Weight training

For those of you who weight train, do you exercise every day
with weights and just alternate the muscle groups. Or do
you exercise every other day with weights and maybe take a
walk or bike ride on alternate days. I've heard it's not
good to exercise the same muscles every day.

Marsha/Ohio

Marsha wrote:
For those of you who weight train, do you exercise every day with
weights and just alternate the muscle groups. Or do you exercise
every other day with weights and maybe take a walk or bike ride on
alternate days. I've heard it's not good to exercise the same
muscles every day.

Marsha/Ohio


I've been on fitness for 2 years now and I train 3 times a week.

On monday I train the legs (butt & thighs - inner, outer, leg-biceps,
front) and triceps (it's in the upper arm).
On wednesday the "torso type" muscles (stomach, back and breast muscles).
On friday the arms (biceps, wrists, without triceps - because you
shouldn't be training biceps and triceps at the same day).

I hope I didn't go too much technical into the convo.

Regarding food (important when weight training):
I raise my daily protein intake on the training days for 50g and drink
protein-shake (30g proteins) as the first meal after the work-out.
At the moment I'm consuming 100g protein per day (the rest to fill my
daily caloric target are fat calories), on the training days I add 50g
proteins extra (so I consume 150g p. on training days). That ratio is
calculated for ME, you should get your reccomended daily intake of
proteins calculated.

The aerobic (cardio) exercise (bike, running, etc...) is BAD for muscle
gain, and it can alter your weight loss by *ONLY* 15% IF training so
much that you're literally *burning your muscles* (more than 2 hours of
intensive training per DAY). Do I have to stress even more that most of
the increased weight loss will be from muscle and not fat tissue?
Anything less than intensive cardio is regarding weight loss simply not
effective. Diet is enough for weight loss, but you must gain muscles for
good looks, and that is something that aerobic training simply cannot do.

I don't have experience with woman training programs, and this is my
standpoint from my male perspective. I'm not a bodybuilder but a
bodystyler... the difference is that the builders are trying to be buff
and "big" while we, the stylers, give more importance on the tonality
and looks (aka: baywatch guys).

Hope I helped. As 90% of women are into bodystyling I think that there
should be no big differences between male and female training programs.

--
B-D_
Atkins since 11/24/03
199/189/165

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 02:10:04 +0100, B-D_ wrote:




I've been on fitness for 2 years now and I train 3 times a week.

On monday I train the legs (butt & thighs - inner, outer, leg-biceps,
front) and triceps (it's in the upper arm).
On wednesday the "torso type" muscles (stomach, back and breast muscles).
On friday the arms (biceps, wrists, without triceps - because you
shouldn't be training biceps and triceps at the same day).

So, you only train one muscle group once per week? How do you elicit
growth, or are you not after growth? Also, I've generally trained biceps
and triceps on the same day and have large arms, so I'm not sure that your
admonition is valid!

I hope I didn't go too much technical into the convo.

Regarding food (important when weight training):
I raise my daily protein intake on the training days for 50g and drink
protein-shake (30g proteins) as the first meal after the work-out.
At the moment I'm consuming 100g protein per day (the rest to fill my
daily caloric target are fat calories), on the training days I add 50g
proteins extra (so I consume 150g p. on training days). That ratio is
calculated for ME, you should get your reccomended daily intake of
proteins calculated.

The aerobic (cardio) exercise (bike, running, etc...) is BAD for muscle
gain, and it can alter your weight loss by *ONLY* 15% IF training so
much that you're literally *burning your muscles* (more than 2 hours of
intensive training per DAY). Do I have to stress even more that most of
the increased weight loss will be from muscle and not fat tissue?
Anything less than intensive cardio is regarding weight loss simply not
effective. Diet is enough for weight loss, but you must gain muscles for
good looks, and that is something that aerobic training simply cannot do.

If this is true, then how do the Tour de France competitors (who ride
nearly every day for 21-22 days straight for many hours a day) even have
muscles? I lost quite a bit of weight over this summer through bike
riding and I can assure you it wasn't muscle. Perhaps you're thinking
that aerobic training trains different muscle fibers (or uses different
muscle fibers or trains the same fibers differently)? For instance,
biking 2 hours isn't going to help you squat more weight (and vice
versa). Now, with THAT I agree.

I don't have experience with woman training programs, and this is my
standpoint from my male perspective. I'm not a bodybuilder but a
bodystyler... the difference is that the builders are trying to be buff
and "big" while we, the stylers, give more importance on the tonality
and looks (aka: baywatch guys).

