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Water loss VS fat loss



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 3rd, 2008, 06:50 PM posted to alt.support.diet
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Posts: 502
Default Water loss VS fat loss

I'm a bit confused, as usual... By going low-carb, I lost 8 pounds
over a period of 6 days. I urinated much more during those 6 days. How
do I know if it is fat loss or water loss? The way I understand it, is
that when you gain fat, it is actually the fat cells that you already
have that retain more water. Let's say you lose fat. Does that mean
that the extra water that your fat cells retained are now released?
Then is not it water loss as well? Is water loss a completely
different phenomenon? I'm a visual person, so I need images with
explanations to fully understand a phenomenon. Thanks.
  #2  
Old December 3rd, 2008, 07:57 PM
Lokes Lokes is offline
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Posts: 53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by View Post
I'm a bit confused, as usual... By going low-carb, I lost 8 pounds
over a period of 6 days. I urinated much more during those 6 days. How
do I know if it is fat loss or water loss? The way I understand it, is
that when you gain fat, it is actually the fat cells that you already
have that retain more water. Let's say you lose fat. Does that mean
that the extra water that your fat cells retained are now released?
Then is not it water loss as well? Is water loss a completely
different phenomenon? I'm a visual person, so I need images with
explanations to fully understand a phenomenon. Thanks.
8 pounds in 6 days, really awesome. Are you using diuretics? Are they natural diuretics? What I understand was, water intake helps in flushing out toxins from the fat cells, which are stored in fat tissue and released into the bloodstream. In order to burn fat cells, the fat cells first will have to be free of excess water and toxins.
It is interesting, I also want to know how this could happen?
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  #3  
Old December 3rd, 2008, 08:34 PM posted to alt.support.diet
James G
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Posts: 113
Default Water loss VS fat loss

On Dec 3, 12:50*pm, "
wrote:
I'm a bit confused, as usual... By going low-carb, I lost 8 pounds
over a period of 6 days. I urinated much more during those 6 days. How
do I know if it is fat loss or water loss? The way I understand it, is
that when you gain fat, it is actually the fat cells that you already
have that retain more water. Let's say you lose fat. Does that mean
that the extra water that your fat cells retained are now released?
Then is not it water loss as well? Is water loss a completely
different phenomenon? I'm a visual person, so I need images with
explanations to fully understand a phenomenon. Thanks.


My understanding is that the actual breakdown of fat (via hydrolysis)
uses up water. I believe this is why hydration is often toted as a
cornerstone to diet.

Were you hydrating better than usual? I notice that if I have an off
day where I don't carry drinks around with me (usually some diet iced
tea or diet soda; I know, it's not as good as water, but it DOES
hydrate me), I will urinate quite a bit less, and the urine is quite
colored (indicating the obvious dehydration). When I begin to drink
regularly again, I find I start using the bathroom quite often.

I couldn't cite anything concrete, but again, my understanding is that
the body will hoard what little water it has, if it perceives
'drought,' and will release it when you begin to give it water on a
consistent basis.


Either way, I try to completely eliminate water bounce by weighing
myself first thing in the morning, AFTER using the bathroom.
  #4  
Old December 3rd, 2008, 11:24 PM posted to alt.support.diet
Doug Freyburger
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Posts: 1,866
Default Water loss VS fat loss

" wrote:

I'm a bit confused, as usual... By going low-carb, I lost 8 pounds
over a period of 6 days. I urinated much more during those 6 days. How
do I know if it is fat loss or water loss?


You ask that like they are mutually exclusive. What you really
want to know is what percentage of that 8 pounds is fat I think.
Some of it is, but most of it isn't.

There are two main limitations on fat loss.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindand...w.php?artID=35

This paper describes the maximum rate existing fat can release
its calories. The rate is a bit under 1% of the fat mass per day
can be lost at a maximum. If you have 100 pounds of fat on
your body and it were possible to lose the max you'd lose 1
pound per day the first day then gradually slow down. This
limitation is why folks slow down loss rates over time and why
folks close to their ideal weight loss very slowly.

