If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#221
|
|||
|
|||
Down Fall of Low Carb
|
#222
|
|||
|
|||
Down Fall of Low Carb
SNIP Depends on what you're talking about....I know slim people who manage to have decreased lifespan too. I know fat people who don't control BP and diabetes who die from those complications. So, is it being overweight or not dealing with related issues that kills? This is what struck me out of that post. It made me think of people--diabetic or not--who are fat because of some other condition that prevents them from getting any exercise. I was in a doctor's waiting room one day, listening to 3 diabetic people in wheelchairs while waiting for a prescription. They were all really obese, but how much of it was because they couldn't walk or because one or more feet had been amputated? One of them remarked that when a doctor told her "way back when" to control her food intake and bring her diabetes under control, she just flat didn't believe him---after all, she felt just fine (at the time).I know a woman who desperately needs a knee replacement but is afraid of the surgery. She doesn't walk much and so is putting on the weight. If she dies prematurely, is it from the obesity or from the inactivity? Just wondering, because obesity may be from other causes than overeating.... Pat in TX |
#223
|
|||
|
|||
Down Fall of Low Carb
On May 13, 9:09 am, "Roger Zoul" wrote:
wrote: :: Oh, good grief. What would satisfy you? Does "Obesity" have to go :: on the death certificate? Wow...I'm not going to bother responding to your points since this entire exchange has gone stupid. The point I originally replied to had to do with Aaron saying this: "Being overweight appears to me to be one of the worst things you can do to your health -- I've known 90-year-old smokers and drinkers, but no 90-year-old fat people -- so I can't imagine how you'd separate those two things. If your diet causes you to gain weight or keep on extra weight, it's unhealthy." Now, you're pecking out BS about "morbidly obese". Where did he say that? Aaron knows how to use words and I know how to read them. His comment said "being overweight". Now, exactly where does one determine the point where one is overweight? Once they are morbidly obese? Was he saying that he doesn't see any 90-yo morbidly obese people or was he saying something else? Surely, you'll respond by telling us what to assume he meant. Again, get real. My comments regarding what would have to go on a death certificate to satisfy you came about because when I asked if you didn't agree that obesity decreases lifespan, you refused to answer the question and instead stated that those people die of heart disease, diabetes, etc. And I'm supposed to get real? I only brought up morbid obesity because you refuse to acknowledge that there is overwhelming evidence that obese people have a shorter lifespan that those that are not obese. And that's why when it's severe enough, they call it morbid obesity. And sure I know Aaron used the terms overweight and fat. That is why BMI entered the discussion, because I wanted to clarify what I meant by obese.. BMI provides a way to do a first order catagorization of people who are normal, overweight, obese and morbidly obese. Unless you have some kind of definition of what is meant by fat, obese, normal, you can't classify mortality rates at all. And I agree BMI isn't perfect, but it one way. And when you do,the data show that those in the obese and morbid obesity groups have shorter lifespans. So, it's not unusual that we wouldn't encounter obese 90+ people. And Aaron's observation was interesting. It got me thinking and my experience agrees with it, as I've know 90+ folks, but none that were obese. Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me and really can't see why anyone would find this observation so controversial or objectionable. And as for Doug, perhaps you should do some googling. I spent many a post on some of this comments. The thing is, though, rarely is anything he says harmful, IMO. Yeah, I do agree that he has his own ideas about how to do Atkins, and I can see some value to them. But he can definitely "read" some thing there (as far as I can tell) that doesn't seem to be there. I dont' have problems with that as long as he says stuff like "IMO" rather than trying say what Atkins really means or meant. I know you did weigh in against what he was saying some of the time and I appreciated it. What I can;t understand is your vehement objection to my simple observation that like Aaron, in my life experience, I haven't known any 90+ obese people. In my view there was plenty that Doug spewed as fact that you never objected to, or called silly, while for some reason my simple observation about 90 years old, which is clearly only an observation, is so objectionable. |
#224
|
|||
|
|||
Down Fall of Low Carb
|
#225
|
|||
|
|||
Down Fall of Low Carb
On May 14, 1:41 pm, "Roger Zoul" wrote:
wrote: :: On May 13, 9:09 am, "Roger Zoul" wrote:::: wrote: ::: ::::: Oh, good grief. What would satisfy you? Does "Obesity" have to ::::: go on the death certificate? ::: ::: Wow...I'm not going to bother responding to your points since this ::: entire exchange has gone stupid. The point I originally replied to ::: had to do with Aaron saying this: ::: ::: "Being overweight appears to me to be one of the worst things you ::: can ::: do to your health -- I've known 90-year-old smokers and drinkers, ::: but ::: no 90-year-old fat people -- so I can't imagine how you'd separate ::: those two things. If your diet causes you to gain weight or keep on ::: extra weight, it's unhealthy." ::: ::: Now, you're pecking out BS about "morbidly obese". Where did he ::: say that? Aaron knows how to use words and I know how to read them. ::: His comment said "being overweight". Now, exactly where does one ::: determine the point where one is overweight? Once they are ::: morbidly obese? Was he saying that he doesn't see any 90-yo ::: morbidly obese people or was he saying something else? ::: ::: Surely, you'll respond by telling us what to assume he meant. ::: Again, get real. ::: :: :: :: My comments regarding what would have to go on a death certificate to :: satisfy you came about because when I asked if you didn't agree that :: obesity decreases lifespan, you refused to answer the question and :: instead stated that those people die of heart disease, diabetes, :: etc. And I'm supposed to get real? I didn't respond to the question because you asked a question that I never had an objection to. Thus, we're simply talking passed one another in these long convoluted threads. My issues weren't about simply being obese as they are about being overweight, which I think is a very different thing. Again, if you read Aaron's statement he doesn't even make that distinction, which frankly, I think is a nit worth picking. Again, I agree that there is a difference between being modestly overweight and being obese. Which is why I used the term obese, rather than fat and offerd BMI as one measuere used to catagorize obese, vs overweight and normal people. I never expected it to be so controversial. The greater issue of whether being obese decreases lifespan is still debatable, IMO. That finally answers part of the question. It's now clear that you aren't convinced that obesity leads to a shortened lifespan. Historically, I think research conclusions are available which says it has contributed strongly to decreased lifespan. However, I think lifestyle issues also weigh in heavily too. Thus, it very well could be possible that an obese person (since that's now what we're talking about) might not have shortened lifespan if lifestyle issues such as being sedentary, poor diet, and control of BG, BP, and other markers are held in check as the the person ages. I think that over the past 50 years substanial improvements have been made on the ability of a person to actually control many of these other factors, even though it may be harder for a person to gain control over the weight issue. Do you have data that controls for these issues? If you do, I'd be happy to read them and revise my position where appropriate. : No, while data that conrols for some things is likely available, I haven't seen any. : :: :: I only brought up morbid obesity because you refuse to acknowledge :: that there is overwhelming evidence that obese people have a shorter :: lifespan that those that are not obese. And that's why when it's :: severe enough, they call it morbid obesity. And sure I know Aaron :: used the terms overweight and fat. That is why BMI entered the :: discussion, because I wanted to clarify what I meant by obese.. BMI :: provides a way to do a first order catagorization of people who are :: normal, overweight, obese and morbidly obese. Unless you have some :: kind of definition of what is meant by fat, obese, normal, you can't :: classify mortality rates at all. And I agree BMI isn't perfect, but :: it one way. And when you do,the data show that those in the obese :: and morbid obesity groups have shorter lifespans. So, it's not :: unusual that we wouldn't encounter obese 90+ people. And Aaron's :: observation was interesting. It got me thinking and my experience :: agrees with it, as I've know 90+ folks, but none that were obese. :: Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me and really can't see :: why anyone would find this observation so controversial or :: objectionable. Again, you're putting the blame quite squarely on a single factor. Thus, I won't agree because I basicaly believe that's too simplistic. :: And here's where you go completely astray. I'm not putting blame anywhere. I never said obesity is a single factor. All I was saying was 1 - In my life expeience I haven't known any obese 90+ year olds 2 - There is plenty of statistical evidence that shows obese people have shortened lifespans, so #1 above isn't surprising. Now, how this gets turned into maybe it's not the obesity that's doing it, but being sedentary, poor diet, uncontrolled BG levels, etc is beyond me. I'm not arguing any of that. It doesn't change the fact that obese people as a group have a shortened lifespan. If obesity causes the sedentary lifestyle or if the sedentary lifestyle causes the obesity, it doesn't change the fact that as a group, obese people die sooner. :: ::: And as for Doug, perhaps you should do some googling. I spent many ::: a post on some of this comments. The thing is, though, rarely is ::: anything he says harmful, IMO. Yeah, I do agree that he has his own ::: ideas about how to do Atkins, and I