KimKins or AtSill by Kimmer

Go back to the '72 version induction phase. Which in 1997 is where I
learned about Atkins. 2002 was much later after Atkins 'took off' and
became more main stream. I wish I had my book from 97 which was based on
his 72 initial publication.

Now, over the years, and everyone is different, everyone has their own ratio
that they will lose weight on. Ratio of Fat/Protein/Carbs. For example, my
ratio was close to a 75%/20%/5% and I lost weight steady. I can not do that
10 years later. Some people will not lose weight on dairy, others will.
Some will not lose with soda, others will. The TX Low Carb list has/had a
special diet to see what foods worked best with your system and everyone is
different in terms of food tolerances.

AS Atkins evolved and more things were learned, it has changed for each
person. So did his '02 book, he differed from his '72 book. All I'm saying
in his '72 book, that I read in '97, he did not say, go wild with fat, but
he said you can use it and if you had to make choices between butter and
margarine, go butter. If you wanted milk in your coffee/tea go heavy cream.
But again, on induction these things were limited until you were in On Going
Weight Lose Phase.

However that is not why I posted. To dispute how Atkins plan initial 1972
or updated 2002 are different. And if you don't have a post '02 book then
we are talking green apples and red apples. Still apples but different
varieties.

Again, to me KimKins or the K/E, is an Atkins-Stillman combo diet. With an
emphasize on lean meats in portion sizes (Stillman), veggies* and fat as
needed (Atkins circa 1972).

*I remember back in Feb 98 (because I had finally did Atkins as prescribed
in the book and lost 25 lbs in 1 month and excited took hold of me), you
could actually call the clinic in NY and get advice on the diet. The nurse
told me they prefer people eat salad veggies on induction and that you could
stay on induction for the entire weight lose phase. Atkins would also
prescribe thyroid meds if needed, but you had to go to his clinic per the
nurse. But anyway, even then Atkins was evolving and morphing from his
initial '72 plan.


"Hollywood" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 18, 11:26 am, "Bob in CT" wrote:
On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:20:51 -0400, Roger Zoul
wrote:

2Phat wrote:
:: Hollywood, Atkins induction is fat free in the original version.
:: Meat and veggies. He just didn't emphasize 'lean' meats and
:: quantity like Stillman did/does.

What original version are you referring to?

I thought Atkins was the antithesis of fat free?

--
Bob in CT

I thought it was all Bacon and Brie ;-)

Very quickly, from DANDR 02, pp125-125
Some acceptable foods:
Bacon
Duck
Eggs
3-4 oz daily of full-fat, firm, soft, and semi-soft aged cheeses like:
cheddar
cow, sheep and goat cheese (I think water buffalo mozzarella is cool
too, and that's higher fat %age than cow milk)
cream cheese
Gouda
Mozz.
etc

On p127
Butter is good. Ditto Olive Oil.
"You need not remove the skin and fat from meat or fowl.

also:
"I cannot stress strongly enough that trying to do a LOW FAT version
of ATKINS will interfere with fat buring and derail your weight
loss." (emphasis added)

On p129
10-20 Olives
1/2 small avocado
1 oz sour cream
2 oz unsweetened heavy cream (These are all pretty high fat items,
iirc)

Please note: this is squarely in the chapter entitled, "And Away You
Go: The Induction Phase"

I think it's pretty clear that, at least in 02, the Atkins New Diet
Revolution was not what anyone would call low fat in any usual
interpretation of the word. If you ate something like a fat fast as
your usual diet, you might call it low fat, but that's about it.

-Hollywood, always happy to go to the textbook when it's at hand.

On 18 Apr 2007 09:51:21 -0700, Doug Freyburger wrote:

"2Phat" wrote:

Atkins induction is fat free in the original version. Meat and
veggies. He just didn't emphasize 'lean' meats and quantity like Stillman
did/does.

Have you read any of the Atkins books? In the 1972 version
it says don't avoid fat. In the 1993 and 1999 editions it says
"Be shockingly unafraid of fat" and there's a warning that
combining low fat with low carb will "derail" your loss.