The second limitation is calories. Fat is roughly 3500-4000
calories per pound. Human metabolism runs anywhere from
800 calories per day resting in starvation and 4000+ calories per
day doing world class athletics. Actual normal humans in
normal circumstances have a narrower range but the variation
is still wide. Still, anyone who manages to lose 1000 calories
a day of fat is doing extremely well. At 1000 calories per day
that's a maximum rate in most circumstances of 2 pounds
per week. Folks with over 100 pounds to lose sometimes
break this limit but otherwise it is rare.

So the practical limits are 2 pounds per week dropping
gradually to much less as you get close to your ideal weight.

Basically in 6 days it's unlikely you've lost even 2 pounds in
fat out of those 8 pounds.

For comparison carbs are 4 calories per gram and a gram of
carb is stored dissolved in 3-5 grams of water. That's a
carb+water-to-dissolve-it of 1 calorie per gram. At 1 calorie
per gram if you burn 1000 calories of stored carbs you'll lose
2 pounds for the day. Water weight can drop that fast.

The amount of stored carbs and the water it is dissolved in is
strictly limited. Once the stored amount has dropped to a
minimum it's gone and the water loss stopped. Six days in
you likely hit that minimum - Did any carb cravings go away?
Carb cravings go away when the stored carbs are gone. I
believe this is an evolved metabolic response to keep us from
getting confused in the winter.

So your loss will have been somewhere between all 8 pounds
in the form of carbs plus water and 1+ pounds of fat with 7-
pounds of water.

The way I understand it, is
that when you gain fat, it is actually the fat cells that you already
have that retain more water.


No. When you gain fat the fat cells end up with more fat.

Let's say you lose fat. Does that mean
that the extra water that your fat cells retained are now released?


Actually the opposite can happen. Folks tend to lose in bursts.
They don't see a new low for a week or two then whoosh a new
low appears that's a couple of pounds below the old low. A lot
of folks think this is because fat cells replace fat with water for
a bit then release the water in a whoosh.

Then is not it water loss as well? Is water loss a completely
different phenomenon? I'm a visual person, so I need images with
explanations to fully understand a phenomenon. Thanks.


Loss of water is not loss of fat. Water isn't fat. Very many
people diet to lose fat. Few diet to specifically lose water.
Water retention happens with or without fat cells hoarding it
in place of recently lost fat, with or without muscle cells
hoarding it in response to a new exercise plan, with or without
eating salty food. Average your scale readings across a week
to be able to filter out the water retention variation as noise
because that's what it is - Water is not fat therefor water
weight is noise not gain or loss.
  #5  
Old December 4th, 2008, 03:49 AM posted to alt.support.diet
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Posts: 502
Default Water loss VS fat loss

On 3 déc, 17:24, Doug Freyburger wrote:
" wrote:

I'm a bit confused, as usual... By going low-carb, I lost 8 pounds
over a period of 6 days. I urinated much more during those 6 days. How
do I know if it is fat loss or water loss?


You ask that like they are mutually exclusive. *What you really
want to know is what percentage of that 8 pounds is fat I think.
Some of it is, but most of it isn't.

There are two main limitations on fat loss.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindand...w.php?artID=35

This paper describes the maximum rate existing fat can release
its calories. *The rate is a bit under 1% of the fat mass per day
can be lost at a maximum. *If you have 100 pounds of fat on
your body and it were possible to lose the max you'd lose 1
pound per day the first day then gradually slow down. *This
limitation is why folks slow down loss rates over time and why
folks close to their ideal weight loss very slowly.

The second limitation is calories. *Fat is roughly 3500-4000
calories per pound. *Human metabolism runs anywhere from
800 calories per day resting in starvation and 4000+ calories per
day doing world class athletics. *Actual normal humans in
normal circumstances have a narrower range but the variation
is still wide. *Still, anyone who manages to lose 1000 calories
a day of fat is doing extremely well. *At 1000 calories per day
that's a maximum rate in most circumstances of 2 pounds
per week. *Folks with over 100 pounds to lose sometimes
break this limit but otherwise it is rare.

So the practical limits are 2 pounds per week dropping
gradually to much less as you get close to your ideal weight.

Basically in 6 days it's unlikely you've lost even 2 pounds in
fat out of those 8 pounds.

For comparison carbs are 4 calories per gram and a gram of
carb is stored dissolved in 3-5 grams of water. *That's a
carb+water-to-dissolve-it of 1 calorie per gram. *At 1 calorie
per gram if you burn 1000 calories of stored carbs you'll lose
2 pounds for the day. *Water weight can drop that fast.

