Good bye and good riddance to diets

Doug Freyburger wrote:
Written that way it shows you've never had a craving. It also
suggests why your comments about low carbing are so
insanely alternating between clueless and matter-of-fact
book-citing.

It's hard to discuss this stuff with you when you take such a superior, self
righteous tone. I may not be a medical doctor, but Penn's PhD ethnomusicology
program thinks I have a working brain. I've also low-carbed for months and even
years at a time. I know what I'm talking about.

There is no relationship between craving a food
and wanting a food.

Of course there is. Both manifest themselves as desires; one is physical, while
the other is psychological. But, they feel equally real.

One is a physical urge that can only be
resolved by physical means that does not go away with
distractions and that is not specific until a food that
addresses it is tasted.

That is patently false. Almost all low-carb plans are built on the premise that
enough protein consumption, coupled with reduced or eliminated carb intake,
will eliminate physical cravings. Put more simply, the more protein and fat you
eat, the less you'll crave carbs.

The other is a mental desire that can be distracted and that can be anywhere
from broad to specific.

Whether cravings are physical or psychological, the decision to satisfy or
substitute them is a tangible choice.

Folks who've never tried to resolve a craving to make it go
away might never learn the difference and they tend to
conclude they are overeaters for some other reason.

I entirely agree. I don't get anymore cravings for carbs; my desires to partake
of them are purely psychological and cultural.

Folks who've never had a craving are unlikely to learn the difference.

Part of the problem, as I've been saying all along, relates to how people
conceive of normal eating. In American culture, it's normal to eat carbs at
every meal and to snack on them throughout the day. It's considered normal to
try and satiate persistent hunger with carbs. Our entire public culinary
culture is based on that principle. Consider what caterers typically provide
for business meetings and functions, what most restaurants provide before meals
and what most vending machines stock. Of course, the hyperinsulin person
eventually figures out or is hopefully informed that eating carbs to quell
persistent hunger is like chasing a shadowy dragon; the carbs never actually do
the trick, perpetuating a vicious cycle in which the body only feels satisfied
for a short period and wants more carbs. Most people don't realize this. Most
people's friends and families don't realize this. When people overeat, it's
primarily because they're looking to food to satisfy a deep-seeded hunger. That
hunger may have nothing to do with food, as when it's truly a hunger for
emotional security or validation through food. However, as you say, that hunger
is often entirely physiological. Most people simply don't comprehend the
principle that most persistent physical hunger can only be satisfied with
protein and fat because it takes the body a longer time to metabolize them.

I'm wheat intolerant in a way that triggers cravings. If I have
no wheat (exact threshold determined by level of avoidance
in recent years but always a lot smaller than one bite of
bread) for more than a week then the cravings are a
temptation that is always lurking in the background to
ambush me but never active. If I take the first bite then I
crave it like the addict that I am and it takes much effort to
turn the craving back off again.

I honestly cannot think of any similar relationship I have to an entire food
group. Hispanic that I am, I've gone weeks and months without white rice, most
times either not eating it at all or substituting brown rice. I don't crave
wheat in any form. If I don't eat bread or pasta for months, I don't feel
deprived as long as no one around me is eating these foods.

If I'd never gone on Atkins I would never have learned how to turn it off.

If I'd never gone on South Beach or Atkins before it, I too would have never
learned that I could live without feeling hungry all the time and eating too
much in order to satisfy that hunger.

But none of that is the same as wanting wheat. I don't want
to eat poison. And none of it is the same as missing wheat.
When I finally learned what wheat was doing to me my attitude
towards it changed completely and forever. But my body is
always ready to reactivate those cravings so the temptation
is always there. And the social pressure to eat poison is
endless.


See, here's where we disagree. I don't look upon home made, relatively
unrefined carbs as poison. Poison is something that harms anyone who goes near
it. If millions or even billions of people can maintain normal weight eating
carbs, they must not be poison to those people and probably not even poisonous
to me. You're right that there's always social pressure to eat carbs, but it's
not a sinister plot to poison the carb-intolerant; it's simply how our culture
is set up. People consider it entirely normal to eat carbs in a way that they
would not consider alcohol or tobacco. Just think about how people continue
eating carbs long after they've given up drinking and smoking. Think about how
nearly every food plan except LC, from veganism to macrobiotics, is based
around carbs. The tendency to eat carbs, as I've said before, arises in
agrarian societies that use grains, legumes, fruits and vegetables as staples.
Surely, people couldn't have been poisoning themselves for millennia eating
that way. That brings us to the question: How has normal carbohydrate
consumption become toxic, poisonous and addictive for so many people? Part of
the answer is of course that different people have different genetic and
metabolic predispositions. But, part of the problem is indeed cultural.

The mainstream American diet is full of meat and carbohydrates; just ask an LC
vegetarian what they endure every day. Until our culture shifts away from the
model of hunger satiety with carbs, we will always feel incredible pressure to
eat carbs, especially in social settings. Writing off all those settings as
poisonous may help you stay on plan, but that model doesn't work for me. I want
to eat carbs with every meal, but my body can't handle it. I'd rather eat real
desserts than sugar free ones. I often would rather eat rice than salad. I'd
often rather drink fruit juice than plain water, diet soda or Crystal Light.
But, I choose LC alternatives because my metabolism and hyperinsulinism have
left me no choice.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" wrote in message
. ..
Cheri wrote:
OK, I do eat normally everyday. YMMV

Please don't get me wrong; I know that my body needs me to eat LC in order
to
lose weight and stay healthy. I'm just saying that in order to accomplish
these
things, I have to ignore many of my cultural associations with food and
eat
somewhat abnormally. Sometimes, that feeling of eating too differently
from how
I wish I could is overwhelming. At those times, I sometimes choose to eat
whatever I want at the expense of my weight loss. We should try and feel
compassion for people who have trouble simply changing their diet because
it
makes sense for their bodies. People eat different foods for a host of
reasons.
While there are some food addicts out here who should never be let loose
with
any carbs, some of us wish we could at least sometimes eat normally.