Atkins should have been shockingly afraid of lying, iced sidewalks and
how those two things can derail your reputation and life.

2Phat wrote:
:: Go back to the '72 version induction phase. Which in 1997 is where I
:: learned about Atkins. 2002 was much later after Atkins 'took off'
:: and became more main stream. I wish I had my book from 97 which was
:: based on his 72 initial publication.
::
:: Now, over the years, and everyone is different, everyone has their
:: own ratio that they will lose weight on. Ratio of
:: Fat/Protein/Carbs. For example, my ratio was close to a 75%/20%/5%
:: and I lost weight steady. I can not do that 10 years later. Some
:: people will not lose weight on dairy, others will. Some will not
:: lose with soda, others will. The TX Low Carb list has/had a special
:: diet to see what foods worked best with your system and everyone is
:: different in terms of food tolerances.
::
:: AS Atkins evolved and more things were learned, it has changed for
:: each person. So did his '02 book, he differed from his '72 book.
:: All I'm saying in his '72 book, that I read in '97, he did not say,
:: go wild with fat

None of his books say "go wild with fat".

, but he said you can use it and if you had to make
:: choices between butter and margarine, go butter. If you wanted milk
:: in your coffee/tea go heavy cream. But again, on induction these
:: things were limited until you were in On Going Weight Lose Phase.

How were they limited?

::
:: However that is not why I posted. To dispute how Atkins plan
:: initial 1972 or updated 2002 are different. And if you don't have a
:: post '02 book then we are talking green apples and red apples.
:: Still apples but different varieties.
::
:: Again, to me KimKins or the K/E, is an Atkins-Stillman combo diet.
:: With an emphasize on lean meats in portion sizes (Stillman),
:: veggies* and fat as needed (Atkins circa 1972).
::
:: *I remember back in Feb 98 (because I had finally did Atkins as
:: prescribed in the book and lost 25 lbs in 1 month and excited took
:: hold of me), you could actually call the clinic in NY and get advice
:: on the diet. The nurse told me they prefer people eat salad veggies
:: on induction and that you could stay on induction for the entire
:: weight lose phase. Atkins would also prescribe thyroid meds if
:: needed, but you had to go to his clinic per the nurse. But anyway,
:: even then Atkins was evolving and morphing from his initial '72 plan.
::
::
:: "Hollywood" wrote in message
:: oups.com...
::: On Apr 18, 11:26 am, "Bob in CT" wrote:
:::: On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:20:51 -0400, Roger Zoul
:::: wrote:
::::
::::: 2Phat wrote:
::::::: Hollywood, Atkins induction is fat free in the original version.
::::::: Meat and veggies. He just didn't emphasize 'lean' meats and
::::::: quantity like Stillman did/does.
::::
::::: What original version are you referring to?
::::
:::: I thought Atkins was the antithesis of fat free?
::::
:::: --
:::: Bob in CT
:::
::: I thought it was all Bacon and Brie ;-)
:::
::: Very quickly, from DANDR 02, pp125-125
::: Some acceptable foods:
::: Bacon
::: Duck
::: Eggs
::: 3-4 oz daily of full-fat, firm, soft, and semi-soft aged cheeses
::: like: cheddar
::: cow, sheep and goat cheese (I think water buffalo mozzarella is cool
::: too, and that's higher fat %age than cow milk)
::: cream cheese
::: Gouda
::: Mozz.
::: etc
:::
::: On p127
::: Butter is good. Ditto Olive Oil.
::: "You need not remove the skin and fat from meat or fowl.
:::
::: also:
::: "I cannot stress strongly enough that trying to do a LOW FAT version
::: of ATKINS will interfere with fat buring and derail your weight
::: loss." (emphasis added)
:::
::: On p129
::: 10-20 Olives
::: 1/2 small avocado
::: 1 oz sour cream
::: 2 oz unsweetened heavy cream (These are all pretty high fat items,
::: iirc)
:::
::: Please note: this is squarely in the chapter entitled, "And Away You
::: Go: The Induction Phase"
:::
::: I think it's pretty clear that, at least in 02, the Atkins New Diet
::: Revolution was not what anyone would call low fat in any usual
::: interpretation of the word. If you ate something like a fat fast as
::: your usual diet, you might call it low fat, but that's about it.
:::
::: -Hollywood, always happy to go to the textbook when it's at hand.