The amount of stored carbs and the water it is dissolved in is
strictly limited. *Once the stored amount has dropped to a
minimum it's gone and the water loss stopped. *Six days in
you likely hit that minimum - Did any carb cravings go away?
Carb cravings go away when the stored carbs are gone. *I
believe this is an evolved metabolic response to keep us from
getting confused in the winter.

So your loss will have been somewhere between all 8 pounds
in the form of carbs plus water and 1+ pounds of fat with 7-
pounds of water.

The way I understand it, is
that when you gain fat, it is actually the fat cells that you already
have that retain more water.


No. *When you gain fat the fat cells end up with more fat.

Let's say you lose fat. Does that mean
that the extra water that your fat cells retained are now released?


Actually the opposite can happen. *Folks tend to lose in bursts.
They don't see a new low for a week or two then whoosh a new
low appears that's a couple of pounds below the old low. *A lot
of folks think this is because fat cells replace fat with water for
a bit then release the water in a whoosh.

Then is not it water loss as well? Is water loss a completely
different phenomenon? I'm a visual person, so I need images with
explanations to fully understand a phenomenon. Thanks.


Loss of water is not loss of fat. *Water isn't fat. *Very many
people diet to lose fat. *Few diet to specifically lose water.
Water retention happens with or without fat cells hoarding it
in place of recently lost fat, with or without muscle cells
hoarding it in response to a new exercise plan, with or without
eating salty food. *Average your scale readings across a week
to be able to filter out the water retention variation as noise
because that's what it is - Water is not fat therefor water
weight is noise not gain or loss.


Gee! Thanks for all the info, but it's way too much for me to digest
(pun intended). I'm just back from the public library where I rent two
books on the human's body. There are written for 11-year-olds, and
that's what I need, I guess... Once I have a better knowledge, I'll
get back to you. I know James and you are very helpful and
knowledgeable, and never put people down because they don't know too
much on the subject.
  #6  
Old December 4th, 2008, 05:02 PM posted to alt.support.diet
Doug Freyburger
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Posts: 1,866
Default Water loss VS fat loss

James G wrote:

Either way, I try to completely eliminate water bounce by weighing
myself first thing in the morning, AFTER using the bathroom.


This minimizes water retention bounce but does not eliminate
it. Over time I tracked my weight daily for over a year and did
weekly averages. It works well for anyone who doesn't have
an emotional reaction to water retention swings on the scale.
It took me, hmmm, about two years to acheive that emotional
detachment to get to the point I could comfortably weigh daily
and just note the swings. Fortunately for my low carb learning
efforts I had done those two years back in my low fat days so
I went into low carb already able to handle daily readings. Not
many folks start out a new diet able to handle that.

I think it's important in maintenance to know your water
retention swing. You always know if you're on or off plan and
staying on plan is proof against storing new fat so any swing
why on plan without a cheat has to be random water retention.
Mine ended up 6 pounds. Consider - If I tried to stay in a 4
pound range in maintenance it would be absolutely impossible
for me to do so. With a 6 pound water retention swing no
amount of effort can ever be sufficient to keep my scale
readings in a 4 pound range.

It's a conundrum - Folks should only get on the scale at a
frequency they can handle emotionally, but folks need to know
their random water retnetion swing to know how to set their
maintenance swing range. It means weighings need to be
done in a way as to gradually build emotional ability to handle
them.
  #7  
Old December 5th, 2008, 12:11 AM posted to alt.support.diet
James G
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Posts: 113
Default Water loss VS fat loss

On Dec 4, 11:02*am, Doug Freyburger wrote:

It's a conundrum - Folks should only get on the scale at a
frequency they can handle emotionally, but folks need to know
their random water retnetion swing to know how to set their
maintenance swing range. *It means weighings need to be
done in a way as to gradually build emotional ability to handle
them.


Good point. I always forget that other people don't like to weigh
themselves daily.

Personally, I find myself lucky to never swing more than a pound or
two, weighing myself in the morning like this.
  #8  
Old December 5th, 2008, 01:30 AM posted to alt.support.diet
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Posts: 502
Default Water loss VS fat loss

On 4 déc, 18:11, James G wrote:
On Dec 4, 11:02*am, Doug Freyburger wrote:



It's a conundrum - Folks should only get on the scale at a
frequency they can handle emotionally, but folks need to know
their random water retnetion swing to know how to set their
maintenance swing range. *It means weighings need to be
done in a way as to gradually build emotional ability to handle
them.


