Type II diabetes, low carb (Atkins) and insulin levels..

Matt,

What your doctor said is very reasonable and reflects my own experience.
After hitting my goal last summer, I started slowly gaining weight this
winter no matter how much I cut carbs or calories. I went to an
endocrinologist who measured my fasting C-Peptide (a measure of insulin
production) together with my fasting glucose. The pattern showed that I was
producing far too much insulin. Apparently my insulin resistance had gotten
stronger after a year of low carbing. My hba1c was 5.2 at the time that I
started gaining weight. My fasting was about 100 mg/dl. So yes, my control
was spectacular. Didn't mean squat.

I am currently taking Metformin and managed to get back to the weight I
wanted to be at. Not only that, but it lets me eat more carbs without
spiking, if I don't go crazy. Metformin can reduce insulin resistance in the
muscles and liver.

Sadly, type 2 is complicated and so is insulin resistance.

-- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.4.
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm



"Matt" wrote in message
news
Hi All,

I am a type II diabetic on Atkins. I have lost probably 40-50 pounds
in the year I have been on the diet. I also feel great.

However for the last 4 or 5 months, I have been stalling. I am eating
less than 30 carbs a day and exercising as I have since day one. It
seems I lost most of my weight easily in the first few months. I have
another 110-130 to go. My HbA1c has always been in the mid 5's and my
doctor is very pleased with my glucose control with diet and (later)
exercise alone.

When I saw my doctor today and asked her about stalling, she told me
she would test my insulin levels. Because has seen low carb dieters
run into long stalls and slow loss because of higher insulin levels
EVEN if they have good HbA1c AND good fasting glucose (mines in the
upper 80's usually). I have always struggled to loose weight.

Questions:

Does the above sound reasonable (good blood sugar control, but high
insulin levels)? And could this be my problem?

Also, I tried Glucophage when I was initially diagnosed with Diabetes.
I could *NOT* tolerate this medication. I tried it four 3-4 weeks and
it punished my digestive system. However it was an excellent motivator
to eat right and exercise.

So, my doctor told me that if my insulin levels were high I could go
on Avandia to help lower insulin levels. She initially recommended
Glucophage and also mentioned Glucophage XR, but I am nervous about
considering either because of my very bad Glucophage experience. So
she suggested Avaindia. Yet, I read on Atkins sight that Avandia can
cause stall's!

So, one more question: If my insulin level is high (and that could
cause the above stall/loss problems), should I try the Avandia?

Thanks for reading and any advice you can give! I need it.

Matt

Priscilla H Ballou quoth:
Dolkian quoth:
Alice Faber wrote:
In article ,
Dolkian wrote:
I would never try a low carb diet if I were Diabetic.

That's too bad. You probably have trouble with control then or be on lots
of meds.

I meant "you would have trouble" (since you indicate you aren't diabetic).

Priscilla

Jackie,

You're absolutely right. Avandia and Actos have been shown to cause the
grown of brand new fat cells in the upper legs and butt. This is probably
not the way you want to reduce insulin resistance. Not only that, but
studies showing them helping with insulin resistance are flawed because in
several cases the group that had better results at the end of the study also
had better numbers at the START, which is not made clear. Drug companies are
very involved in these studies, often in ways that are not revealed.

I have heard from my Endocrinologist that she does not like Actos and
Avandia because of the weight gain and the tendency they have to pack water
on people, too. Metformin does cause weight loss and seems to be more
effective.

-- Jenny - Low Carbing for 4 years. At goal for weight. Type 2 diabetes,
hba1c 5.4.
Cut the carbs to respond to my email address!

Low carb facts and figures, my weight-loss photos, tips, recipes,
strategies for dealing with diabetes and more at
http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/

Looking for help controlling your blood sugar?
Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/...0Diagnosed.htm



"Jackie Patti" wrote in message
...
Matt wrote:

I'd be more likely to try the Glucophage XR myself. I've read a lot
about side effects with Actos and Avandia that seem more extreme than
the GI distress from metformin. Google about it.

Plus metformin has two modes of action - it both reduces insulin
resistance as Actos and Avandia do, but also interferes with the liver's
production of glucose from protein. That's particularly important if
your fbg runs high as mine does, but is also important for minimizing
insulin production.

It also seems to increase the rate of weight loss due to limiting
insulin, but until the GI effects are stabilized, it's hard to say if
I'm seeing that or not myself.

I personally feel more comfortable with metformin because it's been on
the market longer; I tend to be generally suspicious of drugs. Too many
get approved and yanked off the market a few years later, I prefer
letting others go first and discover the problems.

If it were me, I'd try the XR stuff and taper the dosage up very, very
slowly to minimize side effects. If that doesn't work for you, the
other meds are always there.

