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#11
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On the evils of wheat
Dogman wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote: On the order of 30-40% of the population benefits from reduced total carb intake and reduced glycemic load. The percentage of the population that could benefit from reduced total carb intake and reduced glycemic load is ~ the same percentage of the population that is overweight, pre-diabetic, and/or already diabetic. Exactly. Much larger than the percentage of population who have symptoms specific to any one food. The size of the effect of intolerances to the modern varieties of wheat in specific is simple to calculate. The best way to do it (actually, the only way to do it) is to stop eating grains and see what happens. n=1. Thus creditting the wrong thing just like I wrote. People who benefit from lower carb in general are going to benefit from replacing wheat with cauliflower, but it's not because it was wheat. They'd get equal benefit from replacing potatoes with cauliflower. People with Crones, Celiac, IBS benefit from removing wheat but that's because they benefit from removing any grain. People intolerant to spelt and kamut benefit from removing wheat but it's not because of the differences in modern wheat grains. And then there are the ones who actually are intolerant of modern wheat but who don't get symptoms from spelt or kamut - These are the ones who Dr Davis benefitted correctly. I've encountered people who have problems with modern wheat but not with spelt or kamut. They exist. Dr Davis is not wrong in the benefits of his plan to them, nor is he wrong in his explanation of why his plan works to them. They are a small segment of those who benefit from low carbing. |
#12
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On the evils of wheat
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:20:42 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
wrote: Dogman wrote: Doug Freyburger wrote: On the order of 30-40% of the population benefits from reduced total carb intake and reduced glycemic load. The percentage of the population that could benefit from reduced total carb intake and reduced glycemic load is ~ the same percentage of the population that is overweight, pre-diabetic, and/or already diabetic. Exactly. Much larger than the percentage of population who have symptoms specific to any one food. The size of the effect of intolerances to the modern varieties of wheat in specific is simple to calculate. The best way to do it (actually, the only way to do it) is to stop eating grains and see what happens. n=1. Thus creditting the wrong thing just like I wrote. I don't understand what that means. People who benefit from lower carb in general are going to benefit from replacing wheat with cauliflower, but it's not because it was wheat. According to Dr. Davis' book, there is a health benefit (meticulously researched and referenced) to eliminating wheat. Period. For everyone. You can, of course, disagree, and believe the wheat industry. You need to be able to look at eliminating wheat, and cutting carbs, as two different things. Eliminating wheat is one strategy: n=1 Restricting carbs (in general) is another strategy: n=1 Doing both (at the same time) would be yet another strategy: n=1 And each strategy might produce different results, and which can easily (and individually) be tested. Doug, I don't know why you're trying to make this more complicated than it really is. -- Dogman |
#13
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On the evils of wheat
Dogman wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote: Thus creditting the wrong thing just like I wrote. I don't understand what that means. Right. Getting cause and effect wrong by ignoring a ton of other contributing causes. Remove wheat, feel better. Credit the most recent mutations in the wheat genome. Bzzt. Fail to take into account the carbs, the fact that people have long been intolerant of wheat in specific and grains in general. Consider the observations that appear in the bibliography of the Protein Power book series - When any society switched from hunting to grain farming the general health of the skeletons went down the toilet. That's been happening to various societies for ten thousand years so blaming mutations of the last 50 years misses a lot. Pretty close to the same percentage of the population will get the same effect from removing potatoes, and a small percentage of them will benefit because they didn't know they are nightshade intolerant. But just like wheat most will improve because of carb count. Remove rice, feel better. Same pattern and again it have little to do with recent mutations in the wheat genome. Many times I've read statements like - There never used to be all this wheat intolerance. Sometimes the conclusion is - So it's nonsense. Wheat isn't bad. Sometimes the conclusion is - So it must be recent changes. Because all previous observations are completely reliable and wheat was never bad before. But both conclusions miss the exact same points. Wheat is one of several sources of high carb in our diets and most of us used to eat way too much carb. And some of us were wheat intolerant without ever knowing it because we were told that wheat is never a problem so we kept looking elsewhere for what was wrong. Should we go low carb? Yes. Cauliflower beats any sweet or starchy food. Should we limit grains in general and consider them no more valuable than any other vegetable carb gram for carb gram? Yes. Carb gram for carb gram root vegetables tend to beat grains. Should we avoid wheat more than other grains? Yes. There are more people who have problems with gluten bearing grains than people who have problems with other types of grain, carb gram for carb gram. Should be avoid modern wheat more than heirloom wheat? Yes. There exist people who, while already low carbing, found they tolerate spelt, kamut and other heirloom wheats but get symptoms from modern varieties. Those are sorted in order of how many people benefit from what cause, yet Dr Drew only focused on the least common cause. "Wheat Belly" is a stunt to make it sound like it's not Atkins. The book could have been "French Fry Belly" and had much the same result. |
#14
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On the evils of wheat
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:38:51 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
wrote: Dogman wrote: Doug Freyburger wrote: Thus creditting the wrong thing just like I wrote. I don't understand what that means. Right. Getting cause and effect wrong by ignoring a ton of other contributing causes. Not if you do the experiments on yourself, as I described. Remove wheat, feel better. Well, isn't that reason enough? If you also want to find out why you feel better, and how you can prevent the potential for disease by doing it, read the book. Credit the most recent mutations in the wheat genome. Bzzt. Fail to take into account the carbs, the fact that people have long been intolerant of wheat in specific and grains in general. Again...if you eliminate wheat, and then, say, replace the wheat carbs with other carbs, it can't just be carbs in general, can it? Before you reply, think about that one for a minute or two, okay? [...] Should we go low carb? Yes. Cauliflower beats any sweet or starchy food. Should we limit grains in general and consider them no more valuable than any other vegetable carb gram for carb gram? Yes. But wheat is not just another carb. That's the point you keep talking around. READ THE BOOK. [...] "Wheat Belly" is a stunt to make it sound like it's not Atkins. The book could have been "French Fry Belly" and had much the same result. You're wrong, Doug. Read the book. Plus, it's actually pretty silly of you to argue against the book without having read it. -- Dogman |