Good point. *I always forget that other people don't like to weigh
themselves daily.

Personally, I find myself lucky to never swing more than a pound or
two, weighing myself in the morning like this.


Off the point you guys are making, but two things that may make some
people curious about weight fluctuation: I often weight one pound less
between the time I go to sleep and the time I wake up even though I
did not visit the washroom. I brought the point a few years ago, and
someone said the water loss is in the breathing. The second thing is
that I sometimes weight one more pound after taking a shower. Did my
body really suck up a pound of water?
  #9  
Old December 5th, 2008, 04:11 PM posted to alt.support.diet
Doug Freyburger
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Posts: 1,866
Default Water loss VS fat loss

" wrote:

Off the point you guys are making, but two things that may make some
people curious about weight fluctuation:


You give two examples of why it is a bad idea to get on the
scale more than once per day. Doing so very often tends to
be obsessive behavior with irrational motives because the time
scale for fat loss is month to month (not a single dieter in
history likes the fact but disliking a fact does not convert it
to fiction) - Getting on the scale more than once per day is
wishing for that which is physically impossible.

I often weight one pound less
between the time I go to sleep and the time I wake up even though I
did not visit the washroom.


I sweat while I sleep in addition to breathing. Sweat is
water and therefor not fat. Taking readings inside of a
single day can only tell me about water, food, liquid,
stuff moving through my bowels and so on. None of that
is fat and therefore no extra readings per day can
possibily have a rational reason related to a program
aimed at fat loss. Of course motivation to start dieting
in the first place is often an emotional decision not an
objective mecdical decision.

I brought the point a few years ago, and
someone said the water loss is in the breathing. The second thing is
that I sometimes weight one more pound after taking a shower. Did my
body really suck up a pound of water?


Does your scale really have an accuracy and repeatability
of less than a pound? No. Back in junior high school
science classes I remember learning about error bars and
estimating the size of data errors when doing experiments.
Is this no longer taught in schools? Given the confusion
two presidential elections ago when the vote in Florida came
out closer than the size of the error bars I guess not. All
instrumentation has some amount of error built into its
readings.
  #10  
Old December 5th, 2008, 05:33 PM posted to alt.support.diet
[email protected]
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Posts: 502
Default Water loss VS fat loss

On 5 déc, 10:11, Doug Freyburger wrote:
" wrote:

Off the point you guys are making, but two things that may make some
people curious about weight fluctuation:


You give two examples of why it is a bad idea to get on the
scale *more than once per day. *Doing so very often tends to
be obsessive behavior with irrational motives because the time
scale for fat loss is month to month (not a single dieter in
history likes the fact but disliking a fact does not convert it
to fiction) - Getting on the scale more than once per day is
wishing for that which is physically impossible.

I often weight one pound less
between the time I go to sleep and the time I wake up even though I
did not visit the washroom.


I sweat while I sleep in addition to breathing. *Sweat is
water and therefor not fat. *Taking readings inside of a
single day can only tell me about water, food, liquid,
stuff moving through my bowels and so on. *None of that
is fat and therefore no extra readings per day can
possibily have a rational reason related to a program
aimed at fat loss. *Of course motivation to start dieting
in the first place is often an emotional decision not an
objective mecdical decision.

I brought the point a few years ago, and
someone said the water loss is in the breathing. The second thing is
that I sometimes weight one more pound after taking a shower. Did my
body really suck up a pound of water?


Does your scale really have an accuracy and repeatability
of less than a pound? *No. *Back in junior high school
science classes I remember learning about error bars and
estimating the size of data errors when doing experiments.
Is this no longer taught in schools? *Given the confusion
two presidential elections ago when the vote in Florida came
out closer than the size of the error bars I guess not. *All
instrumentation has some amount of error built into its
readings.


I understand what you're saying. But why is that when the weight
changes in those examples, it's always downwards in the case of a
night sleep and always upwards in the case of a shower? If it was just
a scale malfunction, then should not it be the way around at least
sometimes? How many scales will I have to try until I'm convinced
that the phenomenon I'm talking about is real and not just some kind
of scale malfunction?
 




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