Guys that workout in here pls

Liam - good that you are not trying to do low-fat and low-carb. That usually
doesn't work well, or work for long. You also might want to listen to Jimmie
Moore's interview with Eric Morrison. It's interesting to hear from a
trainer who uses and endorses a reduced-carb diet, as so many do not. I
think you might like this. This is the general URL for his podcast. You'll
need to page down (and eventually go to the archives) to find the Eric
Morrison interview.

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/

I'm sorry if I came off as condescending or harsh. I maybe was being a bit
condescending, I'll admit. The standard on this ng has always been pretty
high in terms of expecting newcomers to have already done a fair amount of
homework.

The RTFB comment was kind of a nostalgic reminiscence directed more at the
oldies who come here... I think we all remember when this was one of the few
places on the net to discuss LC, and there would often be upwards of
hundreds to a thousand posts a day (!). It truly was not directed at you.

Liam I hope you stick around. The people remaining her have years and years
of experience at LC'ing. You'll get some of the best, most imformed
information on the internet. You probably need to work on developing a
little thicker skin... usenet is almost by definition a little wild and
wooly. But as far as I'm concerned you're quite welcome here.

Hannah

"Liam T." wrote

The fat is about 107 grams a day mostly from xtra v olive oil (the
diet allows all the olive oil you want)


Thanks, I'm going to try to do my weights first and do a little
cardio afterwards and gradually increase , hopefully by then I will
getting more carbs and I'll be a little more used to it.

"Liam T." wrote:

Induction is 2 weeks ...

My doctor often stretches the induction (its a metabolic diet) so
indeed I'm following the instructions and reading the book.

You understand that's in direct conflict with intensity of
exercise, right? There are reasons for staying at 20 for
longer than 14 days but none of those reasons center
around either loss rates or exercise intensity. But it is
your choice to have directions that interfere with exercise
intensity. Shrug, work on endurance on that treadmill for
the nonce.

Any of the metabolic reasons tend to work just as well
on OWL as on Induction. The reason is ketonuria. As
long as you're in ketonuria your body is burning fat as
its primary fuel plus it's burning fat fast enough to
generate not just ketones (ketosis does this but can
be hard to detect) but ketones at a high enough level
to show in the urine. Once in ketonuria it's unusual for
further carb reduction to make metabolic differences.
Fat can be burned slowly into acetyl-CoA without
ketones, quickly with ketones that are hard to detect,
very quickly with ketones enough to show in the urine.
Ketonuria is about a subtle difference between that
quickly and very quickly, but it happens to be a
distinction that's easy to test.

Remember that OWL starts with a march of weekly
increases in carb quota until you fall out of ketonuria
(CCLL being 5-10 below that point to be just barely in
ketonuria to avoid metabolic defenses against low carb
to develop) then a bit low to pop back into ketonuria
then cruise at CCLL in ketonuria. If the goal of your
doc's plan is to be in ketonuria then he or she is the
one that needs to read the book. It's disgusting how
few doctors have a clue about the 4 phases of Atkins,
even the ones that are pro low carb.

Okay. *And grams or calories of fat? *All I can guess
from your description is not enough.

The fat is about 107 grams a day mostly from xtra v olive oil (the
diet allows all the olive oil you want)

Very cool. If you work the carb and protein numbers
then fill with fat to reach a reasonable total calories
it generally comes out 3 digits for the gram number.
It doesn't get much press but when you work the
numers for yourself nearly everyone comes out to 3
digit fat grams.

I don't accept that fat grams from olive oil beat fat grams
from animal sources but that's a topic about types of
fatty acid that's its own entire thread. Still, I have read
at least one study that said a gram for gram or calorie
for calorie substitution replacing saturated fats with
polyunsaturated fats does give better loss rates. So
there doesn't seem to be a down side to doing it that
way other than extra effort.

Are you losing muscle?

Nope. *High fat low carb ensures that.

