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Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 5th, 2011, 11:30 AM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Hueyduck[_3_]
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Posts: 27
Default Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread

Hi everyone (hi me),

I'm going to poke the group with a low-carb topic to see if there is
still life somewhere in here

So,

I think many of you make the "flax meal foccacia bread".
I never recall why I never make more that what I do, and each time, I
recall the reaseon when eating it:
I'm not so found of the ammonia smell. You know, the smell that you get
when too much egg encounters too much baking powder. Yerk....

So, is there a trick to avoid this? I wan't believe that all the people
who love this recipie do not feel the dead fish fragrance (I'm
exagerating, but it gets a good deal of concentration not to focus on it).

THx for your advice,

Huey
  #2  
Old April 5th, 2011, 02:09 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Bill O'Meally
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Posts: 27
Default Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread

On 2011-04-05 05:30:52 -0500, Hueyduck said:

Hi everyone (hi me),

I'm going to poke the group with a low-carb topic to see if there is
still life somewhere in here

So,

I think many of you make the "flax meal foccacia bread".
I never recall why I never make more that what I do, and each time, I
recall the reaseon when eating it:
I'm not so found of the ammonia smell. You know, the smell that you get
when too much egg encounters too much baking powder. Yerk....

So, is there a trick to avoid this? I wan't believe that all the people
who love this recipie do not feel the dead fish fragrance (I'm
exagerating, but it gets a good deal of concentration not to focus on
it).

THx for your advice,


I've never noticed that particular aroma, but perhaps that is because I
modified the recipe almost from the start. I did not like the texture
the first time I made it, so I substituted some wheat protein isolate
for some of the flax meal. This added protein allowed me to cut back on
the eggs. Here's the recipe with my changes.

[] = My changes. The WPI makes for a more glutinous, breadlike texture,
and adds a "wheaty" flavor, without increasing the carb count.Â*The
added proteinÂ*also decreased the number of eggs required. Curiously, I
diod not have to adjust the liquids.
Â*
Ingredients:
• 2 cups flax seed mealÂ* [1 3/4 c. flax seed meal + 1/4 c Wheat
Protein Isolate]
• 1 Tablespoon baking powder
• 1 teaspoon salt
• 1-2 Tablespoons sugar equivalent from artificial sweetener [Use
liquid Splenda]
• 5 beaten eggs [4 beaten eggs]
• 1/2 cup water
• 1/3 cup oil

Preparation:
Preheat oven to 350 F. Prepare pan (a 10X15 pan with sides works best)
with oiled parchment paper or a silicone mat.

1) Mix dry ingredients well -- a whisk works well.

2) Add wet to dry, and combine well. Make sure there aren't obvious
strings of egg white hanging out in the batter.

3) Let batter set for 2 to 3 minutes to thicken up some (leave it too
long and it gets past the point where it's easy to spread.) ["Knead"
with whisk to increase gluten formation]

4) Pour batter onto pan. Because it's going to tend to mound in the
middle, you'll get a more even thickness if you spread it away from the
center somewhat, in roughly a rectangle an inch or two from the sides
of the pan (you can go all the way to the edge, but it will be thinner).

5) Bake for about 20 [25-30] minutes , until it springs back when you
touch the top and/or is visibly browning even more than flax already
is. [Consider increasing temp to 375 F to improve browning]

6) Cool and cut into whatever size slices you want. You don't need a
sharp knife; I usually just cut it with a spatula.
Nutritional Information: Each of 12 servings has less than a gram of
effective carbohydrate (.7 grams to be exact) plus 5 grams fiber, 6
grams protein, and 185 calories.
HTH!
--
Bill O'Meally
"Wise Fool" -- Gandalf, _The Two Towers_
(The Wise will remove 'se' to reach me. The Foolish will not!)

  #3  
Old April 5th, 2011, 02:40 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Hueyduck[_3_]
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Posts: 27
Default Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread

Bill O'Meally a écrit :
On 2011-04-05 05:30:52 -0500, Hueyduck said:




I've never noticed that particular aroma, but perhaps that is because I
modified the recipe almost from the start.