#15
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On the evils of wheat
On 28/09/2011 8:11 AM, Dogman wrote:
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:38:51 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger wrote: Dogman wrote: Doug wrote: Thus creditting the wrong thing just like I wrote. I don't understand what that means. Right. Getting cause and effect wrong by ignoring a ton of other contributing causes. Not if you do the experiments on yourself, as I described. Remove wheat, feel better. Well, isn't that reason enough? If you also want to find out why you feel better, and how you can prevent the potential for disease by doing it, read the book. Credit the most recent mutations in the wheat genome. Bzzt. Fail to take into account the carbs, the fact that people have long been intolerant of wheat in specific and grains in general. Again...if you eliminate wheat, and then, say, replace the wheat carbs with other carbs, it can't just be carbs in general, can it? Before you reply, think about that one for a minute or two, okay? [...] Should we go low carb? Yes. Cauliflower beats any sweet or starchy food. Should we limit grains in general and consider them no more valuable than any other vegetable carb gram for carb gram? Yes. But wheat is not just another carb. That's the point you keep talking around. READ THE BOOK. [...] "Wheat Belly" is a stunt to make it sound like it's not Atkins. The book could have been "French Fry Belly" and had much the same result. You're wrong, Doug. Read the book. Plus, it's actually pretty silly of you to argue against the book without having read it. You can easily argue against a book without reading it, though your argument might be more convincing if you can quote specific areas of dispute. Anyone can argue against a the précis of a book without reading the book itself. Look at how many argue against the Bible without reading it. That aside, without reading any books, a decade or two back, after initially changing to a low carb diet (NOT ATKINS) just cutting empty carbs (those that offer little other nutritional value) I have slowly evolved into a wheat avoider. I discovered by accident that when what few remaining wheat containing items in my diet were eliminated my general health improved noticeably. The only things that openly were wheat based remaining in my diet were unleavened flat-breads - thin roll-ups. I ate small quantities of these for several years as a convenient midday meal. Usually with chicken, prawns or other seafood and salad. One day my store was out of them, but had pure Rye flat-breads. I bought a bunch of them and after a few days felt better than normal. Next time I shopped, wheat was back in stock so I bought them. A few days later, my energy levels and mood dropped a little. The next time I shopped, I remembered the Rye and tried them again. Bingo! I have not gone back to any wheat based product since. Rye doesn't seem all that different to wheat, but for me the difference is unmistakeable. |
#16
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On the evils of wheat
On 28/09/2011 2:33 PM, Dogman wrote:
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 11:31:19 +1000, wrote: [...] "Wheat Belly" is a stunt to make it sound like it's not Atkins. The book could have been "French Fry Belly" and had much the same result. You're wrong, Doug. Read the book. Plus, it's actually pretty silly of you to argue against the book without having read it. You can easily argue against a book without reading it, though your argument might be more convincing if you can quote specific areas of dispute. Anyone can argue against a the précis of a book without reading the book itself. Look at how many argue against the Bible without reading it. Well, one can argue against anything, I suppose (No, the earth is flat!), but it's pretty silly (and futile) to argue against what's in a book without actually reading it first. As far as those who argue against what's in the Bible goes, again, it's usually the ones who have never read it. I have read it from cover to cover and I'll take great delight in arguing against it. Having read it and have an eidetic memory I can have more fun with chapter and verse demolition. That aside, without reading any books, a decade or two back, after initially changing to a low carb diet (NOT ATKINS) just cutting empty carbs (those that offer little other nutritional value) I have slowly evolved into a wheat avoider. I discovered by accident that when what few remaining wheat containing items in my diet were eliminated my general health improved noticeably. [...] That's pretty much Dr. Davis' point, in a nutshell. That is fine, I am not arguing against it, but if he had been claiming that wheat was vital to good health I would argue against his claim but have no interest at all in reading his book. I read several books per day and I don't need to include patently obvious junk in the mix. |
#17
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On the evils of wheat
On 28/09/2011 3:53 PM, Dogman wrote:
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 15:21:08 +1000, wrote: [...] As far as those who argue against what's in the Bible goes, again, it's usually the ones who have never read it. I have read it from cover to cover and I'll take great delight in arguing against it. Having read it and have an eidetic memory I can have more fun with chapter and verse demolition. Reading it and understanding it are two different things. I am sure that you have been told that many, many times. I have an excellent understanding of it, I minored in Biblical studies - just for fun and because it was easy. (And to be better able to annoy GodBotherers.) You always seem way too full of spittle to ever really understand anything. Spittle? What a strange comment. Makes no sense at all. That aside, without reading any books, a decade or two back, after initially changing to a low carb diet (NOT ATKINS) just cutting empty carbs (those that offer little other nutritional value) I have slowly evolved into a wheat avoider. I discovered by accident that when what few remaining wheat containing items in my diet were eliminated my general health improved noticeably. [...] That's pretty much Dr. Davis' point, in a nutshell. That is fine, I am not arguing against it Then why even stick your head into this thread? Oh, yeah...I forgot. You're a troll. No, I have something to say. You should try that approach sometime. |
#18
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On the evils of wheat
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:04:56 +1000, Who_me?
