What make one feel hungry?

Miche wrote:

Blue! Interesting. If the preagricultural foods tended to be
smaller, wouldn't the hunter-gatherers have consumed less when
they found them? Wouldn't there discoveries of such things have
been rather hit-or-miss? (I still haven't cracked open my books.)

Nah, people remembered where and when to find good crops of different
foods. Even nomadic people made sure they were in the right place at
the right time to find lots of good stuff.

Oh, of course, but they did not control how much of that food was
there any given year--and what was there may have been shared.

Did you know that in South America the mountain peoples (don't ask me
their names, I can't remember) used to freeze-dry potatoes?

They'd dig them up, then leave them on the ground overnight in a frost.
The next morning they'd stamp on them to flatten them, and leave them
out overnight again. Repeat the procedure a few times and you have
freeze-dried spuds that can be stored for a whole winter.


That sounds vaguely familiar, but I forget who it was.

--
Jean B.

In article , Jean B. wrote:
Miche wrote:

In article ,
Pat Paris wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:51:32 +1300, Miche
wrote:

In article ,
(Chet Hayes) wrote:

Miche wrote in message
...
A lot of gathered roots and vegetables were high-carb too, even before
humans started cross-breeding for palatability.

What roots or vegetables growing naturally and in abundance are
high carb?

What benchmark are you using for "high-carb"?

You're the one who said "the gathered roots and vegetable were
high-carb" in your response. What benchmark are you using? Or,
rather, what benchmark is the Anthropologist using?

I don't mean "high-carb" in the modern sense (post human interference)
-- such vegetables are _way_ higher in carbohydrates than they used to
be.

However, they were _always_ high in carbohydrates compared with other
foods -- even wild (blue) potatoes are high carbohydrate.

I was just responding to the idea that seems to be going round the group
that before agriculture people basically didn't eat carbohydrates. It's
not true -- they did, but not as 60-70% of the diet as people do after
the "low-fat revolution".

I dunno that anyone said such people didn't eat carbs, just that
they ate much fewer carbs than we do now, and that perhaps that is
why eating lots of carbs has such a negative effect on many of us.

But they ate lots of berries and fruits. Also many flowers and
root vegetables. They also ate seeds. That's what wheat, rice, wild
rice, etc are. There were also nuts, in particular chestnuts, which
were used for flour here not that lomg ago. And lets not forget
acorns.

And then lets not forget honey. Dangerous to harvest, but it must
have been much prized.

Remember, our ancesters were hunter-gatherers. They gathered from
the plants that grew naturally.


Chuck Demas

--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
| \___/ | http://world.std.com/~cpd

"Charles Demas" wrote in message
...
In article , Jean B. wrote:
Miche wrote:

In article ,
Pat Paris wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:51:32 +1300, Miche
wrote:

In article ,
(Chet Hayes) wrote:

Miche wrote in message
...
A lot of gathered roots and vegetables were high-carb too, even
before
humans started cross-breeding for palatability.

What roots or vegetables growing naturally and in abundance are
high carb?

What benchmark are you using for "high-carb"?

You're the one who said "the gathered roots and vegetable were
high-carb" in your response. What benchmark are you using? Or,
rather, what benchmark is the Anthropologist using?

I don't mean "high-carb" in the modern sense (post human interference)
-- such vegetables are _way_ higher in carbohydrates than they used to
be.

However, they were _always_ high in carbohydrates compared with other
foods -- even wild (blue) potatoes are high carbohydrate.

I was just responding to the idea that seems to be going round the
group
that before agriculture people basically didn't eat carbohydrates.
It's
not true -- they did, but not as 60-70% of the diet as people do after
the "low-fat revolution".

I dunno that anyone said such people didn't eat carbs, just that
they ate much fewer carbs than we do now, and that perhaps that is
why eating lots of carbs has such a negative effect on many of us.

But they ate lots of berries and fruits. Also many flowers and
root vegetables. They also ate seeds. That's what wheat, rice, wild
rice, etc are. There were also nuts, in particular chestnuts, which
were used for flour here not that lomg ago. And lets not forget
acorns.

And then lets not forget honey. Dangerous to harvest, but it must
have been much prized.

Remember, our ancesters were hunter-gatherers. They gathered from
the plants that grew naturally.



Most of them also went hungry a lot.

In article , "Jean B."
wrote:

Miche wrote:

Blue! Interesting. If the preagricultural foods tended to be
smaller, wouldn't the hunter-gatherers have consumed less when
they found them? Wouldn't there discoveries of such things have
been rather hit-or-miss? (I still haven't cracked open my books.)

Nah, people remembered where and when to find good crops of different
foods. Even nomadic people made sure they were in the right place at
the right time to find lots of good stuff.