Roger I think you posted the below comment regarding fat, butter and such.
That is just it, each person is different and each person has to decided for
themselves what caused them to lose weight, what causes them to stall and
what causes them to maintain. For me it was hard because I was following my
old Atkins diet I created for myself.

For instance, way back in Nov. of 97 I started Atkins, however I was playing
around and was also doing CKD, which is for body builders mostly and wasn't
getting anywhere. I was also still using fat free stuff food, because I
really didn't get Atkins fully. I forgot which I found first, Alt Support
Diet (as the low carb ng was not established yet) or others posting about
Atkins. Whichever, that is when I found out how I was doing it wrong and
became enlighten as to what Atkins was all about. Yeah I read the book but
I was holding on to my low fat ways. Okay, in Jan of 98, KFC had their
original rottierie chicken and I use to have that for dinner (skin and all)
with salad and ranch dressing (I hated ranch to this point) and bacon and
eggs for lunch. I started losing weight. The KFC changed and I changed to
chicken breasts, steak and such, still had salad, eggs, bacon, cream cheese
and ranch dressing. Lost 25 lbs in 1 month. As I read more I increased my
fat intake to 75% (or more) of my calories from fat. My weight lose slowed
but it was still coming off an inch lose was amazing! None the less 10
years ago I was a person who would lose at a good steady rate on majority
fat. Today I am not that person as my old diet has not worked for me at all
in losing pounds or inches.

So to answer your question, from a layperson point of view. You have to set
your own rules as to what works for you when it comes to Protein/Fat/Carbs.

Now for the good news! I started K/E on Monday (I didn't get Sunday off to
a good start like I wanted to) and have been very good but not so stick.
Meaning I'm not measuring my food, just looking at the portion. Eating
eggs, chicken breast and salad, drinking herbal tea with splenda did have a
startbucks sugar free vanilla latte with fat free milk, and bunches of
water. I have lost 5 lbs since Monday. I will see what happens over the
next 11 days, April 30th.


"Roger Zoul" wrote in message
...

How were they limited?



2Phat wrote:
:: Go back to the '72 version induction phase. Which in 1997 is where I
:: learned about Atkins. 2002 was much later after Atkins 'took off'
:: and became more main stream. I wish I had my book from 97 which was
:: based on his 72 initial publication.
::
:: Now, over the years, and everyone is different, everyone has their
:: own ratio that they will lose weight on. Ratio of
:: Fat/Protein/Carbs. For example, my ratio was close to a 75%/20%/5%
:: and I lost weight steady. I can not do that 10 years later. Some
:: people will not lose weight on dairy, others will. Some will not
:: lose with soda, others will. The TX Low Carb list has/had a special
:: diet to see what foods worked best with your system and everyone is
:: different in terms of food tolerances.
::
:: AS Atkins evolved and more things were learned, it has changed for
:: each person. So did his '02 book, he differed from his '72 book.
:: All I'm saying in his '72 book, that I read in '97, he did not say,
:: go wild with fat

None of his books say "go wild with fat".

, but he said you can use it and if you had to make
:: choices between butter and margarine, go butter. If you wanted milk
:: in your coffee/tea go heavy cream. But again, on induction these
:: things were limited until you were in On Going Weight Lose Phase.

How were they limited?