Hope I helped. As 90% of women are into bodystyling I think that there
should be no big differences between male and female training programs.


It's generally hard for even women bodybuilders to get too buff. They
simply don't have the testosterone.

--
Bob M in CT remove 'x.' to reply

Bob M wrote:
:: On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 02:10:04 +0100, B-D_ wrote:
::
::
::::
:::
::: I've been on fitness for 2 years now and I train 3 times a week.
:::
::: On monday I train the legs (butt & thighs - inner, outer,
::: leg-biceps, front) and triceps (it's in the upper arm).
::: On wednesday the "torso type" muscles (stomach, back and breast
::: muscles). On friday the arms (biceps, wrists, without triceps -
::: because you shouldn't be training biceps and triceps at the same
::: day).
::
:: So, you only train one muscle group once per week? How do you elicit
:: growth, or are you not after growth?

Some people use a split routine in which one or several related muscle
groups are trained only once per week. However, those using such routines
really "bomb" those muscle groups during that one session. I used such a
routine for 3 months before switching to HST. Also, when I used that
routine I found I got really sore after each workout. Basically, the muscle
groups targetted in each workout effectively "detrain" before the next
workout. With HST, since you train each group each workout and 3 times a
week, but using fewer sets per workout but the same volume of effort (as the
split routine) over the entire week, you don't detrain and hence you don't
get sore.

Also, I've generally trained
:: biceps and triceps on the same day and have large arms, so I'm not
:: sure that your admonition is valid!

I'm certain it is not. You can train biceps and triceps on the same day.
However, on a split routine where you're say doing a push/pull/legs split,
it is better to work triceps on push days and biceps on pull days, since the
triceps are involved in pushing exercises done for the chest (as are the
front delts) and the biceps are involved in pulling exercises done for the
back. Many believe that it is not even necessary for most people to
specifically target triceps and biceps because they are relatively small
muscles and get sufficiently worked and stimulated via chest and back
exerices, respectively.

::
::: I hope I didn't go too much technical into the convo.
:::
::: Regarding food (important when weight training):
::: I raise my daily protein intake on the training days for 50g and
::: drink protein-shake (30g proteins) as the first meal after the
::: work-out.
::: At the moment I'm consuming 100g protein per day (the rest to fill
::: my daily caloric target are fat calories), on the training days I
::: add 50g proteins extra (so I consume 150g p. on training days).
::: That ratio is calculated for ME, you should get your reccomended
::: daily intake of proteins calculated.
:::
::: The aerobic (cardio) exercise (bike, running, etc...) is BAD for
::: muscle gain, and it can alter your weight loss by *ONLY* 15% IF
::: training so much that you're literally *burning your muscles* (more
::: than 2 hours of intensive training per DAY). Do I have to stress
::: even more that most of the increased weight loss will be from
::: muscle and not fat tissue? Anything less than intensive cardio is
::: regarding weight loss simply not effective. Diet is enough for
::: weight loss, but you must gain muscles for good looks, and that is
::: something that aerobic training simply cannot do.
::
:: If this is true, then how do the Tour de France competitors (who ride
:: nearly every day for 21-22 days straight for many hours a day) even
:: have muscles? I lost quite a bit of weight over this summer through
:: bike riding and I can assure you it wasn't muscle. Perhaps you're
:: thinking that aerobic training trains different muscle fibers (or
:: uses different muscle fibers or trains the same fibers differently)?
:: For instance, biking 2 hours isn't going to help you squat more
:: weight (and vice
:: versa). Now, with THAT I agree.

Well, I think things are getting confused here. Generally speaking, if
one's goal is to gain muscle mass, then one must eat above maintenance level
calories. Generally speaking, that is. Also, if one's goal is to lose fat,
then one must eat below maintenance level calories (note that exercise would
drive maintenance level calories upward). Those are general comments.
However, for someone who has not been weight training at all or for an
extended period of time, and assuming that person is very overweight,
experience has found that such people can effectively gain muscle mass and
lose fat at the same time, even while dieting and eating near or below
maintenance. This is bascially a one time free pass for someone who is out
of shape and has not training on a regular basis, and is an excellent reason
for such people to take up weight training. There is a big bonus. However,
once a person who was in this situation has been training for a while --
probably about 9 months to a year (I think it also depends on how overfat
someone is too), ime, this effect begins to wear off since the persons
muscles are used to consistent training and thus don't respond to stimuli as
easily. At this point, further gains in muscle mass require anabolic
conditions to exist within one's body, which means you need to be eating at
a surplus. If instead one is eating at a deficit, but also doing lots of
cardio, AND not getting sufficient protein, then muscle loss can occur.
Honestly, I don't think this is likely to happen to someone on Atkins or
another LC WOE. These WOEs are known to be muscle sparing since usually
sufficent protein is in the diet. However, someone on a LF WOE might have
issues if they didn't specifically ensure sufficient protein intake. But if
one does a ****load of cardio, eats LC and at a deficit, and doesn't get
sufficent protein, then one can lose muscle mass. In this case the person
would probably be losing weight really rapidly, too. Not good, imo.