Thanks, I'm going to try to do my weights first and *do a little
cardio afterwards and gradually increase , hopefully by then I will
getting more carbs and I'll be a little more used to it.

Slow but sure wins the race. Build up and see how the
endurance does a gradual build up past your pre-start
level. Once at closer to 50 carb grams see how your
peak weights aren't any different that your pre-start
levels.

. You also might want to listen to Jimmie Moore's interview with
Eric Morrison. It's interesting to hear from a
trainer who uses and endorses a reduced-carb diet, as so many do not. I
think you might like this. This is the general URL for his podcast. You'll
need to page down (and eventually go to the archives) to find the Eric
Morrison interview.

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/

Thanks for this link, I found the interview interesting, from what I
understood he has a "carbo cheat day" which I guess can be
contoversial for many into low carbs.
I heard about it before with either the "ketogenic diet" of Lyle
McDonald or Body Opus from Dan Duchaine. You go low carb during the
week and then load carbs on the weekend, then do the hardest workout
on Mondays....
Apparently Eric Morrison is in my neck of the woods...so I might look
him up.


I'm sorry if I came off as condescending or harsh. I maybe was being a bit
condescending, I'll admit. The standard on this ng has always been pretty
high in terms of expecting newcomers to have already done a fair amount of
homework.

I respect that you say this, I appreciate it.


The RTFB comment was kind of a nostalgic reminiscence directed more at the
oldies who come here... I think we all remember when this was one of the few
places on the net to discuss LC, and there would often be upwards of
hundreds to a thousand posts a day (!). It truly was not directed at you.

Sorry for this misunderstanding....(I'm blaming the induction


Liam I hope you stick around. The people remaining her have years and years
of experience at LC'ing. . But as far as I'm concerned you're quite welcome here.

Thank you kindly, I'm scrambling like crazy to get the maximum info
that is out there....my personal Doc was about to fire me unless I was
going to start taking blood pressure pills, which I really don't want
to take, family ,stress etc
Fortuntely with in 4 days of starting the diet my BP dropped to normal
(diuretic effect of low carb) and I'm so excited, I want it to
continue and keep it down and lose weight. Feels great....
This issue is really important for me now...thats why I'm asking left
and right......and rushing

You guys have tons of interesting info here.......

Anyhow ..thanks will talk to you latter ;-)


Hannah

"Liam T." wrote

The fat is about 107 grams a day mostly from xtra v olive oil (the
diet allows all the olive oil you want)



Thanks, I'm going to try to do my weights first and *do a little
cardio afterwards and gradually increase , hopefully by then I will
getting more carbs and I'll be a little more used to it.

You understand that's in direct conflict with intensity of
exercise, right? *There are reasons for staying at 20 for
longer than 14 days but none of those reasons center
around either loss rates or exercise intensity. *But it is
your choice to have directions that interfere with exercise
intensity. *Shrug, work on endurance on that treadmill for
the nonce.

Thanks, I have changed my routine and started with the weights first
and can get a real good workout , I do the treadmill and the reclined
bike afterwards with less intensity but its ok......I'll talk to my
Doc and find out more details ......


Any of the metabolic reasons tend to work just as well
on OWL as on Induction. *The reason is ketonuria. *As
long as you're in ketonuria your body is burning fat as
its primary fuel plus it's burning fat fast enough to
generate not just ketones (ketosis does this but can
be hard to detect) but ketones at a high enough level
to show in the urine. *Once in ketonuria it's unusual for
further carb reduction to make metabolic differences.
Fat can be burned slowly into acetyl-CoA without
ketones, quickly with ketones that are hard to detect,
very quickly with ketones enough to show in the urine.
Ketonuria is about a subtle difference between that
quickly and very quickly, but it happens to be a
distinction that's easy to test.

