Low carb and endurance running -- results of my experiment

On 2004-09-19, Ignoramus7876 wrote:
In article , Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
On 2004-09-18, Ignoramus7876 wrote:

For instance, if you want to make a statement like "running makes
everyone slim",

But that wasn't my statement. My statement was that runners maintain a low
weight without dieting because they are active. That is not the same thing
as the proposition you have above.

But you tried to prove your point by mentioning members of your
running club, which is subject to selection bias.

Since the population I'm making claims about are competitive runners, I
believe my running club to be representative.

Even then, it's not much of an argument, because fat people who take
up running generally drop weight pretty quickly.

I always ran, and yet became fat. Running may work for most people,
but, it did not work for me, although, possibly, I did not run enough,

Running 6 miles a week will do almost nothing.

The impression I have from reading books on exercise physiology, and
talking to people who know this stuff fairly well, is that a regular
exercise program does indeed bring about weight loss.

Is that a sustained weight loss, or a drop of a relatively small
amount of weight?

Long term adherence to any weight loss program is fairly poor.

I would be very interested in your references, and maybe would look up
stuff myself.

Any exercise physiology textbook should suffice.

Why not take carb gels before and during exercise ?

But why take them?

Because they are known to be beneficial to performance ? Because you're less
likely to have trouble with recovery if you take them ?

Why put fuel in your car before you drive ?

Doing so isn't going to make you food obsessed, and will not subvert
what you *claim* are the goals of the diet. Is the purpose of the
diet truly hunger control, or has this diet of yours become an end
in itself?

It is hunger control, definitely, plus I like what it did to my blood
sugar.

Sam has already pointed out that you don't get insulin spikes when you take
in carbs during exercise. As for hunger control, I don't see how taking carbs
during a race is going to make you more hungry.

You can live on a low carb diet, but still take carbs during the
race. Unless you're some kind of religious nutjob, that is.

You see, differeent people have different goals when they run races.

Some want to see what they are capable of when they build their life
around achieving highest performance.

Some want to simply run the distance so that they can brag about it to
their friends. Nothing wrong with that.

Some want to set records and win prizes (that would be Kenyans).

Some want to see what they can do, given their particular lifestyle,
to evaluate effect of a lifestyle rather that achieve the fastest
personal result possible.

No, it would be a lifestyle if you sustained yourself on that diet at all
times that you weren't racing. Where it becomes a religion is the point where
you stubbornly insist on abstaining from carbs the way a monk abstains from
sex -- almost as though you're afraid that you'd be violating some sacred
principle were you to take carbs.

That would be me. Is that wrong? Do you
think that we should all have the same goal?

Not at all. If you want to make low carb dieting into a religion, go right
ahead. You certainly wouldn't be the first to do so.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

On 2004-09-19, Ignoramus7876 wrote:
Donovan, you mentioned earlier your opinion that exercise alone
creates great long term weight loss.

That's not an accurate summary of my opinion.

So, women did not lose weight due to exercise, and men lost measly 11
lbs, on their exercise programs.

If they're not substantially overweight in the first place, 11lb weight loss
is quite good.

The sex differences in the results are interesting, could mean that the female
subjects simply didn't burn enough calories. An exercise program that doesn't
burn calories is as useless as a diet that doesn't cut them.

That was quite good for them, and they did not continue gaining weight like
the controls did,

In other words, there was a main effect.

but it was not the sort of dramatic weight loss that people achieve when they
control both diet and exercise.

This study doesn't compare diet + exercise to exercise only, so it doesn't
address that question. However, diet + exercise does produce better results.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Phil M." wrote in message ...
Ignoramus26859 wrote:

So, I asked a question on alt.support.diet.low-carb and
rec.running on whether running a *half marathon* on LC was possible.

Haven't these sort of experiments already been done?

Phil M.

I've run distances over 20K while on a low-carb diet which is roughly
half a marathon. It's possible but I don't recommend being on low-carb
if you are going for good performance. I certainly cannot run
distances like I could. As a matter of fact, if I run even 10K I get
that annoying overtraining effect where I cannot sleep sometimes for
two days. I sometimes feel nauseated after my run and I get a little
winded even at a rather slow running speed. And I've been running for
15 years. So now I run a lot less and do far more weight training
which I'm able to do as well as ever. No biggie.

In absolutely every other way, however, I feel much better on
low-carb. My nagging health problems have all vanished. I love to be
able to munch away on bacon and pork rinds and still lose weight.

"Phil M." wrote in message ...
Ignoramus26859 wrote:

So, I asked a question on alt.support.diet.low-carb and
rec.running on whether running a *half marathon* on LC was possible.

Haven't these sort of experiments already been done?

Phil M.