-
I don't think this is related.
I get the same flavour whenever I have too much egg along with too much
baking powder. But here, they are quite essential, so I don't know wich
one to cut.
-
I did not like the texture
the first time I made it, so I substituted some wheat protein isolate
for some of the flax meal. This added protein allowed me to cut back on
the eggs. Here's the recipe with my changes.

-
Isn't wheat protein simply... gluten? )
In that case, I have some, and I might try your recipie.


[] = My changes. The WPI makes for a more glutinous, breadlike texture,
and adds a "wheaty" flavor, without increasing the carb count. The added
protein also decreased the number of eggs required. Curiously, I diod
not have to adjust the liquids.

Strange point, the liquids one.
I will try your recipie and tell you if it helped or not.

Ingredients:

(...)

• 1-2 Tablespoons sugar equivalent from artificial sweetener
[Use liquid Splenda]


did you find that this ingredient was really usefull? I remember the
first time I tried this recipie, I did'nt like the sweetness that much.

• 1/3 cup oil


out of curiosity, wich one do you use?
I tried refined canola (not the raw organic stuff, wich couldnot be
cooked, but the refined canola oil, wich supports 180°C/350°F without a
problem.

I think I'll try olive oil and, in another batch, "cleared" butter (I
don't know the proper english term: I want to talk about the butter from
wich the protein and water has been removed)

Thanks for your answer.

Huey
  #4  
Old April 5th, 2011, 03:52 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Doug Freyburger
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Posts: 1,866
Default Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread

Hueyduck wrote:
Bill O'Meally a écrit :

• 1/3 cup oil


out of curiosity, wich one do you use?
I tried refined canola (not the raw organic stuff, wich couldnot be
cooked, but the refined canola oil, wich supports 180°C/350°F without a
problem.


That's what I thought of in your original post. On foodie groups there
is occasional discussion of tasting differences that appear to be
genetic. The majority of the popular find canola oil very close to
flavorless. There is a sizable minority who find canola oil to have a
flavor or aftertaste that they describe as "fishy" or "rancide". Every
so often one of them uses the word ammonia. My best guess is you are in
the group that has the gene that makes canola oil taste
fishy/rancid/ammonia.

If you recently started using canola and this is the first time you've
used so much of it think back to any slightly off flavors you've gotten
from using it. There's little down side to not using canola oil any
more. It's cheap but so is peanut oil, corn oil and "vegitable oil"
which is usually soy oil.

I think I'll try olive oil and, in another batch, "cleared" butter (I
don't know the proper english term: I want to talk about the butter from
wich the protein and water has been removed)


Agreed. Using other oils, especially ones known for good but subtle
flavors, is a good plan for you at this point.

The terms are "clarified" butter or ghee.

I suggest switching to another oil in this recipe then in a couple of
months making something else with lots of canola and see if that also
has the fishy/rancid/ammonia flavor. If it does celebrate the fact that
canola oil is cheap by feeding it to the soil out in your garden or just
trash it.

Temperature seems to matter a lot for the people who report that flavor
from canola. Cold uses have far less of it. Cooked uses intensify it
all the way up to the smoke point when they report it as very nasty.

There are several common foods where genetics determine if you can taste
them. I find avocados flavorless green crayons. I don't mind them I
just don't get the point why folks bother eating something flavorless.
My wife loves them. The answer to my puzzlement is those folks don't
find them flavorless. I think asparagus is delicious and the smell is
extremely obvious in my urine within an hour of eating them. I know
folks who think asparagus is nearly flavorless and they can't smell it
later. I find paprika not hot. I remember one time years ago I had a
friend over at dinner when I made a stew that I colored with paprika
because I liked the tiny little flavor in addition to the nice color.
It was like I was trying to blow his head off when my friend tasted the
first bite. He told me folks wtih at least one quarter Hungarian blood
find paprika hot.

My wife and I are in the no flavor school for canola oil. My
mother-in-law was in the rancid school for canola. She complained
about it so we stopped using it. Once she died we switched back to
using it again.
  #5  
Old April 5th, 2011, 03:58 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Doug Freyburger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,866
Default Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread

Hueyduck wrote:
Bill O'Meally a écrit :

I did not like the texture
the first time I made it, so I substituted some wheat protein isolate
for some of the flax meal. This added protein allowed me to cut back on
the eggs. Here's the recipe with my changes.

-
Isn't wheat protein simply... gluten? )
In that case, I have some, and I might try your recipie.