In the case of a cyclist -- especially a pro, those guys generally aren't
trying to lose bodyfat so they can train for muscle leg strength (not size)
in winter and get some size gain as well (hey, even though these guys have
strong legs -- those muscles aren't really that big -- if they were, they'd
be poor at cycling because they'd weigh too much). More importantly, they
don't have to be eating at a deficit. Hence, they can avoid muscle loss.
Also, as Pat said, cycling will, to some extent, develop muscle mass in the
untrained cyclist. But those guys will not have really big leg muscles like
a pro bodybuilder.

Roger,
I used to train quite extensively and got sore each time as you said I
guess due to retraining. What is "HST" and could you give a brief
explanation and some possible sources for information. Please feel free
to email me personally as well. I will begin my weight training again
probably next week and would like to stay away from being sore.

Thanks,
Rick

262/239.5/195


Roger Zoul wrote:

Bob M wrote:
:: On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 02:10:04 +0100, B-D_ wrote:
::
::
::::
:::
::: I've been on fitness for 2 years now and I train 3 times a week.
:::
::: On monday I train the legs (butt & thighs - inner, outer,
::: leg-biceps, front) and triceps (it's in the upper arm).
::: On wednesday the "torso type" muscles (stomach, back and breast
::: muscles). On friday the arms (biceps, wrists, without triceps -
::: because you shouldn't be training biceps and triceps at the same
::: day).
::
:: So, you only train one muscle group once per week? How do you elicit
:: growth, or are you not after growth?

Some people use a split routine in which one or several related muscle
groups are trained only once per week. However, those using such routines
really "bomb" those muscle groups during that one session. I used such a
routine for 3 months before switching to HST. Also, when I used that
routine I found I got really sore after each workout. Basically, the muscle
groups targetted in each workout effectively "detrain" before the next
workout. With HST, since you train each group each workout and 3 times a
week, but using fewer sets per workout but the same volume of effort (as the
split routine) over the entire week, you don't detrain and hence you don't
get sore.

rickster wrote:
:: Roger,
:: I used to train quite extensively and got sore each time as you said
:: I
:: guess due to retraining. What is "HST" and could you give a brief
:: explanation and some possible sources for information. Please feel
:: free
:: to email me personally as well. I will begin my weight training
:: again probably next week and would like to stay away from being sore.

Here's the main site:

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html

Yes, getting sore all of the time can be a drag...HST is intended to
stimulate muscle growth.

If you read the HST site, you'll note it has the following features

1) full-body routine 3 times per week,
2) fewer sets per body part per workout (compared to a typical split
routine),
3) progressivly increasing of load (weight)
4) a period of deconditioning

Trying to explain this is kinda hard, so refer to the website for better
descriptions.

To do HST to first have to determine your 15-, 10-, and 5-rep max on each
exercise you intend to do.

Your 15-rep max is the maximum amount of weight you can use on an exercise
for 15 repetitions. Your 10- and 5-rep maxes are similar, but for different
repetitions. You must find these out for every movement you intended to do.
I spent two weeks finding mine.

After you find these, you will then do 4 two-week microcycles as part of an
HST cycle. In the first microcycle you'll do 15 reps on each exercise. The
second will involve 10 reps, and the third will be 5 reps, and the 4 can be
either 5 reps or negatives.

Each two-week microcycle is divided into six workouts, 3x per week. Using
your rep-max for a given microcycle, you then subtract a certain amount of
weight off your rep max once per workout for each exercise. So, workout 6
will be using the max weight for each exercise in that rep class. Workout 5
will use max - X on each exercise (note tht X can be different for each
exercise), workout 4 will use max - 2X, workout 3 will use max - 3X, down to
workout 1 at max - 5X, for each exercise. Hence, the load on each exercise
increases progressively over a two-week period until you get to the max
weight in a given rep class. Workout 1 will be really easy, almost two easy,
but workout 6 will be a killer, especially for the 15-rep microcycle.