Remember that OWL starts with a march of weekly
increases in carb quota until you fall out of ketonuria
(CCLL being 5-10 below that point to be just barely in
ketonuria to avoid metabolic defenses against low carb
to develop) then a bit low to pop back into ketonuria
then cruise at CCLL in ketonuria. *If the goal of your
doc's plan is to be in ketonuria then he or she is the
one that needs to read the book. *It's disgusting how
few doctors have a clue about the 4 phases of Atkins,
even the ones that are pro low carb.

I'll find out more about reasons as why he's working this way, in
regards to the ketones I keep not showing them, perhaps I burn them
up, don't know . I'm still losing lots and being strict, so
whatever......


The fat is about 107 grams a day mostly from xtra v olive oil (the
diet allows all the olive oil you want)


Slow but sure wins the race. *Build up and see how the
endurance does a gradual build up past your pre-start
level. *Once at closer to 50 carb grams see how your
peak weights aren't any different that your pre-start
levels.

Thanks we'll see what happens.........

Liam T. wrote:
. You also might want to listen to Jimmie Moore's interview with
Eric Morrison. It's interesting to hear from a
trainer who uses and endorses a reduced-carb diet, as so many do not. I
think you might like this. This is the general URL for his podcast. You'll
need to page down (and eventually go to the archives) to find the Eric
Morrison interview.

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/

Thanks for this link, I found the interview interesting, from what I
understood he has a "carbo cheat day" which I guess can be
contoversial for many into low carbs.
I heard about it before with either the "ketogenic diet" of Lyle
McDonald or Body Opus from Dan Duchaine. You go low carb during the
week and then load carbs on the weekend, then do the hardest workout
on Mondays...

You may want to Google the web (and this NG) for TKD -
Targeted Ketogenic Diet. Although it may not be what you
need, it is another option.

Apparently Eric Morrison is in my neck of the woods...so I might look
him up.


I'm sorry if I came off as condescending or harsh. I maybe was being a bit
condescending, I'll admit. The standard on this ng has always been pretty
high in terms of expecting newcomers to have already done a fair amount of
homework.

I respect that you say this, I appreciate it.


The RTFB comment was kind of a nostalgic reminiscence directed more at the
oldies who come here... I think we all remember when this was one of the few
places on the net to discuss LC, and there would often be upwards of
hundreds to a thousand posts a day (!). It truly was not directed at you.

Sorry for this misunderstanding....(I'm blaming the induction


Liam I hope you stick around. The people remaining her have years and years
of experience at LC'ing. . But as far as I'm concerned you're quite welcome here.

Thank you kindly, I'm scrambling like crazy to get the maximum info
that is out there....my personal Doc was about to fire me unless I was
going to start taking blood pressure pills, which I really don't want
to take, family ,stress etc
Fortuntely with in 4 days of starting the diet my BP dropped to normal
(diuretic effect of low carb) and I'm so excited, I want it to
continue and keep it down and lose weight. Feels great....
This issue is really important for me now...thats why I'm asking left
and right......and rushing

You guys have tons of interesting info here.......

Anyhow ..thanks will talk to you latter ;-)


Hannah

"Liam T." wrote

The fat is about 107 grams a day mostly from xtra v olive oil (the
diet allows all the olive oil you want)



Thanks, I'm going to try to do my weights first and do a little
cardio afterwards and gradually increase , hopefully by then I will
getting more carbs and I'll be a little more used to it.



--
Rudy - Remove the Z from my address to respond.

"It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!"
-Emiliano Zapata

Check out the a.s.d.l-c FAQ at:
http://www.grossweb.com/asdlc/faq.htm

"Liam T." wrote:

... I found the interview interesting, from what I
understood he has a "carbo cheat day" which I guess can be
contoversial for many into low carbs.

Weight lifters tend to do this type of cycle. It's not a cheat
day - It's a switch from low carb to low fat and then back to
low carb again. View it as a cheat day and there's little
chance you'll get it right.

