OT - Opinions about bleach as a cleanser

"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: The paragraph below is where I got that notion:
:::::: How It Causes Harm:
:::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe. They
:::::: say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water. This is
:::::: very true, but only in a laboratory test tube under very
:::::: controlled conditions.
:::::
::::: Chlorine is an element. It doesn't break down into anything else.
:::
::: Right....which means that the chlorine itself remains to interact
::: with other things. Of course, small amounts may not do
::: much....but it all ends up who knows where, with everything else we
::: all pour down the drain. I think this is the issue, not that there
::: are dioxins in the bleach itself.
::
:: Chlorine is a gas at room temperature or anywhere near it. You don't
:: need to worry about chlorine except in high enough concentrations to
:: gag you.

So there is no need to worry about it getting into the environment? I know
some disgree with the "green" concepts.

No, not chlorine. It's already in the environment. It has always been
there.

Bleach, on the other hand, is man-made and can be a problem.

"Roger Zoul" wrote:

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: The paragraph below is where I got that notion:
:::::: How It Causes Harm:
:::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe. They
:::::: say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water. This is
:::::: very true, but only in a laboratory test tube under very
:::::: controlled conditions.
:::::
::::: Chlorine is an element. It doesn't break down into anything else.
:::
::: Right....which means that the chlorine itself remains to interact
::: with other things. Of course, small amounts may not do
::: much....but it all ends up who knows where, with everything else we
::: all pour down the drain. I think this is the issue, not that there
::: are dioxins in the bleach itself.
::
:: Chlorine is a gas at room temperature or anywhere near it. You don't
:: need to worry about chlorine except in high enough concentrations to
:: gag you.

So there is no need to worry about it getting into the environment? I know
some disgree with the "green" concepts.

No, not chlorine. It's already in the environment. It has always been
there.

Bleach, on the other hand, is man-made and can be a problem.

Martin W. Smith mentioned in passing :

I have never
heard anyone refer to bleach as chlorine.

Besides being called "Chlorine" when used as bleach, Sodium Hypochlorite
(NaClO) is also advertised in my area for pools as "Chlorine" with big blue
and white signs. Perhaps you've heard of that?

The point being that you will almost never find jugs of Chlorine the
element unless you set out to make it. You -will- find Sodium Hypochlorite.
Sodium Hypochlorite is a salt, and disassociates very quickly into it's
constituent parts.

I appreciate technical precision as much as the next guy, but that does
not mean I have to pretend ignorance of the colloquialisms of my culture. I
would never go so far as to require others to adhere to my literalist
restrictions.

--
Sam-I-Am
If we are all one, does not that mean that everything outside of you is
also you? - Alana


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Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: Carmen wrote:
:::::::: Hi,
:::::::: On 7-Sep-2004, "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::::::::
::::::::: How It Causes Harm:
::::::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe.
::::::::: They say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water.
::::::::: This is very true, but
::::::::: only in a laboratory test tube under very controlled
::::::::: conditions. Chlorine
::::::::: itself is not the real issue at hand, but how the byproducts
::::::::: of chlorine such
::::::::: as organochlrines and dioxins remain in the environment.
::::::::
:::::::: You're smart and well-educated, but not in chemistry. :-) A
:::::::: "byproduct" is a breakdown product of some mixture. Chlorine
:::::::: is an element. It is already in its simplest naturally
:::::::: occuring form. Chlorine cannot break down into hydrogen and
:::::::: oxygen or salt elements like sodium.
::::::
:::::: I think what they mean is that if chlorine gets into the
:::::: environment it can act on other materials and the resulting
:::::: chemical reaction may lead to things like organochlorines and
:::::: dioxins.
::::::
:::::::: These people probably meant that chlorine can be made *part of*
:::::::: substances such as the ones they list, but that's not going to
:::::::: occur just because of the presence of chlorine atoms.
::::::
:::::: Well, the issue is that the bleach has to go somewhere in the
:::::: environment, which may result in these byproducts. I never said
:::::: dioxin are in bleach, someone else simply made the comment they
:::::: aren't, which I don't dispute.
:::::
::::: You know they use chlorine in swimming pools quite a lot. It does
::::: cause asthma in children, but I've not heard of any other medical
::::: problems.
:::::
::::: It dries out your hair (well, the whole mix of pool chemicals
::::: does) and your skin, and it makes you smell like chlorine. It
::::: turns your hair green. When the weather is very hot, chloramine
::::: gas can form over the surface of the pool, which will make you
::::: gag.
:::::
::::: If you are worried about bleach, why not use something else?
:::
::: Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to use the
::: suggestions given in the post by Bob.
:::
::: BTW, I'm not hyper-worried about bleach per se, but I have a house
::: full of cleaners that sit there for years. Simple & cheap
::: solutions that work, are less toxic, and environmentally safe seem
::: like a good options to me. Plus, I don't like the smell and the
::: thought of a lot of chemicals.
::
:: Just a suggestion... you can ignore it, of course... but you are
:: beginning to sound like you are developing an anxiety problem.