Products with wheat protein vary from "protein isolate" that's as close
to 100% as inexpensive refinement methods can get it, down to "high
protein flour" that is milled to increase the parts of the seed that
have the protein.

When milling wheat one option is to separate it into a high protein part
and a low protein part. The low protein part is "cake flour" or "pastry
flour" that bakes up more fluffy so it gets used in deserts. The high
protein part still has a low percentage of protein compared to isolate.
It's used in baking to make bread because of its higher relative gluten
content.

Anyways, since the flax is there to add fiber and we're talking a
protein substitute for the flour, a wide range of products are likely to
work to produce an okay bread.
  #6  
Old April 5th, 2011, 04:51 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Marengo
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Posts: 144
Default Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread

On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:52:16 +0000 (UTC), Doug Freyburger
wrote:

There are several common foods where genetics determine if you can taste
them. I find avocados flavorless green crayons. I don't mind them I
just don't get the point why folks bother eating something flavorless.
My wife loves them. The answer to my puzzlement is those folks don't
find them flavorless. I think asparagus is delicious and the smell is
extremely obvious in my urine within an hour of eating them. I know
folks who think asparagus is nearly flavorless and they can't smell it
later.


I have the "asparagus gene"too. To me it has a rich flavor and when
I eat asparagus it makes my urine smell very strong. People used to
tell me I was crazy when I'd mention it, and it was only a few years
ago that I found out it was genetic and that only a certain % of the
population has it.
---
Peter
  #7  
Old April 5th, 2011, 05:47 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Hueyduck[_3_]
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Posts: 27
Default Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread

Doug Freyburger a écrit :
Hueyduck wrote:
Bill O'Meally a écrit :

• 1/3 cup oil

out of curiosity, wich one do you use?
I tried refined canola (not the raw organic stuff, wich couldnot be
cooked, but the refined canola oil, wich supports 180°C/350°F without a
problem.


That's what I thought of in your original post. On foodie groups there
is occasional discussion of tasting differences that appear to be
genetic. The majority of the popular find canola oil very close to
flavorless. There is a sizable minority who find canola oil to have a
flavor or aftertaste that they describe as "fishy" or "rancide". Every
so often one of them uses the word ammonia. My best guess is you are in
the group that has the gene that makes canola oil taste
fishy/rancid/ammonia.

-
It could be but it is not what I'm bothered with The smell was the
same with sunflower oil when I first made the recipie quite a long time
ago).
And btw: the fishy I can really identify this "egg+baking powder"
reaction smell. Btw, fish scented canola oil should not be eaten (for
either who can smell it or not). I understand that some may be more
sensible to this scent, but there is no eatable oil with a rancid smell.
ANd to make rancid oil, you only have to put canola oil into permanent
lightning. I involuntarily tested it for you and it works: rancid oil in
a few month. Since I keep the bottles in a cabinet, the rancid smell
never hits before I finish the bottle.

And I don't think I'm in the fishy-smelling group for canola, because I
often use it to cook without any problem. I also made my "fried green
string beans" with canola oil, and it is quite good. I just have to
watch the temperature so that it doesn't go further than 180°C/350°F. I
also can have raw canola oil (the one that smells the most, wich is
quite thick and golden colored) with no problem I use it in gratted
carrots, along with olive oil, salt and raw onion rings, all mixed
mell= very good alternative to gratted the classical "carrots+vinaigrette".
-

If you recently started using canola and this is the first time you've
used so much of it think back to any slightly off flavors you've gotten
from using it. There's little down side to not using canola oil any
more. It's cheap but so is peanut oil, corn oil and "vegitable oil"
which is usually soy oil.
-

Omega 3 content is not negligible, even in the refined sort.
It was the reason I used it. Otherwise, I would have gone "olive".
-
I think I'll try olive oil and, in another batch, "cleared" butter (I
don't know the proper english term: I want to talk about the butter from
wich the protein and water has been removed)


Agreed. Using other oils, especially ones known for good but subtle
flavors, is a good plan for you at this point.

The terms are "clarified" butter or ghee.

"Ghee"! I Knew that, thanks.
I just discovered how easy it is to make, and it is very nice to be able
to cook butter without the fear of having the unpleasant "burnt butter"
smell as soon as the preparation gets too hot.