wrote: On 28/09/2011 3:53 PM, Dogman wrote: On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 15:21:08 +1000, wrote: [...] As far as those who argue against what's in the Bible goes, again, it's usually the ones who have never read it. I have read it from cover to cover and I'll take great delight in arguing against it. Having read it and have an eidetic memory I can have more fun with chapter and verse demolition. Reading it and understanding it are two different things. I am sure that you have been told that many, many times. When it comes to the Bible, indeed I have. I have an excellent understanding of it, I minored in Biblical studies - just for fun and because it was easy. (And to be better able to annoy GodBotherers.) Your understanding of it will be tested again one day, and I have a hunch that He won't be grading on the curve. You always seem way too full of spittle to ever really understand anything. Spittle? What a strange comment. Makes no sense at all. That's because there's no there there. That aside, without reading any books, a decade or two back, after initially changing to a low carb diet (NOT ATKINS) just cutting empty carbs (those that offer little other nutritional value) I have slowly evolved into a wheat avoider. I discovered by accident that when what few remaining wheat containing items in my diet were eliminated my general health improved noticeably. [...] That's pretty much Dr. Davis' point, in a nutshell. That is fine, I am not arguing against it Then why even stick your head into this thread? Oh, yeah...I forgot. You're a troll. No, I have something to say. No, you don't. You just enjoy stirring the pot. Thus, you're a troll. I remember back when trolls were witty and actually added something of value to a discussion. -- Dogman |
#19
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On the evils of wheat
On 29/09/2011 1:17 AM, Dogman wrote:
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:04:56 +1000, wrote: On 28/09/2011 3:53 PM, Dogman wrote: On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 15:21:08 +1000, wrote: [...] As far as those who argue against what's in the Bible goes, again, it's usually the ones who have never read it. I have read it from cover to cover and I'll take great delight in arguing against it. Having read it and have an eidetic memory I can have more fun with chapter and verse demolition. Reading it and understanding it are two different things. I am sure that you have been told that many, many times. When it comes to the Bible, indeed I have. I have an excellent understanding of it, I minored in Biblical studies - just for fun and because it was easy. (And to be better able to annoy GodBotherers.) Your understanding of it will be tested again one day, and I have a hunch that He won't be grading on the curve. You always seem way too full of spittle to ever really understand anything. Spittle? What a strange comment. Makes no sense at all. That's because there's no there there. That aside, without reading any books, a decade or two back, after initially changing to a low carb diet (NOT ATKINS) just cutting empty carbs (those that offer little other nutritional value) I have slowly evolved into a wheat avoider. I discovered by accident that when what few remaining wheat containing items in my diet were eliminated my general health improved noticeably. [...] That's pretty much Dr. Davis' point, in a nutshell. That is fine, I am not arguing against it Then why even stick your head into this thread? Oh, yeah...I forgot. You're a troll. No, I have something to say. No, you don't. You just enjoy stirring the pot. Thus, you're a troll. Oh, I get it. A troll is anyone who doesn't agree with you. Your life must be absolutely riddled with trolls. Have you ever considered growing up? |
#20
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On the evils of wheat
Dogman wrote:
Susan wrote: Doug is an Atkins acolyte. If he has to follow someone, he could do worst than Dr. Atkins. He is the starting point for all of the modern low carb movement. To say that any book author since is not an Atkins acolyte is unrealistic. Without Atkins there is no low carb movement. Saying some low carb book author is not a low carb acolyte is like saying a sailor is not aware of the ocean. Just to check - Are the reviews incorrect when they say Dr Davis's book "Wheat Belly" focuses on wheat as the primary cause of the modern obesity epidemic? That's something that has been true since the invention of modern milling that separates the bran, endosperm and germ. Billy wrote: And Gary Taubes mentions in his book (GCBC) that sugar cane workers consume considerable amounts of sugar cane to no apparent ill effect, but they also work like dogs (mucho trabajo). Degree of refinement matters. |
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