The reason its controvertial is this - If you do view it as a
cheat then it erodes your commitment to the plan. If you
are subject to carb cravings when starting low carb (most
are but not all) then you're putting yourself through the
hardest part of the first year of low carbing again and again
every week.

I heard about it before with either the "ketogenic diet" of Lyle
McDonald or Body Opus from Dan Duchaine. *You go low carb during the
week and then load carbs on the weekend, then do the hardest workout
on Mondays....

Biochemical reasons why this works. Note that weight
lifters use it to push their body fat percentage down well
below the ideal levels so question its use if that's not your
goal.

Look to studies of T3 thyriod levels of folks who stay at
or below 20 for a long time and you'll see mention that
T3 output goes down about two weeks in * My informal
data says that actually depends on amount to lose but
I'd need studies to move that bit from a hypothesis to a
theory. Thus a one day switch from low carb to low fat
and back keeps the T3 level high and thus the basal
metabolism high.

Also folks on Atkins who to the ketostix to measure
their ketone output know the typical pattern of high
output in the first two weeks then low output from then
on - The weekly cycle attempts to keep the body in that
initial over reaction and I think that's why they can push
body fat percentage below ideal. Everything I've seen in
long term low carbers who do mild systems like Atkins,
Eades, South Beach (must learn how to spell
Atagoston ...) is that anyone who doesn't do calorie
reduction doesn't lose the last 10 pounds so low carbing
alone won't drive folks below ideal weight or even to it.
Some use the appetite suppression of low carbing to
reduce appetite for the last 10, some use this cycling
trick, some are happy enough with their loss they settle.

Next is leptin. It's released by stored fat so the less
stored fat the less leptin and the lower the loss rate.
It's also released by the liver that somehow reflects the
highest carb intake in the last few months. Stay too
low, leptin from the liver eventually drives loss rate down
to zero - That's just another reason why every plan out
there increases carb quota over time or keeps it high
the entire time. And again the cycling trick handles
leptin by the weekly switch from low carb to low fat and
back to low carb again. Since there's a weekly high
carb day the liver's track of the highest carb intake in
the last several months always has a high level.

I consider cycling to be overkill and a way to handle
not following the directions in the first place. I know it
works and why, but I'd rather see folks march their carb
quotas up on schedule than not. Giving yourself
hormonal metabolic problems and then using cycling to
cure those problems just doesn't seem right to me
compared to not triggering those problems in the first
place by following the schedule. I view the attitudes
involved as too close to fad diet versus sustainable
lifestyle change.

The RTFB comment was kind of a nostalgic reminiscence directed more at the
oldies who come here... I think we all remember when this was one of the few
places on the net to discuss LC, and there would often be upwards of
hundreds to a thousand posts a day (!). It truly was not directed at you.

It's also universally true good advice. Consider what went into
writing each of the popular books - A decade or more of study
and experimentation to find non-obvious actions that work
better than the obvious. Then compare with the experience
level and typical conclusion of newbies with a month of
experience - So many newbies don't want to do the
non-obvious steps because they think the obvious is the best
course. The problem is nearly all newbies conclude that if
low carb is good then lower carb is better - If that were actually
true every single low carb book out there would teach exactly
that.

Fortuntely with in 4 days of starting the diet my BP dropped to normal
(diuretic effect of low carb) and I'm so excited, I want it to
continue and keep it down and lose weight. Feels great....

Doctor Atkins claimed that the single most predictable outcome
of low carbing was reduced blood pressure. It's a strange claim
from someone who made his living getting people to work on
losing stored fat but it sure matches my experience of a decade
reading what people report.

On Jul 19, 1:15*pm, "Liam T." wrote:
Hello There,

Hi.

Its a month that I started low carb, and I don't have energy to
workout.....

Not uncommon.

I do the eliptical *for 10 minutes and I'm burned out, where before I
could do 40 minutes at a higher bar.

