ARTICLE: Yet another study has shown that the Atkins diet works

Matti Narkia wrote:

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:32:35 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:

Matti Narkia wrote:

attempts to distance oneself from Atkin's dieting snipped

If you had bothered to read my messages carefully, you'd noticed that I have
repeatedly stated that (unlike Atkins?) I favor getting the potential extra
fat from monounsaturated and omega-3 fatty acids.

On the other hand most of the recent LC diet trials have been done with
Atkins' or very similar diet, so when assessing these diets one has to refer
to these diets. The results with these diets have been surprisingly good
_despite_ some aspects in them which IMHO could be improved.

What is your agenda, Matti?

To find the truth.

Your presentations are awfully one-sided for that.

What's yours?

Being God's humble servant.

To preserve the current dogma no matter
what?


No.

God's humble servant,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:15:29 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:


What is your agenda, Matti?

To find the truth.

Your presentations are awfully one-sided for that.

My, my, see who's "talking"? Dr. Objectivity, I assume? Or is it Dr.
Open-mindness?

BTW, I strongly disagree with your opinion. I don't often express my
opinions, just present the facts, usually in the form of studies. More often
than not these have been needed to correct your erroneous statements. No
wonder you feel they are "one-sided", because very rarely the presented
facts side with your statements or with your beliefs, your "truth" so to
speak.

--
Matti Narkia

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:15:29 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:

Matti Narkia wrote:

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:32:35 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:

What is your agenda, Matti?

To find the truth.


What's yours?

Being God's humble servant.

Good for you, if it keeps you happy and out of mischief, but that hardly has
any relevance to these discussions or to science for that matter.

--
Matti Narkia

Thorsten Schier wrote:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Matti Narkia wrote:

Sat, 25 Oct 2003 03:36:24 GMT in article
m "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,
MD/PhD" wrote:

Valley Of Mu_n wrote:

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:25:31 -0500, Aaron Baugher
wrote:

Why should the AHA care what diet works, if their real concern is
helping people with heart problems?

The AMA is not only concerned with your heart. They do care about the
short and long term effects of any diet on the whole of the person.

How long will embarrassment over
past mistakes trump doing the right thing now?

The AHA doesn't consider it the right thing.

The AHA is not alone.

From Dr. Barry Sears (2/24/2000):

"Finally, the longer you stay in ketosis, you begin to oxidize
lipoproteins, so these are long-term consequences which begin to explain
why high protein diets fail."

Source:

http://www.usda.gov/cnpp/Seminars/GND/Proceedings.txt

That is your "evidence"?.

Evidence that the AHA is not alone in their sentiments?

The answer is "yes".

Barry Sears' unsubstantiated oral statement over
three years ago without any references whatsoever to back it up?

Dr. Sears' statement was not contested by Dr. Atkins.

Dr. Atkins spoke before Dr. Sears so he couldn't contest this in his
presentation. The discussion was too short for everyone to be able to
contest everything they might not like about what the others said.

You have to
do "much" better than that.


Not really. See below.


Pertinent research:

http://tinyurl.com/s8mp

"This study demonstrates that incubation of AA with normal RBCs in
phosphate-buffered saline (37 degrees C for 24 h) resulted in marked GSH
depletion, oxidized
glutathione accumulation, hydroxyl radical generation, and increased
membrane lipid peroxidation."

Note that these are *normal* red blood cells (RBCs) incubated under
physiological
conditions with AA (acetoacetate is a ketone that *is* elevated with
ketogenic LC
dieting) resulting in measurable toxic (bad) effects on the cells.
Especially
concerning is the generation of oxygen free radicals and peroxidation of
membrane
lipids.

As ha already been shown, this applies only to type 1 diabetes patients as
authors mention in their conclusion.

This in vitro experiment being done under *normal* physiological conditions (no
hyperglycemia) makes it applicable to isolated hyperketonemia (ie ketogenic LC
dieting). Would suggest you read the entire paper.

The full text of this study is at

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org.../48/9/1850.pdf


Yes, it is. Would suggest you read it in its entirety especially paying
attention to Figure 1.


A quote from there gives one explanation why this study applies only to type
1 diabetes:

"The blood concentration of ketone bodies may reach 10 mmol/l in
diabetic patients with severe ketosis, versus 0.5 mmol/l in normal
people (24,25)."


