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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
Here is a video that might be of some interest to members of this group. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZ...eature=related The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk. More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment and the ADA. |
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
In article ,
James Warren wrote: The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?) Here is a video that might be of some interest to members of this group. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZ...eature=related The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk. More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment and the ADA. Not likely. Aside from fiscal considerations the sheer shock of knowing that you have disabled or even killed people with you dietary and medical advice precludes most of the people involved from seeing the truth. This goes triple for the bariatric surgery enthusiasts, who abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet. See Ignaz Semmelweis. -- This space unintentionally left blank. |
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On 5/25/2012 1:51 PM, Walter Bushell wrote:
In articleKpidnVXwmsfEKSLSnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@giganews. com, James wrote: The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?) Here is a video that might be of some interest to members of this group. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZ...eature=related The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk. More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment and the ADA. Not likely. Don't give up so easily. It is worth a try. Aside from fiscal considerations the sheer shock of knowing that you have disabled or even killed people with you dietary and medical advice precludes most of the people involved from seeing the truth. This goes triple for the bariatric surgery enthusiasts, who At the end of the video he says that the ADA has begrudgingly sanctioned LC diets if people can't comply with LF diets saying compliance trumps diet. abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet. See Ignaz Semmelweis. The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1. |
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
James Warren wrote:
Walter Bushell wrote: James wrote: The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?) ... The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk. No surprise to any of us here. More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment and the ADA. Not likely. Don't give up so easily. It is worth a try. The way to sway the medical establishment is to teach low carb in medical school. That has started to happen. Aside from fiscal considerations the sheer shock of knowing that you have disabled or even killed people with you dietary and medical advice precludes most of the people involved from seeing the truth. This goes triple for the bariatric surgery enthusiasts, who Think of the fear of medical malpractice. The evidence has been overwhelming for decades. At the end of the video he says that the ADA has begrudgingly sanctioned LC diets if people can't comply with LF diets saying compliance trumps diet. Compliance is vastly important. Any plan that drives people off it is a failed plan. A percentage of the population does fine on low fat but low fat drives very many off. When I tried low fat I was hungry constantly until I relented. But there is more to it than compliance. There is the long term results. Poor compliance to low fat is one of the starting points that pointed Dr Atkins to low carb. He saw many of his heart patients fail to comply even though it would cost them their lives to fail. Then he started noticing that the few who did/could comply got worse results after 6+ month on low fat. abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet. The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1. Which is a cause and which is the effect? It is certain that bariatric surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory. What if those same people had tried total adherence to low carb before surgery? I know we can't know that. It's like saying everyone in a concentration camp loses weight. It's true but it's not relevant to dieting. There should be suspicions though. The diet shortly after bariatric surgery, doesn't it remind you of the test cases in the original fat fast experiment? |
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On 5/25/2012 3:56 PM, Doug Freyburger wrote:
