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#101
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Matti Narkia wrote:
Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:54:40 GMT in article m "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote: Matti Narkia wrote: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 13:27:38 -0500 in article "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote: Why does your life have no meaning? Your comments are meaningless and irrelevant for the large part of the time. Why are you evading the question? Your questions are meaningless and irrelevant most of time. You need help. Still you evade. -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com |
#102
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Thu, 30 Oct 2003 01:15:32 GMT in article
m "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote: Still you evade. It may hurt now, but you get used to it. -- Matti Narkia |
#103
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Matti Narkia wrote:
Thu, 30 Oct 2003 01:15:32 GMT in article m "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote: Still you evade. It may hurt now, but you get used to it. Why are you hurting? -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com |
#104
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Mars at the Mu_n's Edge wrote:
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:30:35 +0100, "M.W.Smith" wrote: Is waste flushed by water or by circulatory elements? I think water is an important component. The waste has to be suspened in something. I assume kidney operation is triggered by excess water. The waste goes along with it. I can't argue here, don't understand the physiology well enough. Is it also correct, in your thinking, that a low sat fat diet (or is it a low all fat diet) combined with the same exercise program would be the best of all worlds? If you can do it comfortably, which I can't due to hunger and cravings. First, I assume it is most important, if one is fat, to lose the weight. Losing the weight is a big plus. I would agree. Chung would claim the way you lose weight is sometimes more important than losing it. Second, I have noticed that since I have been eating significantly more protein on Atkins, and moderately more fat, that my strength has increased markedly. This strength increase never happened on a high-carb, low-fat diet for me. How did you test your strength gains? I could jump higher and many more times before exhaustion, and I could do a lot more pushups, correctly, and I could do the exercise where you lift and hold your body off the ground horizontally, on your toes and forearms, and I could hold it there for a long time. Is your answer then that the exercise program should stress aerobic qualities first? Yes, because these build cardio-vascular strength and capacity, and far more people die of heart and respiratory illness than die of weakness in the muscles. Yes, I get all kinds of stares from folks who know I am a strength trainer when I walk by the floor and jump on the treadmill. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
#105
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
How did you test your strength gains? On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:42:34 +0100, "M.W.Smith" wrote: I could jump higher and many more times before exhaustion, and I could do a lot more pushups, correctly, and I could do the exercise where you lift and hold your body off the ground horizontally, on your toes and forearms, and I could hold it there for a long time. These are all exhibitions of many different kinds of strength. Congratulations. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long. |
#106
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ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins diet works
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb: Thorsten Schier wrote: "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb: Matti Narkia wrote: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:36:24 GMT in article m "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote: Valley Of Mu_n wrote: On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:25:31 -0500, Aaron Baugher wrote: Why should the AHA care what diet works, if their real concern is helping people with heart problems? The AMA is not only concerned with your heart. They do care about the short and long term effects of any diet on the whole of the person. How long will embarrassment over past mistakes trump doing the right thing now? The AHA doesn't consider it the right thing. The AHA is not alone. From Dr. Barry Sears (2/24/2000): "Finally, the longer you stay in ketosis, you begin to oxidize lipoproteins, so these are long-term consequences which begin to explain why high protein diets fail." Source: http://www.usda.gov/cnpp/Seminars/GND/Proceedings.txt That is your "evidence"?. Evidence that the AHA is not alone in their sentiments? The answer is "yes". Barry Sears' unsubstantiated oral statement over three years ago without any references whatsoever to back it up? Dr. Sears' statement was not contested by Dr. Atkins. Dr. Atkins spoke before Dr. Sears so he couldn't contest this in his presentation. The discussion was too short for everyone to be able to contest everything they might not like about what the others said. You have to do "much" better than that. Not really. See below. Pertinent research: http://tinyurl.com/s8mp "This study demonstrates that incubation of AA with normal RBCs in phosphate-buffered saline (37 degrees C for 24 h) resulted in marked GSH depletion, oxidized glutathione accumulation, hydroxyl radical generation, and increased membrane lipid peroxidation." Note that these are *normal* red blood cells (RBCs) incubated under physiological conditions with AA (acetoacetate is a ketone that *is* elevated with ketogenic LC dieting) resulting