Yeah, I'll ignore it because it's not true. Remember, this is usenet. You
have no idea of what I really feel or how much concern I have about this
issue. I simply posted for opinions - you're misinterpreting what you see.

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: Carmen wrote:
:::::::: Hi,
:::::::: On 7-Sep-2004, "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::::::::
::::::::: How It Causes Harm:
::::::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe.
::::::::: They say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water.
::::::::: This is very true, but
::::::::: only in a laboratory test tube under very controlled
::::::::: conditions. Chlorine
::::::::: itself is not the real issue at hand, but how the byproducts
::::::::: of chlorine such
::::::::: as organochlrines and dioxins remain in the environment.
::::::::
:::::::: You're smart and well-educated, but not in chemistry. :-) A
:::::::: "byproduct" is a breakdown product of some mixture. Chlorine
:::::::: is an element. It is already in its simplest naturally
:::::::: occuring form. Chlorine cannot break down into hydrogen and
:::::::: oxygen or salt elements like sodium.
::::::
:::::: I think what they mean is that if chlorine gets into the
:::::: environment it can act on other materials and the resulting
:::::: chemical reaction may lead to things like organochlorines and
:::::: dioxins.
::::::
:::::::: These people probably meant that chlorine can be made *part of*
:::::::: substances such as the ones they list, but that's not going to
:::::::: occur just because of the presence of chlorine atoms.
::::::
:::::: Well, the issue is that the bleach has to go somewhere in the
:::::: environment, which may result in these byproducts. I never said
:::::: dioxin are in bleach, someone else simply made the comment they
:::::: aren't, which I don't dispute.
:::::
::::: You know they use chlorine in swimming pools quite a lot. It does
::::: cause asthma in children, but I've not heard of any other medical
::::: problems.
:::::
::::: It dries out your hair (well, the whole mix of pool chemicals
::::: does) and your skin, and it makes you smell like chlorine. It
::::: turns your hair green. When the weather is very hot, chloramine
::::: gas can form over the surface of the pool, which will make you
::::: gag.
:::::
::::: If you are worried about bleach, why not use something else?
:::
::: Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to use the
::: suggestions given in the post by Bob.
:::
::: BTW, I'm not hyper-worried about bleach per se, but I have a house
::: full of cleaners that sit there for years. Simple & cheap
::: solutions that work, are less toxic, and environmentally safe seem
::: like a good options to me. Plus, I don't like the smell and the
::: thought of a lot of chemicals.
::
:: Just a suggestion... you can ignore it, of course... but you are
:: beginning to sound like you are developing an anxiety problem.

Yeah, I'll ignore it because it's not true. Remember, this is usenet. You
have no idea of what I really feel or how much concern I have about this
issue. I simply posted for opinions - you're misinterpreting what you see.

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
:::::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::::::::
::::::::: The paragraph below is where I got that notion:
::::::::: How It Causes Harm:
::::::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe.
::::::::: They say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water.
::::::::: This is very true, but only in a laboratory test tube under
::::::::: very controlled conditions.
::::::::
:::::::: Chlorine is an element. It doesn't break down into anything
:::::::: else.
::::::
:::::: Right....which means that the chlorine itself remains to interact
:::::: with other things. Of course, small amounts may not do
:::::: much....but it all ends up who knows where, with everything else
:::::: we all pour down the drain. I think this is the issue, not that
:::::: there are dioxins in the bleach itself.
:::::
::::: Chlorine is a gas at room temperature or anywhere near it. You
::::: don't need to worry about chlorine except in high enough
::::: concentrations to gag you.
:::
::: So there is no need to worry about it getting into the environment?
::: I know some disgree with the "green" concepts.
::
:: No, not chlorine. It's already in the environment. It has always been
:: there.
::
:: Bleach, on the other hand, is man-made and can be a problem.

Martin - the discussion is about bleach - don't be such a pedant.