Oh, of course, but they did not control how much of that food was
there any given year--and what was there may have been shared.

That's true enough. My point, though, was they knew when and where to
find it. Not knowing was almost certain death.

Crops still fail, occasionally. How much food there is available is not
_entirely_ under the control of humans.

Miche

--
If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud.
-- Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"

In article ,
(Charles Demas) wrote:

In article , Jean B. wrote:
Miche wrote:

In article ,
Pat Paris wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:51:32 +1300, Miche
wrote:

In article ,
(Chet Hayes) wrote:

Miche wrote in message
...
A lot of gathered roots and vegetables were high-carb too, even
before
humans started cross-breeding for palatability.

What roots or vegetables growing naturally and in abundance are
high carb?

What benchmark are you using for "high-carb"?

You're the one who said "the gathered roots and vegetable were
high-carb" in your response. What benchmark are you using? Or,
rather, what benchmark is the Anthropologist using?

I don't mean "high-carb" in the modern sense (post human interference)
-- such vegetables are _way_ higher in carbohydrates than they used to
be.

However, they were _always_ high in carbohydrates compared with other
foods -- even wild (blue) potatoes are high carbohydrate.

I was just responding to the idea that seems to be going round the group
that before agriculture people basically didn't eat carbohydrates. It's
not true -- they did, but not as 60-70% of the diet as people do after
the "low-fat revolution".

I dunno that anyone said such people didn't eat carbs, just that
they ate much fewer carbs than we do now, and that perhaps that is
why eating lots of carbs has such a negative effect on many of us.

But they ate lots of berries and fruits. Also many flowers and
root vegetables. They also ate seeds. That's what wheat, rice, wild
rice, etc are. There were also nuts, in particular chestnuts, which
were used for flour here not that lomg ago. And lets not forget
acorns.

And then lets not forget honey. Dangerous to harvest, but it must
have been much prized.

Remember, our ancesters were hunter-gatherers. They gathered from
the plants that grew naturally.

Right. And some of those plants were high-carb (including the
aforementioned root vegetables).

For those wanting cites, here they a

From one friend who decided to have a look into SE Asian wild rice:

"Banyan Valley cave dated 3500 bc at the lowest levels.
*
110 rice husks recoverd. when compared to cultivated and wild varieties
theses were all caracteristic of wild varieties ( no awn on the tip of
the grain sheath and ragged surface of husk).
*
The Archaeology of Mainland South East Asia, Charles Higham, Cambridge
University Press 1989"

From another friend who does research into ancient civilizations for fun:

"_Domestication of Plants in the Old World_ Daniel Zohary and Maria
Hopf. One example out of many: Ohalo, an Epi-Palaeolithic site in
Israel, dating to 17,000 BCE. Remains include wild wheat and barley, and
also
acorns (which are quite high in starch; more on that below). These are
all wild plants, as the earliest dates for wheat and barley agriculture
are 8000 BCE. Wheat is described as 60-80% starch in the same book, and
that holds true for both wild and domesticated wheats (in fact, much
domesticated wheat is higher in protein and therefore lower in starch)
and also the book states "Einkorn wheat was,,,, extensively collected
from the wild before its introduction into cultivation."

Acorns. oooo, acorns. Acorns are the original high-starch food in many
places, and they are always wild. "Acornutopia? Determining the role of
acorns in past human subsistence" from _Food in Antiquity_ edited by
John Wilkins, David Harvey, & Mike Dobson. Some bits from this article:
Acorns have been found at sites in Europe datiing from 19,000 BP;
acorns
were used up till the present day in many Native American cultures, not
least the Californian Indians."

And from my DH:

"Contemporary wild tuber with high carbs (even by modern standards)

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/ava...121198-155735/

so wild foods can be high in carbs.

neolithic Maori exploitation of cabbage tree (southern Maori not
horticultural) = lots of sugar:
http://www.handsonhistory.co.nz/pre-maori.htm
http://www.ccc.govt.nz/parks/Trees/protected_20.asp


Assuming you conflate horticulture and agriculture, which is technically
a no-no but this is the internet, the sweet potato Ipomoea batatas seems
be descended from the wild Ipomoea trifida, while the roots are not
normally as abundant they are still a source.
http://ss.knaes.affrc.go.jp/sporf/no05/m2.html

Rice - putting aside the evidence of rice cultivation exceeding 10000
years Before Present
http://www.carleton.ca/~bgordon/Rice....htm#EVOLUTION
and the argument that humans adapt as well (domestication not being a
one way street) so we've had plenty of time to adapt to this (if
adaption was required, if it wasn't then we're suited to eating the food
anyway)
and focusing on the gathering of wild Oryza rufipogon.
given there is archaeological evidence for wild rice gathering (google
searches for 'archaeolgical "wild rice gathering"' or 'archaeologcial
"gathering wild rice"' provide a start) this can be demostrated to have
been part of the diet. Like most species it will be more important in
areas it is common.