in measurable toxic (bad) effects on the cells. Especially concerning is the generation of oxygen free radicals and peroxidation of membrane lipids. As ha already been shown, this applies only to type 1 diabetes patients as authors mention in their conclusion. This in vitro experiment being done under *normal* physiological conditions (no hyperglycemia) makes it applicable to isolated hyperketonemia (ie ketogenic LC dieting). Would suggest you read the entire paper. The full text of this study is at http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org.../48/9/1850.pdf Yes, it is. Would suggest you read it in its entirety especially paying attention to Figure 1. A quote from there gives one explanation why this study applies only to type 1 diabetes: "The blood concentration of ketone bodies may reach 10 mmol/l in diabetic patients with severe ketosis, versus 0.5 mmol/l in normal people (24,25)." Normal people are not having hyperketonemia from being on *ketogenic* LC diets. One would expect folks on *ketogenic* LC diets to have serum ketone concentrations somewhere between 0.5 micromol/ml and 10 micromol/ml. Now look again at Figure 1 paying close attention to MDA (marker of lipid peroxidation, which is the bad stuff). I would not want any of that increasing in my arteries. They used rather high concentrations of ketones. In the second part of the study, where they studied hyperketonemia vs. normoketonemia in diabetics the children in the hyperketonemia-group had a mean level of acetoacetate (which was the only ketone which showed any significant effect on membrane peroxidation) of 0,71 micromol/ml. In the first part however, they seem to have used much higher concentrations in most tests. Their tables show the effects of concentrations of acetoacetate of 5 and 20 micromol/ml. Figure 1 is the only hint It's more than a hint. It is data. Throughout the rest of the study, they investigate the effects of higher concentrations. Seems like they felt that the effects of the smaller concentrations were not very impressive. that they investigated also the effect of lower concentrations. This figure shows only a small effect for concentrations of about 1 micromol/ml. That small physiological effect may lead to a big clinical effect. We don't know that. Then they found out that even the effect of the very high concentrations of acetoacetate on MDA was prevented by a small amount of vitamin E (0,1 micromol/ml). This is not a small amount. Since vitamin E is lipid soluble, there are also issues of compartmentalization where the Vitamin E likely ends up sitting in fat cells where it is least likely to confer any protection. According to findings from the Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey the average serum level of alpha-tocopherol is 0,0268 micromol/ml: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract (http://tinyurl.com/t7n9) This is lower than the concentration used in this study, but we have to face a much lower concentration of acetoacetate in ketogenic diet also, so that this concentration of vitamin E should be enough to prevent most of the oxidative stress from acetoacetate. Recall vitamin E was ineffective in preventing heart attacks in the HOPE trial. Did they vitamin E from a natural source? Synthetic vitamin E is almost useless. So the effect of acetoacetate on membrane peroxidation might be a possbile concern. Glad you agree. Life is full of risks. I still think that the known benefits of a low-carb diet outweigh the potential risk. However, this study suggests that the effect might not be very important or it might be critically important and explain why diabetics are risk-equivalent to established coronary disease. unless the production of ketones gets really out of control and can be prevented altogether by sufficient levels of vitamin E or other antioxidants. Given HOPE trial results, anti-oxidants such as vitamin E are unlikely to prevent lipid peroxidation in intact humans. See above. The children with hyperketonemia did have somewhat higher levels of MDA and depletion of glutatione, but they also had higher blood sugar so that we don't know whether this is due to the ketones or the blood sugar. Given the in vitro data, one would suspect the former. The diabetics with normoketonemia already have lower levels of glutathione compared with the non-diabetic children, although they have almost the same concentration of acetoacetate in the blood. So it seems that elevated blood sugar does have a negative effect on the oxidative state of these children. If it is the concentration of acetoacetate which is responsible for the elevated MDA, it should be easy to show this elevation in people on a ketogenic low-carb diet. If you could point to such a study, you might have an argument. Thorsten -- "Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution" (Theodosius Dobzhansky) |
#107
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Thread archived.
-- "Fetching internet news from usenet for you to read at your leisure" SonoScore :: Winning against heart attack and stroke http://www.sonoscore.com |
#108
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Fetch wrote:
Thread archived. -- "Fetching internet news from usenet for you to read at your leisure" SonoScore :: Winning against heart attack and stroke http://www.sonoscore.com Patrick, This probably is not going to win you many friends from ASDLC. Humbly, Andrew -- Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-Certified Cardiologist http://www.heartmdphd.com/ |
#109
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Ketosis, Ketogenic diets and atherosclerosis
Fetch wrote:
Thread archived. Good spread of viewpoints. I wish the headers were trimmed, but I can't suggest how to do that. Dunno how. Nice discussion that includes virtually every point pro and con. Good stuff. Pastorio |
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