-

There are several common foods where genetics determine if you can taste
them. I find avocados flavorless green crayons. I don't mind them I
just don't get the point why folks bother eating something flavorless.

-
The taste is not very strong, but I love it. Without the taste, I would
not eat them.
-
I remember one time years ago I had a
friend over at dinner when I made a stew that I colored with paprika
because I liked the tiny little flavor in addition to the nice color.
It was like I was trying to blow his head off when my friend tasted the
first bite. He told me folks wtih at least one quarter Hungarian blood
find paprika hot.

-
Really, I'm discovering this genetic stuff. I'm like you on this one:
paprika is not hot at all, to me.
-

My wife and I are in the no flavor school for canola oil. My
mother-in-law was in the rancid school for canola. She complained
about it so we stopped using it. Once she died we switched back to
using it again.

-
There's one thing with canola oil I can say: a canola oil that has
smoked smells like the devil trying to make donuts for the first time.
It happened to me once and the smell is... not very strong, but so
baaaad. It smels like cancer. That's what I say when I smell burned
teflon, for instance.


Thx for your remarks, Doug.

Huey
  #8  
Old April 5th, 2011, 06:37 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
FOB
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Posts: 231
Default Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread

There's a lot of positive talk about coconut oil, it has a nice tolerance
for high temperatures. In cold weather it is a solid, in the summer it will
be a liquid if left out of the fridge. I find it much less obvious in
things than the taste of olive oil. I have been using it in cooking.

On the asparagus, I think it tastes great but have never observed the urine
smell from it.

Paprika, there are different kinds of paprika, hot and not hot. I don't
doubt the remarks about differences in tasting it but there also is a
difference in typesl.



  #9  
Old April 5th, 2011, 07:26 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Billy[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 215
Default Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread

In article ,
Hueyduck wrote:

Hi everyone (hi me),

I'm going to poke the group with a low-carb topic to see if there is
still life somewhere in here

So,

I think many of you make the "flax meal foccacia bread".
I never recall why I never make more that what I do, and each time, I
recall the reaseon when eating it:
I'm not so found of the ammonia smell. You know, the smell that you get
when too much egg encounters too much baking powder. Yerk....

So, is there a trick to avoid this? I wan't believe that all the people
who love this recipie do not feel the dead fish fragrance (I'm
exagerating, but it gets a good deal of concentration not to focus on it).

THx for your advice,

Huey


Just a wild guess, Huey, but the proteins are amino acids that contain
NH3 (ammonia) groups. These might be dislodged by the carbonate (CO3).

Below, Bill O'Meally suggests replacing some of the flax meal with wheat
protein, but ostensibly flax seeds (meal) are used to raise omega-3
proteins. (If it is for lowering cholesterol you'd be better off with
oat bran or psyllium seed husks.) It is presumed that hunter-gatherers
had a 1 to 1 ratio of omega-3s and omega-6s, whereas today it is about 1
to 10. This probably isn't a big deal because the oxygen and the heat
will destroy most of the omega-3s anyway.
----

The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals
by Michael Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...als/dp/0143038
583/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1
(Available at a library near you, as long as they remain open.)

pg. 268 - 269
One of the most important yet unnoticed changes to the human diet in
modern times has been in the ratio between omega-3 and omega-6, the
other essential fatty acid in our food. Omega-6 is produced in the seeds
of plants; omega-3 in the leaves. As the name indicates, both kinds of
fat are essential, but problems arise when they fall out of balance. (In
fact, there's research to suggest that the ratio of these fats in our
diet may be more important than the amounts.) Too high a ratio of
omega-6 to omega-3 can contribute to heart disease, probably because
omega-6 helps blood clot, while omega-3 helps it flow. (Omega-6 is an
inflammatory; omega-3 an anti-innammatory.) As our diet‹and the diet of
the animals we eat‹shifted from one based on green plants to one based
on grain (from grass to corn), the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3 has gone
from roughly one to one (in the diet of hunter-gatherers) to more than
ten to one. (The process of hydrogenadng oil also eliminates omega-3s.)
We may one day come to regard this shift as one of the most deleterious
dietary changes wrought by the industrialization of our food chain. It
was a change we never noticed, since the importance of omega-3s was not
recognized until the 1970s. As in the case of our imperfect knowledge of
soil, the limits of our knowledge of nutrition have obscured what the
industrialization of the food chain is doing to our health. But changes
in the composition of fats in our diet may account for many of the
diseases of civilization‹cardiac, diabetes, obesity, etc.‹that have long
been linked to modern eating habits, as well as for learning and
behavioral problems in children and depression in adults.