Now the Alawa of the Northern terriotories Australia traditionally (i.e.
non-Agriculturally) use Oryza rufipogon which can be coooked and stored
for years.
http://sites.uws.edu.au/vip/listerp/tbot.htm
(also on that page:
Screw palm (Pandanus spiralis) seed. The kernel within the seed is
edible but difficult to extract. It is apparently high in oils and
carbohydrates and highly sought after by people in the Top End.)

Macrozamia nuts (see Cycads more generally), aside of being the greatest
cancer forming agent in the natural world if not detoxified, were the
major carbo source in parts of australia
http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/lbry/dig_p.../a334583_a.pdf
this article has figure of food production 1400 kilocalories per woman
hour of processing.
see also:
http://aoi.com.au/acotanc/Papers/Mas...hor-n-Text.htm
http://plantnet.rbgsyd.gov.au/PlantN...d/ethnaus.html
"

Miche (bowing out of this thread now)

--
If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud.
-- Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"

In article ,
(Ben Park) wrote:

I am very serious about my low-carb endeavor.

I bought lots of almond, frozen salmon from CostCo, and cooked a
potful of soybean.

I bought a Freestyle glucose meter. After a whole day of no carb, my
glucose reading is 86, while my wife ate 1 big bowl of rice and
measured 102 two hours later. But she still doesn't buy my low-carb
lecturing.

Some people just simply won't be convinced. :/

I have orderd books for Atkins, South Beach, Zone, and Glucose
Revolution.

I would also suggest that you get the Eades' Protein Power book, as
well. Lots of good information about the idea of an evolutionarily-based
diet, since you started this thread by asking how/why this happened. You
might also check out "Neanderthin", by Ray Audette.

Good luck!

Stan

Miche wrote:

In article ,
(Charles Demas) wrote:

In article , Jean B. wrote:
Miche wrote:

In article ,
Pat Paris wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:51:32 +1300, Miche
wrote:

In article ,
(Chet Hayes) wrote:

Miche wrote in message
...
A lot of gathered roots and vegetables were high-carb too, even
before
humans started cross-breeding for palatability.

What roots or vegetables growing naturally and in abundance are
high carb?

What benchmark are you using for "high-carb"?

You're the one who said "the gathered roots and vegetable were
high-carb" in your response. What benchmark are you using? Or,
rather, what benchmark is the Anthropologist using?

I don't mean "high-carb" in the modern sense (post human interference)
-- such vegetables are _way_ higher in carbohydrates than they used to
be.

However, they were _always_ high in carbohydrates compared with other
foods -- even wild (blue) potatoes are high carbohydrate.

I was just responding to the idea that seems to be going round the group
that before agriculture people basically didn't eat carbohydrates. It's
not true -- they did, but not as 60-70% of the diet as people do after
the "low-fat revolution".

I dunno that anyone said such people didn't eat carbs, just that
they ate much fewer carbs than we do now, and that perhaps that is
why eating lots of carbs has such a negative effect on many of us.

But they ate lots of berries and fruits. Also many flowers and
root vegetables. They also ate seeds. That's what wheat, rice, wild
rice, etc are. There were also nuts, in particular chestnuts, which
were used for flour here not that lomg ago. And lets not forget
acorns.

And then lets not forget honey. Dangerous to harvest, but it must
have been much prized.

Remember, our ancesters were hunter-gatherers. They gathered from
the plants that grew naturally.

Right. And some of those plants were high-carb (including the
aforementioned root vegetables).

For those wanting cites, here they a

From one friend who decided to have a look into SE Asian wild rice:

"Banyan Valley cave dated 3500 bc at the lowest levels.

110 rice husks recoverd. when compared to cultivated and wild varieties
theses were all caracteristic of wild varieties ( no awn on the tip of
the grain sheath and ragged surface of husk).

The Archaeology of Mainland South East Asia, Charles Higham, Cambridge
University Press 1989"

From another friend who does research into ancient civilizations for fun:

"_Domestication of Plants in the Old World_ Daniel Zohary and Maria
Hopf. One example out of many: Ohalo, an Epi-Palaeolithic site in
Israel, dating to 17,000 BCE. Remains include wild wheat and barley, and
also
acorns (which are quite high in starch; more on that below). These are
all wild plants, as the earliest dates for wheat and barley agriculture
are 8000 BCE. Wheat is described as 60-80% starch in the same book, and
that holds true for both wild and domesticated wheats (in fact, much
domesticated wheat is higher in protein and therefore lower in starch)
and also the book states "Einkorn wheat was,,,, extensively collected
from the wild before its introduction into cultivation."