Orlando

I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but
being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that
I missed (Long John Silver for one) no longer sound appetizing to me, but I
do know the cravings and for me eating stuff like that leads to more
cravings, high numbers, and feeling bad, so it's kind of a vicious circle.
Easier for me to just not eat that stuff now, and I don't feel deprived
these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what
you're saying.

Cheri

Cheri wrote:
I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but
being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that
I missed (Long John Silver for one) no longer sound appetizing to me, but I
do know the cravings and for me eating stuff like that leads to more
cravings, high numbers, and feeling bad, so it's kind of a vicious circle.
Easier for me to just not eat that stuff now, and I don't feel deprived
these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what
you're saying.

Thanks for understanding. Most times, I don't eat that stuff either and don't
feel deprived if I'm alone. But, get me around people who are eating what I
wish I could and I start feeling miserable.

Orlando

In article ,
Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

Cheri wrote:
I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but
being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that
I missed (Long John Silver for one) no longer sound appetizing to me, but I
do know the cravings and for me eating stuff like that leads to more
cravings, high numbers, and feeling bad, so it's kind of a vicious circle.
Easier for me to just not eat that stuff now, and I don't feel deprived
these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what
you're saying.

Thanks for understanding. Most times, I don't eat that stuff either and don't
feel deprived if I'm alone. But, get me around people who are eating what I
wish I could and I start feeling miserable.

Orlando

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"Cheri" wrote:

I had quite a bit of trouble with it for at least a couple of years, but
being diabetic gives me extra incentive and after awhile, those things that
I missed (Long John Silver for one) no longer sound appetizing to me, but I
do know the cravings and for me eating stuff like that leads to more
cravings, high numbers, and feeling bad, so it's kind of a vicious circle.

One of the reasons I am a fan of Atkins more than other
popular low carb plans is it is fully cutomized. Early on it
starts out very cautious and stresses that one bite does
hurt because early on folks still getting over their early
cravings do get set back by a single bite. Then as you
move through the 4 phases it gets more generous and
what you eat is based on how your own body reacts to
each food added back. If you add back some very carby
food and your body reacts poorly to that level of carbs you
pull back a bit and settle in using that level. If you add
back some very carby food and your body reacts well to
that level of carbs you keep adding until you find your
own personal limit.

Easier for me to just not eat that stuff now, and I don't feel deprived
these days at all, but it was awhile getting there, and I do understand what
you're saying.

It's very easy to refuse to try carby foods because you're
too cautious. It's very easy to keep adding carby foods
because you've put yourself back into the vicious cycle and
end up off the plan. The fact that there's a process to learn
how to tune your own food doesn't mean it's easy to actually
figure it out.

If anyone ever finds a system that's hard to fall off of they will
be a billionaire. Right now the best we have is types of plan
that specific people find easy to stay on. The best of the
best are the ones that customize to each individual.

Susan wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:

One of the reasons I am a fan of Atkins more than other
popular low carb plans is it is fully cutomized.

As are the other plans, except for the Zone, which isn't actually low
carb.

Your anti-Atkins bias is coming out again.

So on Protein Power you can end up eating several times
as many carb grams as someone else because of how
your body reacts? Nope. PP has carb levels determined
by what works for most not based on what works for each
individual.

So on Carbohydrate Addicts Diet you can end up eating
several times as many carb grams as someone else because
of how your body reacts? Nope. CAD has menu classes
that are used based on individual results but the classes
aren't that different.

So on Weight Watchers you can end up eating twice as
many exchanges as someone else because of your results
compared to theirs? Nice to have such a fully customized
place available!

I need to read South Beach far more carefully to find out
how it's fully customized as in two different people can follow
the same directions and end up eating dramatically different
foods based on their own body's reactions.

Following the Atkins directions to find CCLL and CCLM
definitely has people eating dramatically different carb levels.
CCLLs may cluster near the 50 grams net used for everyone
by PP but I've encountered folks who have to stay under 15
and folks who can eat over 100 grams while in phase 2. It's
part of why the question "What is low carb" keeps coming up -
It means different gram counts for different people.

Doug Freyburger wrote:
I need to read South Beach far more carefully to find out
how it's fully customized as in two different people can follow
the same directions and end up eating dramatically different
foods based on their own body's reactions.

It's very possible; Agatston's recipes bear this out.

Following the Atkins directions to find CCLL and CCLM
definitely has people eating dramatically different carb levels.
CCLLs may cluster near the 50 grams net used for everyone
by PP but I've encountered folks who have to stay under 15
and folks who can eat over 100 grams while in phase 2. It's
part of why the question "What is low carb" keeps coming up -
It means different gram counts for different people.

During the first month on South Beach, I attended a few school-related
functions where I experimented with various kinds of carbs and found that none
of them stalled my weight loss. For me, it's more a question of frequency than
carb type. I can eat about anything infrequently.

Orlando

Susan wrote:

So on Weight Watchers you can end up eating twice as
many exchanges as someone else because of your results
compared to theirs? Nice to have such a fully customized
place available!

No exchanges on WW these days. In fact, not in all the years I've
followed it. You must be remembering a very old program.

WW is low carb?

It can be if you want it to be. I work best on a low wheat but
otherwise well ballanced mix of carbs and fresh veg with small portions
of meat and cheese and medium portions of fish.

Low carb isn't really a sensible option for us with a growing lad and a
type 1 diabetic, and an inability on my part to wish to cook 3 different
meals each evening.


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