::
:: However that is not why I posted. To dispute how Atkins plan
:: initial 1972 or updated 2002 are different. And if you don't have a
:: post '02 book then we are talking green apples and red apples.
:: Still apples but different varieties.
::
:: Again, to me KimKins or the K/E, is an Atkins-Stillman combo diet.
:: With an emphasize on lean meats in portion sizes (Stillman),
:: veggies* and fat as needed (Atkins circa 1972).
::
:: *I remember back in Feb 98 (because I had finally did Atkins as
:: prescribed in the book and lost 25 lbs in 1 month and excited took
:: hold of me), you could actually call the clinic in NY and get advice
:: on the diet. The nurse told me they prefer people eat salad veggies
:: on induction and that you could stay on induction for the entire
:: weight lose phase. Atkins would also prescribe thyroid meds if
:: needed, but you had to go to his clinic per the nurse. But anyway,
:: even then Atkins was evolving and morphing from his initial '72 plan.
::
::
:: "Hollywood" wrote in message
:: oups.com...
::: On Apr 18, 11:26 am, "Bob in CT" wrote:
:::: On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 11:20:51 -0400, Roger Zoul
:::: wrote:
::::
::::: 2Phat wrote:
::::::: Hollywood, Atkins induction is fat free in the original version.
::::::: Meat and veggies. He just didn't emphasize 'lean' meats and
::::::: quantity like Stillman did/does.
::::
::::: What original version are you referring to?
::::
:::: I thought Atkins was the antithesis of fat free?
::::
:::: --
:::: Bob in CT
:::
::: I thought it was all Bacon and Brie ;-)
:::
::: Very quickly, from DANDR 02, pp125-125
::: Some acceptable foods:
::: Bacon
::: Duck
::: Eggs
::: 3-4 oz daily of full-fat, firm, soft, and semi-soft aged cheeses
::: like: cheddar
::: cow, sheep and goat cheese (I think water buffalo mozzarella is cool
::: too, and that's higher fat %age than cow milk)
::: cream cheese
::: Gouda
::: Mozz.
::: etc
:::
::: On p127
::: Butter is good. Ditto Olive Oil.
::: "You need not remove the skin and fat from meat or fowl.
:::
::: also:
::: "I cannot stress strongly enough that trying to do a LOW FAT version
::: of ATKINS will interfere with fat buring and derail your weight
::: loss." (emphasis added)
:::
::: On p129
::: 10-20 Olives
::: 1/2 small avocado
::: 1 oz sour cream
::: 2 oz unsweetened heavy cream (These are all pretty high fat items,
::: iirc)
:::
::: Please note: this is squarely in the chapter entitled, "And Away You
::: Go: The Induction Phase"
:::
::: I think it's pretty clear that, at least in 02, the Atkins New Diet
::: Revolution was not what anyone would call low fat in any usual
::: interpretation of the word. If you ate something like a fat fast as
::: your usual diet, you might call it low fat, but that's about it.
:::
::: -Hollywood, always happy to go to the textbook when it's at hand.

2Phat wrote:
Go back to the '72 version induction phase. Which in 1997 is where I
learned about Atkins. 2002 was much later after Atkins 'took off' and
became more main stream. I wish I had my book from 97 which was based on
his 72 initial publication.

Don't have the 72 publication, but this is, well, lightly relevant.
The information from DANDR is pretty easily accessible on the
internet.

Now, over the years, and everyone is different, everyone has their own ratio
that they will lose weight on. Ratio of Fat/Protein/Carbs. For example, my
ratio was close to a 75%/20%/5% and I lost weight steady. I can not do that
10 years later. Some people will not lose weight on dairy, others will.
Some will not lose with soda, others will. The TX Low Carb list has/had a
special diet to see what foods worked best with your system and everyone is
different in terms of food tolerances.

As I understand it (and did in the two times I have worked Atkins),
this is the point of the restriction of Induction and the gradual
easement into other foods in OWL. Protein Power doesn't bother with
this. If you can fit potatoes into your carb limit, rock on. No value
judgement, but for me, both approaches work, but either something in
me changed around long term compliance or PPLP is easier to LT comply
with. I suspect the former.

