Ethical dilemma on eating meat

Mine came from watching those darn walt disney cartoons. And to me,
it is as much the dying issue as the living issue, although I recently
told my kids that my silent prayer before a meal is a wish that the
animals I am about to consume lived a good life.

PJ







On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 06:57:21 GMT, Luna
wrote:

In article ,
"Pat" wrote:

Like, it's ok for mankind to
use animals, but not to abuse them.

Not according to PETA. We're all equal, us animals, remember? Can't "use"
them at all.

4. I just thought of this option and it may be the best one, but could be
construed as hypocritical: Continue to eat the way I am, but try to
assuage
my guilt by doing some volunteer work involved with animals, possibly at a
kill-free shelter.

Any thoughts?

--
-Michelle Levin (Luna)

My thoughts a get rid of the PETA-induced guilt. It isn't appropriate and
it isn't useful. An animal wouldn't think twice before eating you! It's the
natural structure of the world. Top of the food chain, and all that. Don't
treat animals badly that you come in contact with, but understand that
anything you eat has suffered at some point. Plants are alive, too, you
know. You have enough to worry about without worrying about some steer in a
feed lot in west Texas.

Pat in TX



It's not PETA induced, I felt bad about eating animals even before I ever
heard of PETA. Can't remember at exactly what age I made the connection
between beef and cows, pork and pigs, but it gave me pause. I don't feel
as badly about eating the animals as I do about the way they're treated
when they're alive.

If it bothers you enough, fork over the dough for meat from free range
livestock. This looks like a good place to start:

http://www.napafreerangebeef.com/

Or Google for "free range beef."

Personally, I use option 1. Ignorance is bliss. Don't think about it so
much!

~Stretch~

"Luna" wrote in message

*sigh* I really should not watch the movie _Babe_ at the same time
I'm in the middle of re-reading _The Plague Dogs_. I've really been
struggling lately about the ethics of eating meat. Before low-carb,
I was eating a semi-vegetarian diet, no mammals and only occasional
chicken and fish. Now my diet is meat and veggie based, with more
red meat, chicken, and fish than I was eating before. And I struggle
with it.

I am of two minds about this. On the one hand, it's natural to eat
meat, animals eat other animals all the time, and I am an animal. I
don't believe in god, so I don't believe some higher power grants us
or animals "rights." I don't believe there is any such thing as
"natural rights," I believe that rights are what a society agrees on
and bases its laws on.

On the other hand, a lot of the animals I eat are sentient, feeling
creatures with the ability to suffer, and thanks to modern farming
processes they lead miserable lives before being slaughtered and
ending up on my table. I feel sometimes that since I have the
ability to think and care and choose, it's my responsibility to make
choices that do not increase the suffering of these creatures. Like,
it's ok for mankind to use animals, but not to abuse them.

My options a

1. Continue eating the way I am and ignore my misgivings.
2. Attempt a low-carb vegetarian diet, which at this point, to be
honest, seems more difficult than it would be worth, given the
wishy-washy nature of my misgivings.
3. Try to find sources for cruelty-free meat. I sometimes wish I
lived in a community of small, traditional farms, where the cows
grazed on the fields and the chickens were fed in the yard, and lived
free of suffering until they were humanely and quickly killed.
4. I just thought of this option and it may be the best one, but
could be construed as hypocritical: Continue to eat the way I am, but
try to assuage my guilt by doing some volunteer work involved with
animals, possibly at a kill-free shelter.

Any thoughts?

"Luna" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bob Pastorio wrote:

Luna wrote:
My options a

1. Continue eating the way I am and ignore my misgivings.
2. Attempt a low-carb vegetarian diet, which at this point, to be
honest,
seems more difficult than it would be worth, given the wishy-washy
nature
of my misgivings.
3. Try to find sources for cruelty-free meat. I sometimes wish I
lived in
a community of small, traditional farms, where the cows grazed on the
fields and the chickens were fed in the yard, and lived free of
suffering
until they were humanely and quickly killed.
4. I just thought of this option and it may be the best one, but could
be
construed as hypocritical: Continue to eat the way I am, but try to
assuage
my guilt by doing some volunteer work involved with animals, possibly
at a
kill-free shelter.