James Warren wrote: Walter Bushell wrote: James wrote: The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?) ... The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk. No surprise to any of us here. More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment and the ADA. Not likely. Don't give up so easily. It is worth a try. The way to sway the medical establishment is to teach low carb in medical school. That has started to happen. Aside from fiscal considerations the sheer shock of knowing that you have disabled or even killed people with you dietary and medical advice precludes most of the people involved from seeing the truth. This goes triple for the bariatric surgery enthusiasts, who Think of the fear of medical malpractice. The evidence has been overwhelming for decades. At the end of the video he says that the ADA has begrudgingly sanctioned LC diets if people can't comply with LF diets saying compliance trumps diet. Compliance is vastly important. Any plan that drives people off it is a failed plan. A percentage of the population does fine on low fat but low fat drives very many off. When I tried low fat I was hungry constantly until I relented. But there is more to it than compliance. There is the long term results. Poor compliance to low fat is one of the starting points that pointed Dr Atkins to low carb. He saw many of his heart patients fail to comply even though it would cost them their lives to fail. Then he started noticing that the few who did/could comply got worse results after 6+ month on low fat. abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet. The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1. Which is a cause and which is the effect? It is certain that bariatric surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory. Why? I hadn't heard that at all. The change in hormones is immediate presumably because most of the stomach is bypassed and is not stimulated by eating. What if those same people had tried total adherence to low carb before surgery? I know we can't know that. It's like saying everyone in a concentration camp loses weight. It's true but it's not relevant to dieting. There should be suspicions though. The diet shortly after bariatric surgery, doesn't it remind you of the test cases in the original fat fast experiment? Again, what diet change is mandated by the surgery? Surgery is much more drastic an intervention than diet change. |
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
James Warren wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote: James Warren wrote: Walter Bushell wrote: James wrote: abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet. The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1. Which is a cause and which is the effect? It is certain that bariatric surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory. Why? I hadn't heard that at all. The change in hormones is immediate presumably because most of the stomach is bypassed and is not stimulated by eating. The not eating part is caused by the band. It can as easily be caused by doing the fat fast. That should trigger the same metabolic changes. What if those same people had tried total adherence to low carb before surgery? I know we can't know that. It's like saying everyone in a concentration camp loses weight. It's true but it's not relevant to dieting. There should be suspicions though. The diet shortly after bariatric surgery, doesn't it remind you of the test cases in the original fat fast experiment? Again, what diet change is mandated by the surgery? Surgery is much more drastic an intervention than diet change. Before surgery there is no pain when eating. After surgery if you eat more than a certain amount there is severe pain and vomitting. Much worse pain than the hunger. People on the fat fast report little hunger. Same as folks who have had surgery. One is voluntary the other forced. |
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On May 25, 3:03*pm, James Warren wrote:
On 5/25/2012 3:56 PM, Doug Freyburger wrote: James Warren wrote: Walter Bushell wrote: * *James * wrote: The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?) ... The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk. No surprise to any of us here. More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment and the ADA. Not likely. Don't give up so easily. It is worth a try. The way to sway the medical establishment is to teach low carb in medical school. *That has started to happen. Aside from fiscal considerations the sheer shock of knowing that you have disabled or even killed people with you dietary and medical advice precludes most of the people involved from seeing the truth. This goes triple for the bariatric surgery enthusiasts, who Think of the fear of medical malpractice. *The evidence has been overwhelming for decades. At the end of the video he says that the ADA has begrudgingly sanctioned LC diets if people can't comply with LF diets saying compliance trumps diet. Compliance is vastly important. *Any plan that drives people off it is a failed plan. *A percentage of the population does fine on low fat but low fat drives very many off. *When I tried low fat I was hungry constantly until I relented. But there is more to it than compliance. *There is the long term results. Poor compliance to low fat is one of the starting points that pointed Dr Atkins to low carb. He saw many of his heart patients fail to comply even though it would cost them their lives to fail. Then he started noticing that the few who did/could comply got worse results after 6+ month on low fat. abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet. The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1. Which is a cause and which is the effect? *It is certain that bariatric surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory. Why? I hadn't heard that at all. The change in hormones is immediate presumably because most of the stomach is bypassed and is not stimulated by eating. I agree. It's apparent that a lot more is going on here than bariatric surgery forcing a LC diet. There have been studies that show that within a day or two of the surgery being performed people who were diabetic revert