So, as you progress through each microcycle, you'll generally be using
heavier weights for each exercise, but doing fewer reps (15, 10, then 5).
Thus, the load increases, the frequency is often, but the number of sets is
fairly low, doing one or two sets per exercise. In a typical split routine,
one generally does 6 sets per exercise. So in HST you do fewer sets per
workout on a given bodypart, but over the course of a week you get about the
same number of sets. Since you are working more frequently, but not killing
each bodypart like you would in a split routine, you don't get sore. Yet,
and this is supported by research listed on the site, the frequency and
progressive load work to stimulate muscle growth.

At the end of the 4 microcycle, you end up taking a week or two off.

That's a quick and dirty description of HST. For newbies, it is generally
thought that one should do just a regular full body workout for about 3
months before doing HST -- just to get the body used to lifting and to learn
the movements. But since you have training experience already, you can
likely begin as soon as you work out your maxes. HST works best if you use
compound movements in your routine: deadlifts, squats, bench presses,
military presses, lat pulldown, cable rows, leg presses, etc.

Hope that helps some...it's kinda late, so I didn't bother to proof that!

"Marsha" wrote in message
...
For those of you who weight train, do you exercise every day
with weights and just alternate the muscle groups. Or do
you exercise every other day with weights and maybe take a
walk or bike ride on alternate days. I've heard it's not
good to exercise the same muscles every day.

Marsha/Ohio


You're right Marsha, it isn't. For beginners, it is usually best to weight
train 3 times a week, skipping every other day. You can fill in the off days
with cardio if you like. Your workout will mainly have one exercise per main
muscle group. After you progress a bit, it is common to split the workout
into 2 or 3 day rotations. The only muscle group that seems to have a bit of
controversy with regards to how often to train is the ab group. Some people
say every day is ok, and others say every other day. Personally, I feel that
giving the muscles 24 or more hours to rebuild and recover is the best rule
of thumb. I am not a pro, but it is just common sense that the abs should
have the same amount of time to recover as the other muscle groups. If you
want some good info on women's weight training, this seems to be the best
site:

http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

My girlfriend loves this site and has had much success with weight training
so far. She's still a newbie at it, but she's addicted to it.

Chris

Marsha wrote:

For those of you who weight train, do you exercise every day with
weights and just alternate the muscle groups. Or do you exercise every
other day with weights and maybe take a walk or bike ride on alternate
days. I've heard it's not good to exercise the same muscles every day.

When I train two days in a row I'll usually alternate between
push and pull, as in back/biceps one day and chest/triceps the next.
I don't do this all that frequently though since it'll eventually
lower the quality of my workouts. I need to maximize intensity
in order to make progress and rest days are important for peak
intensity.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Marsha wrote in news:PMadnfBSn97zuUyi4p2dnA@buckeye-
express.com:

For those of you who weight train, do you exercise every day
with weights and just alternate the muscle groups. Or do
you exercise every other day with weights and maybe take a
walk or bike ride on alternate days. I've heard it's not
good to exercise the same muscles every day.


I alternate 5 days a week (i.e. Monday is upper body, Tuesday lower body,
Wednesday upper, etc)...I think it's better for your muscles to give a day
of rest in between workouts.

JBA

Hi Marsha,

I do a full-body workout 3 times a week (MWF or TTS). I follow the HST
protocal, which is designed to stimulate hypertrophy (muscle growth):

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html

I do these exercises:
Deadlift
flat bench press
lat pull downs
Leg Press
Seated Cable Pull
Incline Bench press
Shoulder Press
Standing Calf Raise
Machine Pullover
Assisted Dip
Tricep Pressdown
Bicep Curl (cable machine)

Keep in mind that my primary focus is fat loss, not muscle gain. If I were
actively trying to gain muscle, I do less exercise, fewer sets (I do 4 sets
fo the first 5), and eat everything in sight.

Krista's got some good workouts for beginners on her site:

http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

I suggest you go with one of those.

Marsha wrote:
:: For those of you who weight train, do you exercise every day
:: with weights and just alternate the muscle groups. Or do
:: you exercise every other day with weights and maybe take a
:: walk or bike ride on alternate days. I've heard it's not
:: good to exercise the same muscles every day.
::
:: Marsha/Ohio