Any thoughts?

For people to eat, something has to die. For any animal to eat,
something has to die. There's no guilt to living as you must. As your
body is designed for.

Eating meat isn't an ethical question, it's an anthropomorphic one. We
attribute human characteristics to animals and they don't have them.
Animals aren't noble or ethical. They aren't concerned with cruelty,
only survival. They don't anguish over the realities.

Meat is what my body is designed for. Yours, too.

Pastorio


Um. Yeah. The problem isn't eating the meat, or the animals dying, it's
the suffering involved in their lives before they're slaughtered. And,
well, I believe animals are concerned with suffering and cruelty when it's
happening to them. They can suffer. They do suffer. They suffer so I
can eat them. Some of the conditions they live in that I've heard and
read
about are tantamount to torture, and that's what doesn't sit well in my
conscience. And as far as "attributing human characteristics to animals"
goes, I think it's pretty arrogant to assume that humans are the only
animals that can think and feel. If you look at studies done with
simians,
for example, you can find that they demonstrate attachments to each other,
empathy for one another. One experiment I read about concerned monkeys,
one monkey could push a button for food but it would give a painful shock
to another monkey, in view of the first monkey. When he figured it out,
he
stopped pushing the button and went without food until the experiment was
over, nearly starving. Anyway, I don't want to go to extremes in either
direction, not the PETA rout where they seem to value animals above
humans,
but nor do I want to live my life with total disregard for animals.

--
-Michelle Levin (Luna)
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick
http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna


Luna,

Although you don't believe in God, how about considering a kosher diet? I'm
not Jewish, so I can't give you all the specifics, but during a Bible study
that I participated in a few years ago, we discussed the kosher lifestyle.
Seems that kosher concerns being compassionate for the way in which animals
are killed and consumed. (Hope someone out there can help...) I do
remember one thing that the reason that beef and milk are never served
together at the same meal is because it is considered cruel to eat the meat
cooked in it's mother's milk.

Many apologies to those who know more about this than I.

Linda

Well....I can not help you with your dilemma. Only you can decide your
"path".

Myself, it is great being on the top of the food chain. Just part of
nature. I am sure that if a Grizzly was snacking on my fat ass
carcass in the woods he would also feel the same. :-)

KK

If you ever go out hunting, even if you get a nice clean shot, you'll notice
that animals hardly ever die instantly. With larger animals, you must remain
cognizant of this fact, because they'll try to fight back. That's what makes
it fun.

--
JC

Eat less, exercise more.

--
"Luna" wrote in message
...
It's not so much the eating part that bothers me, or even the killing
part,
it's the part where the animals suffer most of their lives before they're
slaughtered that bothers me the most. Maybe I should take up hunting, I
would have no ethical dillema at all about killing an animal in the wild,
with a nice clean shot so it died instantly, and then eating it. The
thing
about plants is, they seem to live pretty good lives when raised for food,
they're given fertilizer, pests and competing plants are kept away from
them, they're given the optimal treatment for growth and health. Animals
are given the optimal treatment for getting big, but there's no concern
for
their psychological health. And no, I don't think plants have a
psychology, I'm not quite _that_ loopy.

In article ,
"JC Der Koenig" wrote:

Plants and trees have been shown to have adverse reactions to damaging
stimuli: in other words, they can be thought of as feeling pain. If you
don't eat anything that feels pain, what will you then eat?

--
JC

Eat less, exercise more.


--
-Michelle Levin (Luna)
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick
http://www.mindspring.com/~designbyluna

Luna wrote in message .. .
I don't feel
as badly about eating the animals as I do about the way they're treated
when they're alive.

Luna, I understand your concerns. I think you live in Atlanta, is
that correct? There is probably a Whole Foods or similar chain in
that area that offers products grown with sustainable techniques and
meats raised with at least some thought to the issues you have raised.
At the very least, you can rely on free range poultry and eggs, where
the chickens have had a somewhat less miserable life than caged
mass-farm chicken. (I am not sure whether the cows or pigs who give
their lives for the beef and pork sold at Whole Foods live in
different conditions from mass market livestock, but you can ask at
the store.)