--
As you accelerate your food, it takes exponentially more and more energy
to increase its velocity, until you hit a limit at C. This energy has
to come from somewhere; in this case, from the food's nutritional value.
Thus, the faster the food is, the worse it gets.
-- Mark Hughes, comprehending the taste of fast food

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 11:20:28 -0700, Dolkian
announced in front of God and everybody:

The ADA is a wonderful group and works with scientific facts nor pie
in the sky (as it were) ideas. Sugar can be consumed in any diet even
that of a diabetic.

And yet untold numbers of diabetics have found -- and are discovering
daily -- that instead of eating the relatively high-carb diet
recommended by the ADA and managing their blood sugar with
medications, they can feel better and gain significant health gains by
doing the *logical* thing and cutting way back on the simple carbs in
their diet. And, surprisingly often, cut back or get entirely off the
medications.

But don't let that change your mind. I mean, you're not diabetic and
you know nothing about low-carb eating ... but the facts shouldn't
sway you from your opinion.

Dawn

If he gives you the prescription, do some research on it. Some drugs are
dangerous. My feeling is that USENET is not the place to get opinions on
something that intrusive.

There can be many causes for stalls. The first thing to check is your
caloric intake. Try http://www.FitDay.com to find out how many calories you
are consuming per day. I'll assume your carbs are OK, given your good
HBA1c.

Atkins has a list of about 20 things to check, if stalled.

"Matt" wrote in message
news
Hi All,

I am a type II diabetic on Atkins. I have lost probably 40-50 pounds
in the year I have been on the diet. I also feel great.

However for the last 4 or 5 months, I have been stalling. I am eating
less than 30 carbs a day and exercising as I have since day one. It
seems I lost most of my weight easily in the first few months. I have
another 110-130 to go. My HbA1c has always been in the mid 5's and my
doctor is very pleased with my glucose control with diet and (later)
exercise alone.

When I saw my doctor today and asked her about stalling, she told me
she would test my insulin levels. Because has seen low carb dieters
run into long stalls and slow loss because of higher insulin levels
EVEN if they have good HbA1c AND good fasting glucose (mines in the
upper 80's usually). I have always struggled to loose weight.

Questions:

Does the above sound reasonable (good blood sugar control, but high
insulin levels)? And could this be my problem?

Also, I tried Glucophage when I was initially diagnosed with Diabetes.
I could *NOT* tolerate this medication. I tried it four 3-4 weeks and
it punished my digestive system. However it was an excellent motivator
to eat right and exercise.

So, my doctor told me that if my insulin levels were high I could go
on Avandia to help lower insulin levels. She initially recommended
Glucophage and also mentioned Glucophage XR, but I am nervous about
considering either because of my very bad Glucophage experience. So
she suggested Avaindia. Yet, I read on Atkins sight that Avandia can
cause stall's!

So, one more question: If my insulin level is high (and that could
cause the above stall/loss problems), should I try the Avandia?

Thanks for reading and any advice you can give! I need it.

Matt

On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 11:18:52 -0700, Dolkian
announced in front of God and everybody:

We prefer following our doctors and dieticians advice as how to
care for any disease.

Even when they're wrong?

Doctors make mistakes all the time. And many doctors fail to keep up
with advances in information, especially where nutrition is concerned.

In a society where one's HMO only allows for a five minute visit with
a doctor who only knows most of their patients as the list of symptoms
they're treating that day, where writing a prescription is stressed
over any sort of holistic treatment ... it pays to educate yourself
about nutritional and medical advances.

Doctors, dieticians and nutritionists are only human. And it's human
nature to cling to old, comfortable belief systems, even when they're
being proven incorrect. Read a little, get smarter on the subject, and
don't leave your health 100% in the hands of someone who may be more
beholden to an HMO and/or a pharmaceutical concern -- or simply be
unwilling to accept that what they've theought was correct is being
proven false by study after study -- than to the welfare of patients.

Dawn

Jenny wrote:
I have heard from my Endocrinologist that she does not like
Actos and Avandia because of the weight gain and the tendency
they have to pack water on people, too. Metformin does cause
weight loss and seems to be more effective.


Based on my inital reaction to Metformin, I bet the initial weight loss
is water weight loss -- ROTFL BJ

"Dawn Taylor" wrote in message
...

In a society where one's HMO only allows for a five minute visit with
a doctor who only knows most of their patients as the list of symptoms
they're treating that day, where writing a prescription is stressed
over any sort of holistic treatment ... it pays to educate yourself
about nutritional and medical advances.

You know, you've prompted me to say something to this group that I've been
meaning to say for awhile, just never got around to it.