AS Atkins evolved and more things were learned, it has changed for each
person. So did his '02 book, he differed from his '72 book. All I'm saying
in his '72 book, that I read in '97, he did not say, go wild with fat, but
he said you can use it and if you had to make choices between butter and
margarine, go butter. If you wanted milk in your coffee/tea go heavy cream.
But again, on induction these things were limited until you were in On Going
Weight Lose Phase.

at no point in any book does Dr. A suggest going wild with fat. That's
out of the ballpark.

However that is not why I posted. To dispute how Atkins plan initial 1972
or updated 2002 are different. And if you don't have a post '02 book then
we are talking green apples and red apples. Still apples but different
varieties.

Again, to me KimKins or the K/E, is an Atkins-Stillman combo diet. With an
emphasize on lean meats in portion sizes (Stillman), veggies* and fat as
needed (Atkins circa 1972).

I am biting my fingers as I type this, and should bite harder, but I
think your expectations are unrealistic. I know you had great short
term success with some approach towards Atkins in the past, but still,
you are in a very different space now (older for one, on and off the
carousel for two). I know you are going to take this as a poop on
doing K/E or HCG, and maybe it is. Do what you're gonna do, but be
sure to take the time to step back and ask yourself the tough
questions like:
1- What exactly am I doing?
2- Why exactly am I doing these things?
3- Are these things the most responsible solutions to my why answers?
4- If not, what would be the best solutions?

I don't think you've done the homework. You don't need to attempt to
prove me wrong. If you have, that's between you and you. Don't occupy
your mindspace with what Hollywood thinks.

-Hollywood

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:25:38 -0400, Hollywood wrote:


2Phat wrote:
Go back to the '72 version induction phase. Which in 1997 is where I
learned about Atkins. 2002 was much later after Atkins 'took off' and
became more main stream. I wish I had my book from 97 which was based
on
his 72 initial publication.

Don't have the 72 publication, but this is, well, lightly relevant.
The information from DANDR is pretty easily accessible on the
internet.

Now, over the years, and everyone is different, everyone has their own
ratio
that they will lose weight on. Ratio of Fat/Protein/Carbs. For
example, my
ratio was close to a 75%/20%/5% and I lost weight steady. I can not do
that
10 years later. Some people will not lose weight on dairy, others will.
Some will not lose with soda, others will. The TX Low Carb list
has/had a
special diet to see what foods worked best with your system and
everyone is
different in terms of food tolerances.

As I understand it (and did in the two times I have worked Atkins),
this is the point of the restriction of Induction and the gradual
easement into other foods in OWL. Protein Power doesn't bother with
this. If you can fit potatoes into your carb limit, rock on. No value
judgement, but for me, both approaches work, but either something in
me changed around long term compliance or PPLP is easier to LT comply
with. I suspect the former.

AS Atkins evolved and more things were learned, it has changed for each
person. So did his '02 book, he differed from his '72 book. All I'm
saying
in his '72 book, that I read in '97, he did not say, go wild with fat,
but
he said you can use it and if you had to make choices between butter and
margarine, go butter. If you wanted milk in your coffee/tea go heavy
cream.
But again, on induction these things were limited until you were in On
Going
Weight Lose Phase.

at no point in any book does Dr. A suggest going wild with fat. That's
out of the ballpark.

What about the fat fast?


--
Bob in CT

Hollywood. No I'm not going to poop on anything. One thing if nothing else
is people come here and else where to learn and find what is best for them.

What I do find amusing is the fact that HCG is a hormone and an overdose
would mean, you are very, very, very, very, pregnant. Insulin is a hormone
and an overdose would put you in a comma. Hummm, HCG is a tad safer in that
regard.

With that, I can only research what is available to me and it does make me
comfortable that doctors do use it for weight lose around the world so it is
not a far fetched idea and it has been proven to work. Albeit, it could
very well be the low calorie diet. That is a sticky point right now.

However, I am committed to giving K/E a try, which I believe is a
Atkins/Stillmin hybrid and I can live with that experiment. As I've done
both before.