Martin W. Smith wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::
::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
:::::
:::::: Martin W. Smith wrote:
:::::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote:
::::::::
::::::::: The paragraph below is where I got that notion:
::::::::: How It Causes Harm:
::::::::: "The Clorox company states that chlorine is basically safe.
::::::::: They say that it breaks down into harmless salt and water.
::::::::: This is very true, but only in a laboratory test tube under
::::::::: very controlled conditions.
::::::::
:::::::: Chlorine is an element. It doesn't break down into anything
:::::::: else.
::::::
:::::: Right....which means that the chlorine itself remains to interact
:::::: with other things. Of course, small amounts may not do
:::::: much....but it all ends up who knows where, with everything else
:::::: we all pour down the drain. I think this is the issue, not that
:::::: there are dioxins in the bleach itself.
:::::
::::: Chlorine is a gas at room temperature or anywhere near it. You
::::: don't need to worry about chlorine except in high enough
::::: concentrations to gag you.
:::
::: So there is no need to worry about it getting into the environment?
::: I know some disgree with the "green" concepts.
::
:: No, not chlorine. It's already in the environment. It has always been
:: there.
::
:: Bleach, on the other hand, is man-made and can be a problem.

Martin - the discussion is about bleach - don't be such a pedant.

Bob (this one) wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::: FOB wrote:
::::: Yes, it is safe. It is added to drinking water and swimming pools
::::: routinely. You don't want to breath the vapors too much, good
::::: thing to do is spray some around and leave the room while it does
::::: its stuff, come back and rinse when the fumes have died down.
::::: What do dioxins have to do with bleach, it's just chlorine in
::::: water?
:::
::: Byproducts.
:::
:::
http://carbon.cfr.washington.edu/esc.../cleaning.html
::
:: Looks like bad info. Here's some stuff from the NIH:
:: "How are dioxins formed?
:: Dioxins are chemical contaminants that have no commercial usefulness
:: by themselves. They are formed during combustion processes, such as
:: waste incineration, forest fires and backyard trash burning, and
:: during manufacturing processes such as herbicide manufacture and
:: paper manufacture. e.g. dioxin was a contaminant of the herbicide
:: Agent Orange used as a defoliant by U.S. forces in Vietnam."
::
:: Says nothing about bleach in the home. It looks like the process of
:: creating dioxins is rather more complex than just using bleach in any
:: of the myriad uses generally considered.

Okay....so when compared against industrial processes that contribute to the
creation of dioxins, the use of bleach in the home, in the amounts that ends
up in the environment, is likely of no significance.

::
:: "Formed during combustion processes" - that leaves bleach out.
:: "During manufacturing processes" - leaves bleach out.
:: http://www.niehs.nih.gov/oc/factsheets/dioxin.htm

I think they do use bleaches in making paper, but I don't know too many
folks who make paper at home.

Bob (this one) wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::
::: FOB wrote:
::::: Yes, it is safe. It is added to drinking water and swimming pools
::::: routinely. You don't want to breath the vapors too much, good
::::: thing to do is spray some around and leave the room while it does
::::: its stuff, come back and rinse when the fumes have died down.
::::: What do dioxins have to do with bleach, it's just chlorine in
::::: water?
:::
::: Byproducts.
:::
:::
http://carbon.cfr.washington.edu/esc.../cleaning.html
::
:: Looks like bad info. Here's some stuff from the NIH:
:: "How are dioxins formed?
:: Dioxins are chemical contaminants that have no commercial usefulness
:: by themselves. They are formed during combustion processes, such as
:: waste incineration, forest fires and backyard trash burning, and
:: during manufacturing processes such as herbicide manufacture and
:: paper manufacture. e.g. dioxin was a contaminant of the herbicide
:: Agent Orange used as a defoliant by U.S. forces in Vietnam."
::
:: Says nothing about bleach in the home. It looks like the process of
:: creating dioxins is rather more complex than just using bleach in any
:: of the myriad uses generally considered.

Okay....so when compared against industrial processes that contribute to the
creation of dioxins, the use of bleach in the home, in the amounts that ends
up in the environment, is likely of no significance.

::
:: "Formed during combustion processes" - that leaves bleach out.
:: "During manufacturing processes" - leaves bleach out.
:: http://www.niehs.nih.gov/oc/factsheets/dioxin.htm

I think they do use bleaches in making paper, but I don't know too many
folks who make paper at home.

Which I got from he
http://carbon.cfr.washington.edu/esc.../cleaning.html


The misleading "edu" address would seem to be a student page of some
sort. Most of the articles on the "Sources" page of the website come
from dubious alternative-product selling sites.

Alternative cleaner merchants won't bother to tell you that children
can be just as easily poisoned by "safe and natural" orange cleaners
as most other cleaning products if they get into the cabinet, nor
will they tell you that the terpinols in Melaleuca (tea tree oil)
are just as toxic as the phenol in Lysol and other cleaners, with
residues particularly poisonous to cats.

--
jamie )

"There's a seeker born every minute."