to normal and no longer need medication. Research is going on right now to determine exactly why as it could lead to a major breakthrough in how to treat diabetes. As you suggest, one prime candidate is the effect it has on hormones. What if those same people had tried total adherence to low carb before surgery? I know we can't know that. *It's like saying everyone in a concentration camp loses weight. *It's true but it's not relevant to dieting. There should be suspicions though. *The diet shortly after bariatric surgery, doesn't it remind you of the test cases in the original fat fast experiment? Again, what diet change is mandated by the surgery? There are definitely guidelines for what is suggested for people to eat long term following the surgery. But I'm not aware of anything that forces people to eat LC. And even if there are recommendations, we all know how well those work. Most people are going to revert to eating what they like as long as it doesn't make them feel ill. And again, I see nothing that says those with surgery will be forced to eat LC due to the surgery. In fact, some of what I've seen argues exactly the opposite, ie that some vegs high in fiber, too much fat, may cause problems for them. |
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On May 25, 5:15*pm, Doug Freyburger wrote:
James Warren wrote: Doug Freyburger wrote: James Warren wrote: Walter Bushell wrote: * *James * wrote: abhor low carb prior to the surgery and mandate it afterwards. Perhaps bariatric surgery "works" by enforcing a low carb diet. The way I understand it bariatric surgery works by causing drastic changes in several hormone levels like ghrelin, PYY and GLP-1. Which is a cause and which is the effect? *It is certain that bariatric surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory. Why? I hadn't heard that at all. The change in hormones is immediate presumably because most of the stomach is bypassed and is not stimulated by eating. The not eating part is caused by the band. *It can as easily be caused by doing the fat fast. *That should trigger the same metabolic changes. So you say, without any evidence whatever to support it. Have you not seen the reports and research going on to understand the mystifying changes scene in most of these patients within days of the surgery. Like the complete reversal of diabetes? What if those same people had tried total adherence to low carb before surgery? I know we can't know that. *It's like saying everyone in a concentration camp loses weight. *It's true but it's not relevant to dieting. There should be suspicions though. *The diet shortly after bariatric surgery, doesn't it remind you of the test cases in the original fat fast experiment? Again, what diet change is mandated by the surgery? Surgery is much more drastic an intervention than diet change. Before surgery there is no pain when eating. *After surgery if you eat more than a certain amount there is severe pain and vomitting. *Much worse pain than the hunger. People on the fat fast report little hunger. *Same as folks who have had surgery. *One is voluntary the other forced.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - It's ridiculous to compare an Atkins fat fast to the diet of bariatric patients. They are told to basicly ease back to a normal, healthy diet provided it doesn't cause them any issues. I see nothing that says that diet is anything at all like a fat fast. And we know most people are going to revert to eating whatever they feel like and can tolerate. Fat fast? I think not. |
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On May 25, 12:33*pm, James Warren wrote:
The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?) Here is a video that might be of some interest to members of this group. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZ...eature=related The interesting thing is that low carb is never worse than any other diet on weight loss or any measure of risk. More studies of this kind might sway the medical establishment and the ADA. Great find. Best thing I've seen here in a while. Some of my thoughts.... First, it's important to recognize that the goal here was not to even try to have strict adherence to any of the diets. It was oriented to see what happens with those given a book, class room instruction, 8 weeks of follow-up, etc, then left alone to follow the diets for a year. More like what happens in the real world and a perfectly valid approach. Even at 8 weeks, while still being guided, the Atkins group was clearly not doing Atkins. Carbs accounted for 17% of their caloric intake at 8 weeks. If we assume a diet of 2000 calories, that would be 340 cals from carb, or 85g. If they were doing Atkins by the book, they should be at no more than 50g of carbs at 8 weeks. So, I'd say from the start they were doing lower carb, but not specifically adhering to Atkins. And at 1 year, their carb intake was double that, so they were taking in about 170g of carb. Obviously lower carb than a typical diet, but again, not Atkins. That's the other thing we already knew, which is that regardless of diet, most people wind up going back to their old ways. You can see it in the charts where weight loss peaked right about at 8 weeks, then started a slow climb back up for the rest of the year. That was true for all the diets, though LC was better. But I have to believe if it were continued for another year or two the reversion rate would just continue to increase toward 100%. That is the really discouraging part. Despite the health benefits that can be seen, most people just can't change their ways. It's clear to me that the obesity epidemic isn't going to be solved until we have some miracle drug. |