When I first came to this group (as a lurker) I knew next to nothing about
low-carb diets, only that I had a few friends that had lost weight on
Atkins, and I was curious to try. I was immediately surprised by the number
of diabetics that frequented here, having no real knowledge of the
relationship between carbohydrates and insulin.

The more I read, the more impressed I became with all of you. It finally
occurred to me that doctors, for all their education and experience with
diabetics and the nuances of nutrition, can usually at most say "well, I've
discovered that this works" or "the journals report success with...", and at
the end of the day they shuck their coats and go home, leaving the workday
behind them. The diabetics here can all, almost without fail, say "been
there done that." And I think that's an important difference.

I'm more inclined to give credence to many of the people here than someone
with a degree and no firsthand knowledge. Except for that one poster that
advised me to buy a Ford pickup.

Dolkian wrote:
:: That is YOUR opinion. An opinion not shared by the ADA!
::

Perfectly obvious.

:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::: Dolkian wrote:
::::: I would never try a low carb diet if I were Diabetic.
::::: Diabetics need a well rounded diet that includes fruits and
::::: vegetables. Check out the ADA site (American Diabetic
::::: Assoc.) They have wonderful programs.
::::: Dokan
:::
::: Why don't you speak about things you know something about? I've
::: been a type 2 for 24 years and via low carb and exericse, I have
::: fasting BG around 80, A1Cs around 5.1, and have lost 130 lbs. The
::: ADA recommendations for diabetics are a kiss of death, imo.
:::
:::::
::::: Alice Faber wrote:
:::::
:::::: In article ,
:::::: Matt wrote:
::::::
::::::
::::::: Hi All,
:::::::
::::::: I am a type II diabetic on Atkins. I have lost probably 40-50
::::::: pounds in the year I have been on the diet. I also feel great.
:::::::
::::::: However for the last 4 or 5 months, I have been stalling. I am
::::::: eating less than 30 carbs a day and exercising as I have since
::::::: day one. It seems I lost most of my weight easily in the first
::::::: few months. I have another 110-130 to go. My HbA1c has always
::::::: been in the mid 5's and my doctor is very pleased with my
::::::: glucose control with diet and (later) exercise alone.
:::::::
::::::: When I saw my doctor today and asked her about stalling, she
::::::: told me she would test my insulin levels. Because has seen low
::::::: carb dieters run into long stalls and slow loss because of
::::::: higher insulin levels EVEN if they have good HbA1c AND good
::::::: fasting glucose (mines in the upper 80's usually). I have
::::::: always struggled to loose weight.
:::::::
::::::: Questions:
:::::::
::::::: Does the above sound reasonable (good blood sugar control, but
::::::: high insulin levels)? And could this be my problem?
:::::::
::::::: Also, I tried Glucophage when I was initially diagnosed with
::::::: Diabetes. I could *NOT* tolerate this medication. I tried it
::::::: four 3-4 weeks and it punished my digestive system. However it
::::::: was an excellent motivator to eat right and exercise.
:::::::
::::::: So, my doctor told me that if my insulin levels were high I
::::::: could go on Avandia to help lower insulin levels. She initially
::::::: recommended Glucophage and also mentioned Glucophage XR, but I
::::::: am nervous about considering either because of my very bad
::::::: Glucophage experience. So she suggested Avaindia. Yet, I read
::::::: on Atkins sight that Avandia can cause stall's!
:::::::
::::::: So, one more question: If my insulin level is high (and that
::::::: could cause the above stall/loss problems), should I try the
::::::: Avandia?
:::::::
::::::: Thanks for reading and any advice you can give! I need it.
::::::
::::::
:::::: Google here and the diabetes newsgroups for posts by
:::::: Jenny-the-bean. She had exactly this problem, as I recall.

Dolkian wrote:
:: Another supposition made without scientific facts.

There are plenty of scientific facts, but the ADA doesn't pay attention to
them, and neither do you since you simply pay attention to them without
thinking for yourself.

It so disappoints me when people run around talking about scientific facts
without the ability to use any discernment whatsoever. Such people are
easily manipulated and lead astray. But hey, that my OPINION and is one NOT
shared by the ADA. They just want to you blindly listen and follow.

::
:: BJ in Texas wrote:
::
::: Dolkian wrote:
:::
:::: I would never try a low carb diet if I were Diabetic.
:::: Diabetics need a well rounded diet that includes fruits and
:::: vegetables. Check out the ADA site (American Diabetic
:::: Assoc.) They have
:::: wonderful programs.
:::: Dokan
::::
:::
:::
::: Likely a good thing you are not a diabetic...
:::
::: BJ
::: DM Type II - 15years