I've run distances over 20K while on a low-carb diet which is roughly
half a marathon. It's possible but I don't recommend being on low-carb
if you are going for good performance. I certainly cannot run
distances like I could. As a matter of fact, if I run even 10K I get
that annoying overtraining effect where I cannot sleep sometimes for
two days. I sometimes feel nauseated after my run and I get a little
winded even at a rather slow running speed. And I've been running for
15 years. So now I run a lot less and do far more weight training
which I'm able to do as well as ever. No biggie.

In absolutely every other way, however, I feel much better on
low-carb. My nagging health problems have all vanished. I love to be
able to munch away on bacon and pork rinds and still lose weight.

Sorry, but I do not look at marathon runners with any kind of reverence. In
fact, it's quite the opposite. I feel that this type of activity is quite unhealthy
as it's clear that long distance, steady-state aerobics of any kind burns
muscle. Ever see a sprinter? Built like a bull with outstanding mucsle
development. Compare that person to a LD runner who conversely, looks like
a starved bird.

Ask a bodybuilder what kind of aerobics he does and he'll probably answer:
15 minutes of "HIIT" training, which stands for High Intensity Interval
Training. An example of HIIT would be, running at top speed for 30 seconds
then running low speed for 30 seconds, repeating the cycle for the duration
workout. What this does is force the body to *not* get used to a training
regimen and to see a constant dynamic which has been found to accelerate
muscle development and burn fat while enhancing the cardiovascular
system. Why just 15 minutes? Anything more will burn muscle and just isn't
necessary.

If you want to learn more, just do a Google search on HIIT.

Comments welcome.

In article ,
lid says...

In article , Doug Freese
wrote:
My real annoyance comes from ignoramus(his name, not mine) trying to
do
endurance running on a LC diet. It's like trying to add water to your
gas tank of your car to get more miles per tank of gas. Any eating
regimin that the exercising body rejects for insufficient fuel tells me
it is not healthy.

Doug, what I am trying to demonstrate is that my body does not reject
LC as "insufficient fuel". To do it in a measurable way, I am
considering running a half marathon, all the while without deviating
from my "paleo diet". In fact, you guys got me so worked up that I
will very likely go to the half marathon next week.

Maybe one day I will run a full marathon, like one poster to
alt.support.diet.low-carb did:

http://tinyurl.com/4f7fb

i

Sorry, but I do not look at marathon runners with any kind of reverence. In
fact, it's quite the opposite. I feel that this type of activity is quite unhealthy
as it's clear that long distance, steady-state aerobics of any kind burns
muscle. Ever see a sprinter? Built like a bull with outstanding mucsle
development. Compare that person to a LD runner who conversely, looks like
a starved bird.

Ask a bodybuilder what kind of aerobics he does and he'll probably answer:
15 minutes of "HIIT" training, which stands for High Intensity Interval
Training. An example of HIIT would be, running at top speed for 30 seconds
then running low speed for 30 seconds, repeating the cycle for the duration
workout. What this does is force the body to *not* get used to a training
regimen and to see a constant dynamic which has been found to accelerate
muscle development and burn fat while enhancing the cardiovascular
system. Why just 15 minutes? Anything more will burn muscle and just isn't
necessary.

If you want to learn more, just do a Google search on HIIT.

Comments welcome.

In article ,
lid says...

In article , Doug Freese
wrote:
My real annoyance comes from ignoramus(his name, not mine) trying to
do
endurance running on a LC diet. It's like trying to add water to your
gas tank of your car to get more miles per tank of gas. Any eating
regimin that the exercising body rejects for insufficient fuel tells me
it is not healthy.

Doug, what I am trying to demonstrate is that my body does not reject
LC as "insufficient fuel". To do it in a measurable way, I am
considering running a half marathon, all the while without deviating
from my "paleo diet". In fact, you guys got me so worked up that I
will very likely go to the half marathon next week.

Maybe one day I will run a full marathon, like one poster to
alt.support.diet.low-carb did:

http://tinyurl.com/4f7fb

i

On 19 Sep 2004 11:43:04 GMT, (Armand) wrote:

Sorry, but I do not look at marathon runners with any kind of reverence. In
fact, it's quite the opposite. I feel that this type of activity is quite unhealthy
as it's clear that long distance, steady-state aerobics of any kind burns
muscle.

Yep, marathon running does tend to be catabolic.

Ever see a sprinter? Built like a bull with outstanding mucsle
development. Compare that person to a LD runner who conversely, looks like
a starved bird.

Ask a bodybuilder what kind of aerobics he does and he'll probably answer:
15 minutes of "HIIT" training, which stands for High Intensity Interval
Training. An example of HIIT would be, running at top speed for 30 seconds
then running low speed for 30 seconds, repeating the cycle for the duration
workout. What this does is force the body to *not* get used to a training
regimen and to see a constant dynamic which has been found to accelerate
muscle development and burn fat while enhancing the cardiovascular
system. Why just 15 minutes? Anything more will burn muscle and just isn't
necessary.