Acorns. oooo, acorns. Acorns are the original high-starch food in many
places, and they are always wild. "Acornutopia? Determining the role of
acorns in past human subsistence" from _Food in Antiquity_ edited by
John Wilkins, David Harvey, & Mike Dobson. Some bits from this article:
Acorns have been found at sites in Europe datiing from 19,000 BP;
acorns
were used up till the present day in many Native American cultures, not
least the Californian Indians."

And from my DH:

"Contemporary wild tuber with high carbs (even by modern standards)

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/ava...121198-155735/

so wild foods can be high in carbs.

neolithic Maori exploitation of cabbage tree (southern Maori not
horticultural) = lots of sugar:
http://www.handsonhistory.co.nz/pre-maori.htm
http://www.ccc.govt.nz/parks/Trees/protected_20.asp

Assuming you conflate horticulture and agriculture, which is technically
a no-no but this is the internet, the sweet potato Ipomoea batatas seems
be descended from the wild Ipomoea trifida, while the roots are not
normally as abundant they are still a source.
http://ss.knaes.affrc.go.jp/sporf/no05/m2.html

Rice - putting aside the evidence of rice cultivation exceeding 10000
years Before Present
http://www.carleton.ca/~bgordon/Rice....htm#EVOLUTION
and the argument that humans adapt as well (domestication not being a
one way street) so we've had plenty of time to adapt to this (if
adaption was required, if it wasn't then we're suited to eating the food
anyway)
and focusing on the gathering of wild Oryza rufipogon.
given there is archaeological evidence for wild rice gathering (google
searches for 'archaeolgical "wild rice gathering"' or 'archaeologcial
"gathering wild rice"' provide a start) this can be demostrated to have
been part of the diet. Like most species it will be more important in
areas it is common.

Now the Alawa of the Northern terriotories Australia traditionally (i.e.
non-Agriculturally) use Oryza rufipogon which can be coooked and stored
for years.
http://sites.uws.edu.au/vip/listerp/tbot.htm
(also on that page:
Screw palm (Pandanus spiralis) seed. The kernel within the seed is
edible but difficult to extract. It is apparently high in oils and
carbohydrates and highly sought after by people in the Top End.)

Macrozamia nuts (see Cycads more generally), aside of being the greatest
cancer forming agent in the natural world if not detoxified, were the
major carbo source in parts of australia
http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/lbry/dig_p.../a334583_a.pdf
this article has figure of food production 1400 kilocalories per woman
hour of processing.
see also:
http://aoi.com.au/acotanc/Papers/Mas...hor-n-Text.htm
http://plantnet.rbgsyd.gov.au/PlantN...d/ethnaus.html
"

Miche (bowing out of this thread now)

Don't bow out before I tell you I'm impressed. I look forward to
looking at some of those links tomorrow.

--
Jean B.

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:15:43 +1300, Miche
wrote:

I've asked for cites.

Thank you.

And as for the Paleolithic nutrition thing, ask the paleo-diet folks --
they admit that their diet is NOT low-carb.

Well, you are the one making the assertions that Paleolithic nutrition
came more from gathering than from hunting, that Paleolithic peoples
of what is now known as Southeast Asia ate "a lot of grain", and that
Paleolithic peoples gathered "a lot" of high carb roots and
vegetables. You said your source was your husband, so that led me to
believe that your husband must have some expertise in this field. I
apologize if I was incorrect in that assumption.

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:12:38 +1300, Miche
wrote:

I was just responding to the idea that seems to be going round the group
that before agriculture people basically didn't eat carbohydrates.

I've not seen anyone say that. Jean B. said she thought "most of the
calories" came from game and I believe she is correct.

they did, but not as 60-70% of the diet as people do after
the "low-fat revolution".

What percent of their diet would you say was carbohydrate?

In article ,
Pat Paris wrote:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:15:43 +1300, Miche
wrote:

I've asked for cites.

Thank you.

And as for the Paleolithic nutrition thing, ask the paleo-diet folks --
they admit that their diet is NOT low-carb.

Well, you are the one making the assertions that Paleolithic nutrition
came more from gathering than from hunting, that Paleolithic peoples
of what is now known as Southeast Asia ate "a lot of grain", and that
Paleolithic peoples gathered "a lot" of high carb roots and
vegetables. You said your source was your husband,

Yeah, and when he said that to me using phrases like "a lot", he wasn't
quoting out of a book but out of his head.

so that led me to
believe that your husband must have some expertise in this field. I
apologize if I was incorrect in that assumption.

He has two degrees in anthropology.

But as I said, I'm getting out of this thread now.

Miche

--
If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud.
-- Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"