Research in this area promises to turn a lot of conventional nutritional
thinking on its head. It suggests, for example, that the problem with
eating red meat‹long associated with cardiovascular disease‹ may owe
less to the animal in question than to that animal's diet. (This might
explain why there are hunter-gatherer populations today who eat far more
red meat than we do without suffering the cardiovascular consequences.)
These days farmed salmon are being fed like feedlot cattle, on grain,
with the predictable result that their omega- 3 levels fall well below
those of wild fish. (Wild fish have especially high levels of omega-3
because the fat concentrates as it moves up the food chain from the
algae and phytoplankton that create it.) Conventional nutritional wisdom
holds that salmon is automatically better for us than beef, but that
judgment assumes the beef has been grain fed and the salmon krill fed;
if the steer is fattened on grass and the salmon on grain, we might
actually be better off eating the beef. (Grass-finished beef has a
two-to-one ratio of omega-6 to -3 compared to more than ten to one in
corn-fed beef.) The species of animal you eat may matter less than what
the animal you're eating has itself eaten.
----


Bush's 3rd term: Obama


If you like weekends (8 hr./day & 40 hr./week), then thank a labor union.
They paid for it in blood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair

Jobs not Wars
===
--
- Billy
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower, 16 April 1953
http://wn.com/black_panther_party
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug

  #10  
Old April 5th, 2011, 07:50 PM posted to alt.support.diet.low-carb
Hueyduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 27
Default Ammonia smell in flax meal foccacia bread

Billy a écrit :
In article ,



Just a wild guess, Huey, but the proteins are amino acids that contain
NH3 (ammonia) groups. These might be dislodged by the carbonate (CO3).

-
True.
And since proteins in eggs are in the white part, I might try and
withdraw a whit or two. Less baking powder too. And probably, I will add
a tablespoon of gluten to make up for the egg whites ( a bit like you
took back one egg and added wheat protein).
-

Below, Bill O'Meally suggests replacing some of the flax meal with wheat
protein, but ostensibly flax seeds (meal) are used to raise omega-3
proteins. (If it is for lowering cholesterol you'd be better off with
oat bran or psyllium seed husks.)

-
Well, it's fatty, it's full of omega 3, and full of fiber.
Can't be bad for cholesterol ratio, right? I don't aim for a particular
benefit, though. Only to have a recipie that fits a LC diet.
-
It is presumed that hunter-gatherers
had a 1 to 1 ratio of omega-3s and omega-6s, whereas today it is about 1
to 10. This probably isn't a big deal because the oxygen and the heat
will destroy most of the omega-3s anyway.

-
Surprisingly, this is not true at all.
He
http://www.flaxhealth.com/storage.htm

Well, it's on the "golden valley" site. True. But they quote sources and
scientific ones too.
But I must admit I was quite surprised. to make it short:
"baking ha(s) no effect on the bioavailability of flaxseed fatty acids."
Great, right?

----

The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals
by Michael Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...als/dp/0143038
583/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1
(Available at a library near you, as long as they remain open.)

pg. 268 - 269

(...)

(Omega-6 is an
inflammatory; omega-3 an anti-innammatory.)

-
I read that recently.
This is quite a piece of information, I think.
For instance, it could lead people with arthritis to avoid sunflower oil
wich is all omega6.
And how many inflamatory disease are being fed by sunflower oil, right now?
(well I guess some could argue that omega 3 could be dangerous to people
with auto-imune disease...)

(...)

But changes
in the composition of fats in our diet may account for many of the
diseases of civilization‹cardiac, diabetes, obesity, etc.‹that have long
been linked to modern eating habits, as well as for learning and
behavioral problems in children and depression in adults.

-
I instinctively believe this, really.



Bush's 3rd term: Obama


But are any of them Low-Carb enough to be on topic? ;-))




Have a nice evening.


HUey
 




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