can see some value to them. ::: But he can definitely "read" some thing there (as far as I can ::: tell) that doesn't seem to be there. I dont' have problems with ::: that as long as he says stuff like "IMO" rather than trying say ::: what Atkins really means or meant. :: :: I know you did weigh in against what he was saying some of the time :: and I appreciated it. What I can;t understand is your vehement :: objection to my simple observation that like Aaron, in my life :: experience, I haven't known any 90+ obese people. I think "vehement" is a bit strong. It just looks that way as I'm willing to debate a point about which I think overly simplistic views are being put forth. My position is no more "vehement" than yours. :: In my view there :: was plenty that Doug spewed as fact that you never objected to, or :: called silly, while for some reason my simple observation about 90 :: years old, which is clearly only an observation, is so objectionable. You know as well as I do that n=2 is a poor base from which to draw conclusions. But more than that, being simplistic never helps anyone. The message I hear is "Oh, I'm way too fat and I can't deal with it, so I should expect to die early." Don;t know who you heard that from, certianly not me. I would say though that obesity leads to many health complications that will shorten your lifespan and quality of life, and to avoid that you should lose weight. This kind of simplistic thinking has far reaching impacts, IMO. Insurance companies draw rates based on BMI only (because it's simple). Yes, they may, use BMI as one indicator, because there is statistical basis for it. However, it's only one factor, which together with a whole bunch of other ones determines the rate. Many policies are issued with no physical, so, what other measure should they use. Would you give the same rate to a 5-10 175lb guy and one that weighed 250? Worse yet, people assume there is little they can do to improve their odds other than lose weight. I'm not convinced of that. What would happen if those people didn't manage to lose a single pound but instead improved BG, BP, Chol, and because less sedentary? Would that add years to their lives or not? If you claim that it's simply a matter of the amount of fat on their bodies, then obviously these people are doomed to your supposed fate. Sure, doing some of those things will likely improve their lifespan. I would never argue that it wouldn't. But I doubt it's going to increase their lifespan or quality of life as much as losing weight would. And I don't think you'd argue that it's better to get things under control by losing weight than by taking 6 different drugs, which is what most people today who are obese and under a Dr care would do to get BG, BP, Chole, etc under control. |
#226
|
|||
|
|||
Down Fall of Low Carb
"Roger Zoul" writes:
You look out at "a" population (on that which you see) and you draw conclusions. "Ah, none of these old people are fat. Therefore, being "fat" is unhealthy. Yet, you made no mention of the slim people you didn't see that are dead as well. Why don't you count them alongside the fat people who also aren't there? So *all* slim people have to reach old age before you're willing to claim something statistically interesting might be happening? Come on. If 10% of all left-handed baseball players had batting averages over ..400, and only 1% of right-handed players did so, that would be statistically significant, and left-handed prospects would be more valuable in general. You wouldn't say, "Yeah, but what about the other 90% of left-handers who don't hit .400? Why don't you count them?" The answer is: I am counting them, by elimination. In my family, the people who have lived to 90+ were slim; and the ones who were still healthy and active at that age, and not abed in a nursing home, tend to be the ones who were slim all their lives. When I see the old guys roll up in their Rascals to the coffee shop downstairs every morning, I see a bunch of thin guys. After a while, I start to think, hmm, maybe there's a connection here. I'm not writing a thesis here, for cripes sake, or working from a government grant. I'm just musing on my observations, and noting that some of our priorities where health risks are concerned don't seem to be proportional to the actual danger. It seems to me that obesity -- or certain factors that cause obesity -- shortens the average lifespan more consistently than many things that we worry a lot more about. That's all. -- Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz "Most of us inhabit at least two worlds: the real world, where we're at the mercy of circumstance; and the world within, the unconscious, a safe place where we can escape." -- The Maxx |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
ketos does not fall | CRAZZY BUGGER | Low Carbohydrate Diets | 17 | May 20th, 2006 12:03 AM |
Trousers fall down! | Kate Dicey | Weightwatchers | 7 | April 28th, 2006 11:58 AM |
Article: Soda Sales fall | Carol Frilegh | General Discussion | 3 | March 10th, 2006 07:24 PM |
When your cloths start to fall off | Tori M | Low Carbohydrate Diets | 33 | July 17th, 2005 01:33 AM |
My fall update... how she fell and is trying to get up again | Cynthia Perry | General Discussion | 6 | October 20th, 2004 03:14 PM |