What I'm out to prove to myself if nothing else is I AM not BROKEN.
Meaning, I can lose more then 2 lbs a month. In a post up thread, I have
done just that. I have lost 5 lbs from Monday to Present day. Okay. Great
for me. What I have also thought about during this time is maybe my old
ratios of P/F/C is not longer valid for me at this point in my life, yes due
to AGE and the ever present hormone change we women must face.

What lead me to HCG was my own frustrations with my lose, diet and exercise.
My binge eating because of the frustrations then my resolve to stick it out,
then frustration again at the scale and tape measure, binge eating. Very
viscous cycle I was on and very destructive to my own moral and self esteem.
Especially with the exercise routine I had. Max effort for little to no
result.

Maybe all I need was to get back to basics and for the time being
disregarding my created low carb plan that worked well. Maybe I needed to
really clean out my system or at least my liver of glycogen. Maybe at this
point, age and time, basic induction will work best for a better weight lose
that can keep me focused and reaching for my goal.

And to all who may think I'm trying to lose 60 pounds in 10 days, that is
not the case. I'll be happy with 5-10 pounds a month if I'm putting forth
max effort. That to me equals the risk/rewards ratio. IF some say that's
unrealistic then that is there reality not mine.


"Hollywood" wrote in message
ups.com...

2Phat wrote:
Go back to the '72 version induction phase. Which in 1997 is where I
learned about Atkins. 2002 was much later after Atkins 'took off' and
became more main stream. I wish I had my book from 97 which was based on
his 72 initial publication.

Don't have the 72 publication, but this is, well, lightly relevant.
The information from DANDR is pretty easily accessible on the
internet.

Now, over the years, and everyone is different, everyone has their own
ratio
that they will lose weight on. Ratio of Fat/Protein/Carbs. For example,
my
ratio was close to a 75%/20%/5% and I lost weight steady. I can not do
that
10 years later. Some people will not lose weight on dairy, others will.
Some will not lose with soda, others will. The TX Low Carb list has/had
a
special diet to see what foods worked best with your system and everyone
is
different in terms of food tolerances.

As I understand it (and did in the two times I have worked Atkins),
this is the point of the restriction of Induction and the gradual
easement into other foods in OWL. Protein Power doesn't bother with
this. If you can fit potatoes into your carb limit, rock on. No value
judgement, but for me, both approaches work, but either something in
me changed around long term compliance or PPLP is easier to LT comply
with. I suspect the former.

AS Atkins evolved and more things were learned, it has changed for each
person. So did his '02 book, he differed from his '72 book. All I'm
saying
in his '72 book, that I read in '97, he did not say, go wild with fat,
but
he said you can use it and if you had to make choices between butter and
margarine, go butter. If you wanted milk in your coffee/tea go heavy
cream.
But again, on induction these things were limited until you were in On
Going
Weight Lose Phase.

at no point in any book does Dr. A suggest going wild with fat. That's
out of the ballpark.

However that is not why I posted. To dispute how Atkins plan initial
1972
or updated 2002 are different. And if you don't have a post '02 book
then
we are talking green apples and red apples. Still apples but different
varieties.

Again, to me KimKins or the K/E, is an Atkins-Stillman combo diet. With
an
emphasize on lean meats in portion sizes (Stillman), veggies* and fat as
needed (Atkins circa 1972).

I am biting my fingers as I type this, and should bite harder, but I
think your expectations are unrealistic. I know you had great short
term success with some approach towards Atkins in the past, but still,
you are in a very different space now (older for one, on and off the
carousel for two). I know you are going to take this as a poop on
doing K/E or HCG, and maybe it is. Do what you're gonna do, but be
sure to take the time to step back and ask yourself the tough
questions like:
1- What exactly am I doing?
2- Why exactly am I doing these things?
3- Are these things the most responsible solutions to my why answers?
4- If not, what would be the best solutions?

I don't think you've done the homework. You don't need to attempt to
prove me wrong. If you have, that's between you and you. Don't occupy
your mindspace with what Hollywood thinks.

