meat to your diet. Humans have evolved to eat animal flesh for millions of years, so it's unlikely that your digestion or energy problems are totally related to eating meat per se, but without knowing exactly what you *do* eat, what your lifestyle is, etc., it's hard to suggest what might be at fault. Perhaps your body just needs to eat more meat, and more often, before your body can adjust to the change? But it's just a guess. As a fat-adapted, low-carb, paleo eater, I have energy to spare and never have a problem with digestion. Nor does anyone I know who eats in a similar fashion. I also have zero ethical, religious, or political compunctions from eating animal flesh, so maybe that helps me some, too. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care aftersuffering heart attack'
On 2012-07-27, Dogman wrote:
On 27 Jul 2012 01:13:54 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad wrote: [...] Besides the so-called ethical, religious or political reasons for not wanting to eat animal flesh, eggs, fish, milk, shellfish, cheese, etc., what other reason could there be to want to deprive oneself of some the most nutritious and tasty foods on the planet? Foods that human beings have evolved to eat for millions of years. For me, I find my digestion and energy levels are much better when not eating meat. I eat eggs and cheeses though. So...you're a vegetarian? That's okay, "different strokes for different folks," right? On the other hand, I know a lot of vegetarians and vegans who, without the benefit of lots of vitamins & supplements, have the same problems you describe. But I like to get my nutrition from the foods I eat, if possible, and if you've ever seen the nutritional profile of just a small portion of, say, grass-fed beef liver, it's pretty easy to do that by adding meat to your diet. Humans have evolved to eat animal flesh for millions of years, so it's unlikely that your digestion or energy problems are totally related to eating meat per se, but without knowing exactly what you *do* eat, what your lifestyle is, etc., it's hard to suggest what might be at fault. Perhaps your body just needs to eat more meat, and more often, before your body can adjust to the change? But it's just a guess. As a fat-adapted, low-carb, paleo eater, I have energy to spare and never have a problem with digestion. Nor does anyone I know who eats in a similar fashion. I also have zero ethical, religious, or political compunctions from eating animal flesh, so maybe that helps me some, too. I used to eat a ton of meat. Tons of it with every meal. In those times, I would always have slow digestion and general indigiestion. Eventually I moved from red meat and pork mainly to turkey and still had the same issue. I then became a vegetarian and the issues with energy levels and digestion went away. After a few years, I went back to eating meatand the same problems returned. Eventually, I just ended up going vegetarian and that was pretty much that. In those times, everything else in my life was fairly static down to when I went to sleep and woke up. At this point my energy levels are such that I am able to lift heavy 3 days a week and put out 6 hours and 40 minutes of aerobic exercises per week with no issues. My diet consists of your usual vegetarian fare (no soy, no processed foods) and my supplements are 2 grams of fish oil, 2 grams of CLA and B-Complex every day. I have no problem with people who do eat meat. To each their own. It's just not my choice due to aforementioned reasons. |
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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'
On 27 Jul 2012 19:23:24 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad
wrote: [...] As a fat-adapted, low-carb, paleo eater, I have energy to spare and never have a problem with digestion. Nor does anyone I know who eats in a similar fashion. I also have zero ethical, religious, or political compunctions from eating animal flesh, so maybe that helps me some, too. I used to eat a ton of meat. Tons of it with every meal. Interesting to me is the fact that I no longer require "tons" of meat with my meals, provided I get enough FAT. I never stuff myself. And I only eat when I'm hungry, not because it's "time" to eat. In those times, I would always have slow digestion and general indigiestion. Meat and fat take longer to digest; that's not a bug, it's a feature. It allows enzymes in your gut longer to work their magic, i.e., get the most nutrition out of the sources. Indigestion is something else altogether. It can be caused by a multitude of things. Things like eating grains, drinking, eating too much of anything, eating too fast,IBS, medications, etc. But again, it's unlikely due to the meat, unless you're *really* piling it on. Eventually I moved from red meat and pork mainly to turkey and still had the same issue. I have a hunch that your meals were too large, and eaten too often. I then became a vegetarian and the issues with energy levels and digestion went away. After a few years, I went back to eating meatand the same problems returned. Eventually, I just ended up going vegetarian and that was pretty much that. In those times, everything else in my life was fairly static down to when I went to sleep and woke up. I'm not trying to convince you, one way or the other, but you may want to gradually begin to eat more meat, but don't eat "tons" of it. See how that works out for you. At this point my energy levels are such that I am able to lift heavy 3 days a week and put out 6 hours and 40 minutes of aerobic exercises per week with no issues. Yeah, I used to work out that much (and more), but almost 7 hours of aerobic exercise per week is over-doing it, in my opinion, and may be adding unnecessary stress (systemic inflammation) to your body's systems. Of course, that depends on what your objectives are (training for a sport, competition, etc.), but for general health and fitness, that's way too much. "Chronic cardio" is bad for your health: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/chron...#axzz21qQTwH8B [...] I have no problem with people who do eat meat. To each their own. It's just not my choice due to aforementioned reasons. You bet, it's your choice. But again, it doesn't make sense to me to deprive yourself of the tastiest and most nutritious foods on the planet unless you absolutely have to. And I don't think you have to, provided you do a bit more experimenting. E.g., add a *small* amount of meat to one meal per day, then see how that goes. If it goes well, add a small amount of meat to two meals per day. And so on. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care aftersuffering heart attack'
On 2012-07-27, Dogman wrote:
On 27 Jul 2012 19:23:24 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad wrote: [...] As a fat-adapted, low-carb, paleo eater, I have energy to spare and never have a problem with digestion. Nor does anyone I know who eats in a similar fashion. I also have zero ethical, religious, or political compunctions from eating animal flesh, so maybe that helps me some, too. I used to eat a ton of meat. Tons of it with every meal. Interesting to me is the fact that I no longer require "tons" of meat with my meals, provided I get enough FAT. I never stuff myself. And I only eat when I'm hungry, not because it's "time" to eat. I definitely didn't require it. I was a pretty fat dude and was just eating tons of food and tons of meat went along with that. In those times, I would always have slow digestion and general indigiestion. Meat and fat take longer to digest; that's not a bug, it's a feature. It allows enzymes in your gut longer to work their magic, i.e., get the most nutrition out of the sources. In my case it was long digestion along with light constipation, regardless of how much fiber I would ingest. Indigestion is something else altogether. It can be caused by a multitude of things. Things like eating grains, drinking, eating too much of anything, eating too fast,IBS, medications, etc. That's true. But if the only vector I've eliminated from my diet is meat and all else is/was static and I almost immediately felt better, it leads me to believe it was the meat. But again, it's unlikely due to the meat, unless you're *really* piling it on. I was definitely piling it on the first time, but not so much the second time. The second time was having meat mainly in things like salad or on the side during a meal. Eventually I moved from red meat and pork mainly to turkey and still had the same issue. I have a hunch that your meals were too large, and eaten too often. They were large, but not eaten very often and this is only valid during the first phase of my life where I ate meat (20-something years) I then became a vegetarian and the issues with energy levels and digestion went away. After a few years, I went back to eating meatand the same problems returned. Eventually, I just ended up going vegetarian and that was pretty much that. In those times, everything else in my life was fairly static down to when I went to sleep and woke up. I'm not trying to convince you, one way or the other, but you may want to gradually begin to eat more meat, but don't eat "tons" of it. See how that works out for you. At this point, I honestly have no pull towards it. If I had some sort of desire to eat it again, I would consider it but right now and for the last few years, not so much. At this point my energy levels are such that I am able to lift heavy 3 days a week and put out 6 hours and 40 minutes of aerobic exercises per week with no issues. Yeah, I used to work out that much (and more), but almost 7 hours of aerobic exercise per week is over-doing it, in my opinion, and may be adding unnecessary stress (systemic inflammation) to your body's systems. Of course, that depends on what your objectives are (training for a sport, competition, etc.), but for general health and fitness, that's way too much. "Chronic cardio" is bad for your health: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/chron...#axzz21qQTwH8B I totally agree that I am probably overdoing it. I can't argue with you there. If I feel any pain in my joints or muscles from doing it, I definitely scale it back a bit but for it's been going pretty well ths far. I've had full physicals including blood and urine work done recently with no issues. All of my numbers were spot on so I'm not too worried though I do admit I'm probably not doing myself many favors with that much aerobics. I think I might be addicted to it, to be honest. [...] I have no problem with people who do eat meat. To each their own. It's just not my choice due to aforementioned reasons. You bet, it's your choice. But again, it doesn't make sense to me to deprive yourself of the tastiest and most nutritious foods on the planet unless you absolutely have to. And I don't think you have to, provided you do a bit more experimenting. E.g., add a *small* amount of meat to one meal per day, then see how that goes. If it goes well, add a small amount of meat to two meals per day. And so on. I just don't feel like I'm depriving myself of anything. I am able to live completely free of it and have no desire either in taste or nutritionally to eat it, so why bother? If I was doing it for the ethical aspect of it, I'd probably put up more of an argument here but I'm not. I mean, it's great that I'm not contributing to industrialized slaughter of animals but that's not why I don't do it |
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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'
On 27 Jul 2012 21:50:36 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad
wrote: [...] I just don't feel like I'm depriving myself of anything. I am able to live completely free of it and have no desire either in taste or nutritionally to eat it, so why bother? Hey, if that's what it all boils down to for you, there's no reason to continue the discussion, right? But I do have to wonder why you're posting to a LOW-carb newsgroup? I mean, it's great that I'm not contributing to industrialized slaughter of animals but that's not why I don't do it Think again. Ever lived on a farm? Try walking behind the combine for a while, during the harvest season. Trust me, you'll see more "industrialized slaughter of animals" than you can shake a stick at. But good luck with whatever you decide! -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care aftersuffering heart attack'
On Jul 27, 6:11*pm, Dogman wrote:
On 27 Jul 2012 21:50:36 GMT, Ivan The Not-So-Bad wrote: [...] I just don't feel like I'm depriving myself of anything. I am able to live completely free of it and have no desire either in taste or nutritionally to eat it, so why bother? Hey, if that's what it all boils down to for you, there's no reason to continue the discussion, right? But I do have to wonder why you're posting to a LOW-carb newsgroup? This coming from the guy who makes OT post after post about all kinds of crap that has nothing whatever to do with LC. Go figure. |
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Vegetarian star Michael Clarke Duncan 'in intensive care after suffering heart attack'
On Sat, 28 Jul 2012 05:47:02 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: [...] But I do have to wonder why you're posting to a LOW-carb newsgroup? This coming from the guy who makes OT post after post about all kinds of crap that has nothing whatever to do with LC. Go figure. The fact that you can't even figure out what those other posts have to do with low-carb eating is yet further proof that you are perhaps the dumbest, most scientifically illiterate person on the planet. You are to scientific literacy what fish are to bicycles. Asshole. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
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