Normal people are not having hyperketonemia from being on *ketogenic* LC diets.
One would expect folks on *ketogenic* LC diets to have serum ketone
concentrations somewhere between 0.5 micromol/ml and 10 micromol/ml. Now look
again at Figure 1 paying close attention to MDA (marker of lipid peroxidation,
which is the bad stuff). I would not want any of that increasing in my
arteries.

They used rather high concentrations of ketones. In the second part of
the study, where they studied hyperketonemia vs. normoketonemia in
diabetics the children in the hyperketonemia-group had a mean level of
acetoacetate (which was the only ketone which showed any significant
effect on membrane peroxidation) of 0,71 micromol/ml. In the first part
however, they seem to have used much higher concentrations in most
tests. Their tables show the effects of concentrations of acetoacetate
of 5 and 20 micromol/ml.

Figure 1 is the only hint

It's more than a hint. It is data.

that they investigated also the effect of
lower concentrations. This figure shows only a small effect for
concentrations of about 1 micromol/ml.


That small physiological effect may lead to a big clinical effect.


Then they found out that even the effect of the very high concentrations
of acetoacetate on MDA was prevented by a small amount of vitamin E (0,1
micromol/ml).


This is not a small amount. Since vitamin E is lipid soluble, there are also issues
of compartmentalization where the Vitamin E likely ends up sitting in fat cells where
it is least likely to confer any protection. Recall vitamin E was ineffective in
preventing heart attacks in the HOPE trial.


So the effect of acetoacetate on membrane peroxidation might be a
possbile concern.

Glad you agree.

However, this study suggests that the effect might not
be very important

or it might be critically important and explain why diabetics are risk-equivalent to
established coronary disease.

unless the production of ketones gets really out of
control and can be prevented altogether by sufficient levels of vitamin
E or other antioxidants.

Given HOPE trial results, anti-oxidants such as vitamin E are unlikely to prevent
lipid peroxidation in intact humans.



The children with hyperketonemia did have somewhat higher levels of MDA
and depletion of glutatione, but they also had higher blood sugar so
that we don't know whether this is due to the ketones or the blood
sugar.


Given the in vitro data, one would suspect the former.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Matti Narkia wrote:

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:15:29 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:


What is your agenda, Matti?

To find the truth.

Your presentations are awfully one-sided for that.

My, my, see who's "talking"? Dr. Objectivity, I assume? Or is it Dr.
Open-mindness?

BTW, I strongly disagree with your opinion. I don't often express my
opinions, just present the facts, usually in the form of studies. More often
than not these have been needed to correct your erroneous statements. No
wonder you feel they are "one-sided", because very rarely the presented
facts side with your statements or with your beliefs, your "truth" so to
speak.


Sounds like I hit a raw nerve.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Matti Narkia wrote:

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:15:29 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:

Matti Narkia wrote:

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:32:35 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:

What is your agenda, Matti?

To find the truth.


What's yours?

Being God's humble servant.

Good for you, if it keeps you happy and out of mischief, but that hardly has
any relevance to these discussions or to science for that matter.

You asked the question. I answered it truthfully. Truth is relevant in any
discussion.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:07:10 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:

Given HOPE trial results, anti-oxidants such as vitamin E are unlikely to prevent
lipid peroxidation in intact humans.

Oh yeah? See

Huang HY, Appel LJ, Croft KD, Miller ER 3rd, Mori TA, Puddey IB.
Effects of vitamin C and vitamin E on in vivo lipid peroxidation: results
of a randomized controlled trial.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Sep;76(3):549-55.
PMID: 12197998 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/76/3/549
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=121979 98&dopt=Abstract

"... CONCLUSIONS: Supplementation with vitamin C or vitamin E alone
reduced lipid peroxidation to a similar extent. ..."

Salonen RM, Nyyssonen K, Kaikkonen J, Porkkala-Sarataho E, Voutilainen S,
Rissanen TH, Tuomainen TP, Valkonen VP, Ristonmaa U, Lakka HM, Vanharanta M,
Salonen JT, Poulsen HE; Antioxidant Supplementation in Atherosclerosis
Prevention Study.
Six-year effect of combined vitamin C and E supplementation on
atherosclerotic
progression: the Antioxidant Supplementation in Atherosclerosis Prevention
(ASAP) Study.
Circulation. 2003 Feb 25;107(7):947-53.
PMID: 12600905 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=126009 05&dopt=Abstract

"... CONLUSIONS: These data replicate our 3-year findings confirming
that the supplementation with combination of vitamin E and slow-release
vitamin C slows down atherosclerotic progression in
hypercholesterolemic persons."