-Hollywood

"Bob in CT" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 08:25:38 -0400, Hollywood
wrote:


2Phat wrote:
Go back to the '72 version induction phase. Which in 1997 is where I
learned about Atkins. 2002 was much later after Atkins 'took off' and
became more main stream. I wish I had my book from 97 which was based
on
his 72 initial publication.

Don't have the 72 publication, but this is, well, lightly relevant.
The information from DANDR is pretty easily accessible on the
internet.

Now, over the years, and everyone is different, everyone has their own
ratio
that they will lose weight on. Ratio of Fat/Protein/Carbs. For
example, my
ratio was close to a 75%/20%/5% and I lost weight steady. I can not do
that
10 years later. Some people will not lose weight on dairy, others will.
Some will not lose with soda, others will. The TX Low Carb list
has/had a
special diet to see what foods worked best with your system and
everyone is
different in terms of food tolerances.

As I understand it (and did in the two times I have worked Atkins),
this is the point of the restriction of Induction and the gradual
easement into other foods in OWL. Protein Power doesn't bother with
this. If you can fit potatoes into your carb limit, rock on. No value
judgement, but for me, both approaches work, but either something in
me changed around long term compliance or PPLP is easier to LT comply
with. I suspect the former.

AS Atkins evolved and more things were learned, it has changed for each
person. So did his '02 book, he differed from his '72 book. All I'm
saying
in his '72 book, that I read in '97, he did not say, go wild with fat,
but
he said you can use it and if you had to make choices between butter and
margarine, go butter. If you wanted milk in your coffee/tea go heavy
cream.
But again, on induction these things were limited until you were in On
Going
Weight Lose Phase.

at no point in any book does Dr. A suggest going wild with fat. That's
out of the ballpark.

What about the fat fast?


--
Bob in CT

Bob:

The fat fast was not meant to be an ongoing weight lose method, 3 days I
think was suggested, but to 1 break stalls or 2 to determine if you had
other issues (I think thyroid, insulin resistance FWICR). A lot of people
here and on lists turned the fat fast into a meat fast or used the fat fast
to get into ketosis quickly as well.

I forgot what he suggested if you could not lose or break your stall on the
fat fast.

Bob in CT wrote:

::: at no point in any book does Dr. A suggest going wild with fat.
::: That's out of the ballpark.
::
:: What about the fat fast?

IIRC, the fat fast is calorie limited, so you're definitely not going wild
with fat, you're just restricting protein and calories, as well as carbs.

O I forgot to add, Hollywood, Kimmer's plan includes a water fast on the
weekends. Now this is not for me! I have done an orange/orange juice fast
if I have an extreme amount of gas in the past, for 3 days. Gas was gone
and skin was much clearer (got this from my grannies old herbal book and it
worked). I know people have done water fasts for days on end, but If I'm
eating very little calories on this as is and I personally think it would
make me tired and I'd start cravings. I don't know.

The exercise portion of her plan I have not done yet due to logistic reasons
right now, but I do plan to add back my cardio to see how that will go. Not
as strenuous as I was doing before since the calories count is low right
now, but we shall see what next week brings and how I feel.


"2Phat" wrote in message
...
Hollywood. No I'm not going to poop on anything. One thing if nothing
else is people come here and else where to learn and find what is best for
them.

What I do find amusing is the fact that HCG is a hormone and an overdose
would mean, you are very, very, very, very, pregnant. Insulin is a
hormone and an overdose would put you in a comma. Hummm, HCG is a tad
safer in that regard.

With that, I can only research what is available to me and it does make me
comfortable that doctors do use it for weight lose around the world so it
is not a far fetched idea and it has been proven to work. Albeit, it
could very well be the low calorie diet. That is a sticky point right
now.

However, I am committed to giving K/E a try, which I believe is a
Atkins/Stillmin hybrid and I can live with that experiment. As I've done
both before.