Elliptical is probably a less than ideal machine for you to do cardio
with.
Biking and dreadmill are both better and closer to physiologically
correct.
There is no real natural movement that corresponds to what people do
on
an elliptical. As such, it can be bad for the hips and knees, while
feeling
easier on these than the bike or the 'mill.

FWIW: the dreadmill will also burn more calories for a given period
and
intensity.

I can walk on the treadwill.......

Okay.

I can do some weights but not like before, seems i'm losing muscle....

Unlikely.

I'm on induction , I eat lean meat salad, 4 cups veggie max, olive
oil, no fruit milk starches pasta potatoes etc
About 120 grms of protein a day, maybe 20 grms carb.

Have read about the olive oil. don't worry about lean meat. waste of
time/money.

I am in the camp that read the book and gleaned that Induction could
be extended in the case of more weight to lose. Could be extended
out to six months, if I recall correctly. So, anyone who is telling
you
that it's 14 days, and not one minute longer, before you have to go
to 25g of carbs and working in new food items, is missing something
from the book.

PS- is there really that big a difference between 20g and 25g? I
haven't
noticed anything.

PPS- The increasing carb number in OWL is a ceiling (as is the 20 in
Induction or the 40 in Protein Power Life Plan). It is not a mandatory
daily achievement.

My Doc says don't bother doing cardio to lose weight because I'm
insulin resistant (i should do it for improing heart), says I should
do weights to increase muscle and metabolism.

Well reasoned. Not that the cardio can't be useful for general health
and even weight loss. q.v. Intervals or HIIT. The best way to do
cardio.

I try to go workout everyday (i'm on a mission to bring my blood
pressure down)

You might look into lifting only 3 days a week, and at most, cardio
type stuff on the other days. You could probably dump the cardio
down to 2 days a week, on the days you don't lift.

Lift with full body programs.

And, as others have said, adaptation to fat burning takes time. Take
it slow. You're going to feel weak for a bit. In time, it comes back.

But I feel like i'm going nowhere, seems almost the more I try to
workout , the less I'm losing weight?

It's not just about the weight. It's about what's actually weighing
you
down. I'm gonna spare you the science and suggest that you're doing
fine.

In what way are you working out? Is it helping? Are you losing muscle?

Not losing muscle. That's for sure.
I do the treadmill, 20 minutes, with running intervals.
I lift weights, full body workouts. I sometimes do circuits. I
sometimes do
slow lifts. I sometimes do dynamic lifts. Changing it up every month
or
so.

It's very hard when you're just getting back into it from carb-ville.
It
takes time for your body to adjust to fat as fuel for this type of
thing.
Slow and steady wins the race.

I am in the camp that read the book and gleaned that Induction could
be extended in the case of more weight to lose. Could be extended
out to six months, if I recall correctly. So, anyone who is telling
you


Thanks for the reply.......the fellow here says he's been on induction
a year : http://youtube.com/watch?v=uMKVNzj-RZE&feature=user

You wouldn't know if this guy represents the Atkins foundation or is
he a "Joe off the street" that decided to make all these videos?

Dreadmill? LOL, I know what you mean.....

"Doug Freyburger" wrote ..

Doctor Atkins claimed that the single most predictable outcome
of low carbing was reduced blood pressure. It's a strange claim
from someone who made his living getting people to work on
losing stored fat but it sure matches my experience of a decade
reading what people report.

===============================================

Don't forget, Doug, that Dr. Atkins was a cardiologist before he became a
diet guru. So he would be very likely to have focused on the BP-lowering
effects of LC, as well as those involving weight loss.

HG

I don't see anything there that indicates he is associated with Atkins and
he doesn't appear very professional.

Liam T. wrote:
| Thanks for the reply.......the fellow here says he's been on induction
| a year : http://youtube.com/watch?v=uMKVNzj-RZE&feature=user
|
| You wouldn't know if this guy represents the Atkins foundation or is
| he a "Joe off the street" that decided to make all these videos?
|
| Dreadmill? LOL, I know what you mean.....