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The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)
On Sun, 27 May 2012 08:06:19 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: [...] Which is a cause and which is the effect? *It is certain that bariatric surgery makes total adherence to low carb mandatory. Why? I hadn't heard that at all. The change in hormones is immediate presumably because most of the stomach is bypassed and is not stimulated by eating. The not eating part is caused by the band. *It can as easily be caused by doing the fat fast. *That should trigger the same metabolic changes. So you say, without any evidence whatever to support it. Have you not seen the reports and research going on to understand the mystifying changes scene in most of these patients within days of the surgery. Like the complete reversal of diabetes? Or the adverse effects: Adverse effects Complications from weight loss surgery are frequent. A study of insurance claims of 2522 who had undergone bariatric surgery showed 21.9% complications during the initial hospital stay and a total of 40% risk of complications in the subsequent six months. This was more common in those over 40 and led to an increased health care expenditure. Common problems were gastric dumping syndrome in about 20% (bloating and diarrhea after eating, necessitating small meals or medication), leaks at the surgical site (12%), incisional hernia (7%), infections (6%) and pneumonia (4%). Mortality was 0.2%.[31] As the rate of complications appears to be reduced when the procedure is performed by an experienced surgeon, guidelines recommend that surgery be performed in dedicated or experienced units.[4] Metabolic bone disease manifesting as osteopenia and secondary hyperparathyroidism have been reported after Roux-en-Y gastric bypass surgery due to reduced calcium absorption. The highest concentration of calcium transporters is in the duodenum. Since the ingested food will not pass through the duodenum after a bypass procedure, calcium levels in the blood may decrease, causing secondary hyperparathyroidism, increase in bone turnover, and a decrease in bone mass. Increased risk of fracture has also been linked to bariatric surgery.[32] Rapid weight loss after obesity surgery can contribute to the development of gallstones as well by increasing the lithogenicity of bile. Adverse effects on the kidneys have been studied. Hyperoxaluria that can potentially lead to oxalate nephropathy and irreversible renal failure is the most significant abnormality seen on urine chemistry studies.Rhabdomyolysis leading to acute kidney injury, and impaired renal handling of acid and base has been reported after bypass surgery.[citation needed] Nutritional derangements due to deficiencies of micronutrients like iron, vitamin B12, fat soluble vitamins, thiamine, and folate are especially common after malabsorptive bariatric procedures. Seizures due to hyperinsulinemic hypoglycemia have been reported. Inappropriate insulin secretion secondary to islet cell hyperplasia, called pancreatic nesidioblastosis, might explain this syndrome.[33 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bariatric_surgery I think just about anything is worth a try, before considering bariatric surgery. Even the fat fast (under a doctor's supervision). [...] Before surgery there is no pain when eating. *After surgery if you eat more than a certain amount there is severe pain and vomitting. *Much worse pain than the hunger. People on the fat fast report little hunger. *Same as folks who have had surgery. *One is voluntary the other forced.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - It's ridiculous to compare an Atkins fat fast to the diet of bariatric patients. They are told to basicly ease back to a normal, healthy diet provided it doesn't cause them any issues. It basically requires a high protein diet. "The post-bariatric surgery diet is often conducted in phases to give you body time to heal and adjust to a new, smaller stomach. In the initial days after your surgery, you will have liquids only, including broth, juice, strained soup and protein drinks. This phase of your diet is very low, if not no-carbohydrate. As your stomach beings to heal, you can incorporate carbohydrate sources such as soft, blended fruits and vegetables. These will be secondary, however, to protein sources like egg whites and lean ground meats." http://www.livestrong.com/article/47...low-carb-diet/ I see nothing that says that diet is anything at all like a fat fast. That's not what Doug is saying. He's saying a fat fast can (for some people, at least) trigger the same metabolic changes that baraitric surgery (apparently) triggers. And it can. Even very low-carb diets can do that. So can other diets: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mar...b_1382236.html In short, and in my opinion, bariatric surgery should be only be considered after every other approach has failed. -- Dogman "I have approximate answers and possible beliefs in different degrees of certainty about different things, but I'm not absolutely sure of anything" - Richard Feynman |
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