Salonen JT.
Clinical trials testing cardiovascular benefits of antioxidant
supplementation.
Free Radic Res. 2002 Dec;36(12):1299-306. Review.
PMID: 12607821 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=126078 21&dopt=Abstract

Fang JC, Kinlay S, Beltrame J, Hikiti H, Wainstein M, Behrendt D, Suh J,
Frei B, Mudge GH, Selwyn AP, Ganz P.
Effect of vitamins C and E on progression of transplant-associated
arteriosclerosis: a randomised trial.
Lancet. 2002 Mar 30;359(9312):1108-13.
PMID: 11943259 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=119432 59&dopt=Abstract

"... INTERPRETATION: Supplementation with antioxidant vitamins C and E
retards the early progression of transplant-associated coronary
arteriosclerosis."

Kaikkonen J, Porkkala-Sarataho E, Morrow JD, Roberts LJ 2nd, Nyyssonen K,
Salonen R, Tuomainen TP, Ristonmaa U, Poulsen HE, Salonen JT.
Supplementation with vitamin E but not with vitamin C lowers lipid
peroxidation in vivo in mildly hypercholesterolemic men.
Free Radic Res. 2001 Dec;35(6):967-78.
PMID: 11811547 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=118115 47&dopt=Abstract

"... In conclusion, long-term oral supplementation of clinically
healthy, but hypercholesterolemic men, who have normal vitamin C and E
levels with a reasonable dose of vitamin E lowers lipid peroxidation in
vivo, but a relatively high dose of vitamin C does not. ..."

Dietrich M, Block G, Hudes M, Morrow JD, Norkus EP, Traber MG, Cross CE,
Packer L.
Antioxidant supplementation decreases lipid peroxidation biomarker
F(2)-isoprostanes in plasma of smokers.
Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Jan;11(1):7-13. Erratum in: Cancer
Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 2002 May;11(5):501.
PMID: 11815395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=118153 95&dopt=Abstract

"... Antioxidants decrease smoking-related lipid peroxidation markers of
oxidative stress in humans with high BMI. ..."

Azen SP, Qian D, Mack WJ, Sevanian A, Selzer RH, Liu CR, Liu CH, Hodis HN.
Effect of supplementary antioxidant vitamin intake on carotid arterial wall
intima-media thickness in a controlled clinical trial of cholesterol
lowering.
Circulation. 1996 Nov 15;94(10):2369-72.
PMID: 8921775 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=892177 5&dopt=Abstract

"... CONCLUSIONS: Supplementary vitamin E intake appears to be
effective in reducing the progression of atherosclerosis in subjects
not treated with lipid-lowering drugs while the process is still
confined to the arterial wall (early preintrusive atherosclerosis)."

Hodis HN, Mack WJ, LaBree L, Cashin-Hemphill L, Sevanian A, Johnson R, Azen
SP.
Serial coronary angiographic evidence that antioxidant vitamin intake
reduces progression of coronary artery atherosclerosis.
JAMA. 1995 Jun 21;273(23):1849-54.
PMID: 7776501 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=777650 1&dopt=Abstract

"... CONCLUSIONS--These results indicate an association between
supplementary vitamin E intake and angiographically demonstrated
reduction in coronary artery lesion progression. ..."

--
Matti Narkia

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:10:36 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:

Matti Narkia wrote:

Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:15:29 -0500 in article
"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD"
wrote:


What is your agenda, Matti?

To find the truth.

Your presentations are awfully one-sided for that.

My, my, see who's "talking"? Dr. Objectivity, I assume? Or is it Dr.
Open-mindness?

BTW, I strongly disagree with your opinion. I don't often express my
opinions, just present the facts, usually in the form of studies. More often
than not these have been needed to correct your erroneous statements. No
wonder you feel they are "one-sided", because very rarely the presented
facts side with your statements or with your beliefs, your "truth" so to
speak.


Sounds like I hit a raw nerve.

Seems that you have no intention to discuss facts seriously. Ever. I'm not
interested in meta-babble and meaningless one-liners.


--
Matti Narkia

Mars at the Mu_n's Edge at talked on ....

Try swimming 2k in the morning before work.

Not a chance. I keep hitting my head on the bathtub.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap030724.html
Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

ROFL

--
Kitty =^..^=
168/161.6/130
Start: September 2003

Matti Narkia said:

What is your agenda, Matti?
To find the truth. What's yours? To preserve the current dogma no
matter what?
I wish at least it would preserve its email address and stop morphing to
evade kill-files.

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://kanyak.com