What I'm out to prove to myself if nothing else is I AM not BROKEN.
Meaning, I can lose more then 2 lbs a month. In a post up thread, I have
done just that. I have lost 5 lbs from Monday to Present day. Okay.
Great for me. What I have also thought about during this time is maybe my
old ratios of P/F/C is not longer valid for me at this point in my life,
yes due to AGE and the ever present hormone change we women must face.

What lead me to HCG was my own frustrations with my lose, diet and
exercise. My binge eating because of the frustrations then my resolve to
stick it out, then frustration again at the scale and tape measure, binge
eating. Very viscous cycle I was on and very destructive to my own moral
and self esteem. Especially with the exercise routine I had. Max effort
for little to no result.

Maybe all I need was to get back to basics and for the time being
disregarding my created low carb plan that worked well. Maybe I needed to
really clean out my system or at least my liver of glycogen. Maybe at
this point, age and time, basic induction will work best for a better
weight lose that can keep me focused and reaching for my goal.

And to all who may think I'm trying to lose 60 pounds in 10 days, that is
not the case. I'll be happy with 5-10 pounds a month if I'm putting forth
max effort. That to me equals the risk/rewards ratio. IF some say that's
unrealistic then that is there reality not mine.


"Hollywood" wrote in message
ups.com...

2Phat wrote:
Go back to the '72 version induction phase. Which in 1997 is where I
learned about Atkins. 2002 was much later after Atkins 'took off' and
became more main stream. I wish I had my book from 97 which was based
on
his 72 initial publication.

Don't have the 72 publication, but this is, well, lightly relevant.
The information from DANDR is pretty easily accessible on the
internet.

Now, over the years, and everyone is different, everyone has their own
ratio
that they will lose weight on. Ratio of Fat/Protein/Carbs. For
example, my
ratio was close to a 75%/20%/5% and I lost weight steady. I can not do
that
10 years later. Some people will not lose weight on dairy, others will.
Some will not lose with soda, others will. The TX Low Carb list has/had
a
special diet to see what foods worked best with your system and everyone
is
different in terms of food tolerances.

As I understand it (and did in the two times I have worked Atkins),
this is the point of the restriction of Induction and the gradual
easement into other foods in OWL. Protein Power doesn't bother with
this. If you can fit potatoes into your carb limit, rock on. No value
judgement, but for me, both approaches work, but either something in
me changed around long term compliance or PPLP is easier to LT comply
with. I suspect the former.

AS Atkins evolved and more things were learned, it has changed for each
person. So did his '02 book, he differed from his '72 book. All I'm
saying
in his '72 book, that I read in '97, he did not say, go wild with fat,
but
he said you can use it and if you had to make choices between butter and
margarine, go butter. If you wanted milk in your coffee/tea go heavy
cream.
But again, on induction these things were limited until you were in On
Going
Weight Lose Phase.

at no point in any book does Dr. A suggest going wild with fat. That's
out of the ballpark.

However that is not why I posted. To dispute how Atkins plan initial
1972
or updated 2002 are different. And if you don't have a post '02 book
then
we are talking green apples and red apples. Still apples but different
varieties.

Again, to me KimKins or the K/E, is an Atkins-Stillman combo diet.
With an
emphasize on lean meats in portion sizes (Stillman), veggies* and fat as
needed (Atkins circa 1972).

I am biting my fingers as I type this, and should bite harder, but I
think your expectations are unrealistic. I know you had great short
term success with some approach towards Atkins in the past, but still,
you are in a very different space now (older for one, on and off the
carousel for two). I know you are going to take this as a poop on
doing K/E or HCG, and maybe it is. Do what you're gonna do, but be
sure to take the time to step back and ask yourself the tough
questions like:
1- What exactly am I doing?
2- Why exactly am I doing these things?
3- Are these things the most responsible solutions to my why answers?
4- If not, what would be the best solutions?

I don't think you've done the homework. You don't need to attempt to
prove me wrong. If you have, that's between you and you. Don't occupy
your mindspace with what Hollywood thinks.

-Hollywood