Again, we're in agreement, and I understand where you are coming from.
I'm more of the HIIT/weight training type myself. And I also
generally do lowish carb/moderate to moderate-high protein diet.

But your comments and advice have little to do with the original post
-- which has to do with soliciting advice and comments about doing
*endurance* training on a low carb eating regimen.

(snip)

On 19 Sep 2004 11:43:04 GMT, (Armand) wrote:

Sorry, but I do not look at marathon runners with any kind of reverence. In
fact, it's quite the opposite. I feel that this type of activity is quite unhealthy
as it's clear that long distance, steady-state aerobics of any kind burns
muscle.

Yep, marathon running does tend to be catabolic.

Ever see a sprinter? Built like a bull with outstanding mucsle
development. Compare that person to a LD runner who conversely, looks like
a starved bird.

Ask a bodybuilder what kind of aerobics he does and he'll probably answer:
15 minutes of "HIIT" training, which stands for High Intensity Interval
Training. An example of HIIT would be, running at top speed for 30 seconds
then running low speed for 30 seconds, repeating the cycle for the duration
workout. What this does is force the body to *not* get used to a training
regimen and to see a constant dynamic which has been found to accelerate
muscle development and burn fat while enhancing the cardiovascular
system. Why just 15 minutes? Anything more will burn muscle and just isn't
necessary.

Again, we're in agreement, and I understand where you are coming from.
I'm more of the HIIT/weight training type myself. And I also
generally do lowish carb/moderate to moderate-high protein diet.

But your comments and advice have little to do with the original post
-- which has to do with soliciting advice and comments about doing
*endurance* training on a low carb eating regimen.

(snip)

In article ,
says...

On 19 Sep 2004 11:43:04 GMT, (Armand) wrote:

Sorry, but I do not look at marathon runners with any kind of reverence. In
fact, it's quite the opposite. I feel that this type of activity is quite unhe
althy
as it's clear that long distance, steady-state aerobics of any kind burns
muscle.

Yep, marathon running does tend to be catabolic.

Ever see a sprinter? Built like a bull with outstanding mucsle
development. Compare that person to a LD runner who conversely, looks
like
a starved bird.

Ask a bodybuilder what kind of aerobics he does and he'll probably
answer:
15 minutes of "HIIT" training, which stands for High Intensity Interval
Training. An example of HIIT would be, running at top speed for 30
seconds
then running low speed for 30 seconds, repeating the cycle for the duration
workout. What this does is force the body to *not* get used to a training
regimen and to see a constant dynamic which has been found to accelerate
muscle development and burn fat while enhancing the cardiovascular
system. Why just 15 minutes? Anything more will burn muscle and just
isn't
necessary.

Again, we're in agreement, and I understand where you are coming from.
I'm more of the HIIT/weight training type myself. And I also
generally do lowish carb/moderate to moderate-high protein diet.

But your comments and advice have little to do with the original post
-- which has to do with soliciting advice and comments about doing
*endurance* training on a low carb eating regimen.

(snip)

Granted, but I just wanted to share my experiences about both endurance
type training and HIIT and how surprised I was at the difference relative to the
outcome (read gains).

In article ,
says...

On 19 Sep 2004 11:43:04 GMT, (Armand) wrote:

Sorry, but I do not look at marathon runners with any kind of reverence. In
fact, it's quite the opposite. I feel that this type of activity is quite unhe
althy
as it's clear that long distance, steady-state aerobics of any kind burns
muscle.

Yep, marathon running does tend to be catabolic.

Ever see a sprinter? Built like a bull with outstanding mucsle
development. Compare that person to a LD runner who conversely, looks
like
a starved bird.

Ask a bodybuilder what kind of aerobics he does and he'll probably
answer:
15 minutes of "HIIT" training, which stands for High Intensity Interval
Training. An example of HIIT would be, running at top speed for 30
seconds
then running low speed for 30 seconds, repeating the cycle for the duration
workout. What this does is force the body to *not* get used to a training
regimen and to see a constant dynamic which has been found to accelerate
muscle development and burn fat while enhancing the cardiovascular
system. Why just 15 minutes? Anything more will burn muscle and just
isn't
necessary.

Again, we're in agreement, and I understand where you are coming from.
I'm more of the HIIT/weight training type myself. And I also
generally do lowish carb/moderate to moderate-high protein diet.

But your comments and advice have little to do with the original post
-- which has to do with soliciting advice and comments about doing
*endurance* training on a low carb eating regimen.

(snip)

Granted, but I just wanted to share my experiences about both endurance
type training and HIIT and how surprised I was at the difference relative to the
outcome (read gains).