The tradeoff is, of course, that free range products cost more. If
mass-farming techniques weren't more efficient, they would not be the
dominant methods of production.

So if you can afford the price difference, you might find it a
reasonable compromise while you sort out a longer term way of eating.

Also, avoid all veal. There is no way to create veal that you would
not find unconscionably cruel, judging by your post above.


carla
new to low-carb
237/226/165?

carla wrote:

Luna wrote in message .. .
I don't feel
as badly about eating the animals as I do about the way they're treated
when they're alive.

Luna, I understand your concerns. I think you live in Atlanta, is
that correct? There is probably a Whole Foods or similar chain in
that area that offers products grown with sustainable techniques and
meats raised with at least some thought to the issues you have raised.
At the very least, you can rely on free range poultry and eggs, where
the chickens have had a somewhat less miserable life than caged
mass-farm chicken. (I am not sure whether the cows or pigs who give
their lives for the beef and pork sold at Whole Foods live in
different conditions from mass market livestock, but you can ask at
the store.)

The tradeoff is, of course, that free range products cost more. If
mass-farming techniques weren't more efficient, they would not be the
dominant methods of production.

So if you can afford the price difference, you might find it a
reasonable compromise while you sort out a longer term way of eating.

Also, avoid all veal. There is no way to create veal that you would
not find unconscionably cruel, judging by your post above.

carla
new to low-carb
237/226/165?

My 2 cents worth...if anyone is so undecided about their feelings of eating meat, then I would recommend a low cal veggie
diet. Me, I love meat too much for it to ever cross my mind.
Agree also who made mention about the food chain of life, that is how it is and always will be. A very personal preference
about foods we eat.

Myway

1. Continue eating the way I am and ignore my misgivings.
2. Attempt a low-carb vegetarian diet, which at this point, to be
honest,
seems more difficult than it would be worth, given the wishy-washy
nature
of my misgivings.
3. Try to find sources for cruelty-free meat. I sometimes wish I
lived in
a community of small, traditional farms, where the cows grazed on the
fields and the chickens were fed in the yard, and lived free of
suffering
until they were humanely and quickly killed.
4. I just thought of this option and it may be the best one, but could
be
construed as hypocritical: Continue to eat the way I am, but try to
assuage
my guilt by doing some volunteer work involved with animals, possibly
at a
kill-free shelter.

Any thoughts?

Get a dog.

We have two whippets (smaller variant of greyhound). Since they started
to hunt and I saw them killing rabbits (something I try to avoid as
possible), I lost any problems in this regard.

They are the nicest living animals you can imagine - gentle to kids,
sleeping most of day on sofa, looking tender. But when they are released
in area where they feel game, they transform to two fast cruel arrows
(they are pretty fast you know with only priority - to kill. And do
not think they kill in some human way - they kill rabbit youngsters if
they can, they kill without need to kill as they certainly do not starve
or need more food and whole hunt run since start to killing may take
minutes. Do you think they feel deprived after it ? Nope, you would not
find more happy dogs than ours sitting by the side of dead rabbit...

So what is the diffence between the animal we love and animal we eat ? I
think our dogs know this much better than we humans. They would never
attacked our family. They do not consider other people or other dogs to
be the food (I think they consider both people and dogs to be same
species).

Mirek

You have enough to worry about without worrying about some steer in a
feed lot in west Texas.


Actually, we should all be alot more worried about it. Primarily, what that
steer is being fed. They are given all sorts of bits and pieces of other
slaughted animals and euthanized dogs and cats. Not exactly the type of food
cows should be eating. My advice, is to read Fast Food Nation by Eric
Schlossser, the chapter "Whats In the Beef" is an eyeopener. I'm still eating
beef and all meats, just only those in "cuts" and never ground beef.

Kira
225/203/140
LC since 8-6-03

them, they're given the optimal treatment for growth and health.
Animals
are given the optimal treatment for getting big, but there's no
concern for
their psychological health. And no, I don't think plants have a
psychology, I'm not quite _that_ loopy.

You should also consider another aspect - if there will be no demand for
animal food, there will be no cows and pigs raised for food. Is this
what you want to happen ?

Mirek