Very discouraged; please help

"The Historian" wrote in message
ups.com...

teachrmama wrote:
"Willow Herself" wrote in
message et...
Either way I think the expression is being widely overused in here, a
lot
of people are assuming a lot about others.... generally without having
a
clue what the h... they are talking about.

I had never heard the saying until I came here. But I agree with
you--you
can't assume that someone is in denial unless you live in their skin.

I have to disagree. I lived most of my adult life as a FFID. I think I
can determine if a person is a FFID based on what they say or write.
Besides, a person who is a FFID, or, perhaps more kindly, suffering
from a FFID disorder, doesn't know they have a problem. Living in their
skin doesn't tell you anything other than the facts the FFID is unhappy
and there's always a reason they can't lose weight.

I have 2 sisters that are extremely heavy. One is morbidly obese, and
suffers from all kinds of problems. She claims that she barely eats
anything, but doesn't ever lose weight. Perhaps she is right--her
metabolism could be extremely slow. But I don't think she is in denial as
much as in a very hopeless psychological state of being. Because she can
tell you that she needs to lose weight--she just doesn't seem able to take
the steps to get there for long enough to make any difference. I know that
before I heard the doctor tell me that if I wanted to see my children grow
up I'd better lose some weight and reduce the stress in my life, I knew I
should lose weight--even knew how--but just hadn't quite gotten around to
making that commitment. I guess I see FFID as insulting and negative,
rather than caring and concerned. Which is why I don't use it. But others
may not perceive it the same as I do.

"The Historian" wrote in message
ups.com...

teachrmama wrote:
"Willow Herself" wrote in
message et...
Either way I think the expression is being widely overused in here, a
lot
of people are assuming a lot about others.... generally without having
a
clue what the h... they are talking about.

I had never heard the saying until I came here. But I agree with
you--you
can't assume that someone is in denial unless you live in their skin.

I have to disagree. I lived most of my adult life as a FFID. I think I
can determine if a person is a FFID based on what they say or write.
Besides, a person who is a FFID, or, perhaps more kindly, suffering
from a FFID disorder, doesn't know they have a problem. Living in their
skin doesn't tell you anything other than the facts the FFID is unhappy
and there's always a reason they can't lose weight.

Neil,
recovering FFID


No you can't. For many reasons.

Posts are steriles, you don't have the context in which it's written, the
ability of the person to actually express themselves right (I should know
about that, english is my 3rd language), you don't have body language, you
don't have the history behind the post.

You're putting a cold judgement with very little information, no background,
no context. There is much more to weight loss than food and exercise.

The fact that you've been there doesn't give you the ability, or the right,
to judge people. As I said previously, the only person you have the right
and the capacity to judge, you see in the mirror every morning. You have
done an awesome progress, kudo for that, but it doesn't give you any
qualification to "fix" others.

Keep in mind that everybody in here "have been there", a lot of us "made it
to goal" and have maintained the loss, and yet that doesn't give us any
"special abilities" over others.

We can share experiences, support each others, but to each his/her path. I
wasn't pointing at you with my post, I've done that in the past also and I
regret it. Who are we to "know better"? Bull...

Will~

Willow Herself wrote:
"The Historian" wrote in message
ups.com...

teachrmama wrote:
"Willow Herself" wrote in
message et...
Either way I think the expression is being widely overused in here, a
lot
of people are assuming a lot about others.... generally without having
a
clue what the h... they are talking about.

I had never heard the saying until I came here. But I agree with
you--you
can't assume that someone is in denial unless you live in their skin.

I have to disagree. I lived most of my adult life as a FFID. I think I
can determine if a person is a FFID based on what they say or write.
Besides, a person who is a FFID, or, perhaps more kindly, suffering
from a FFID disorder, doesn't know they have a problem. Living in their
skin doesn't tell you anything other than the facts the FFID is unhappy
and there's always a reason they can't lose weight.

Neil,
recovering FFID


No you can't. For many reasons.

Posts are steriles, you don't have the context in which it's written, the
ability of the person to actually express themselves right (I should know
about that, english is my 3rd language), you don't have body language, you
don't have the history behind the post.

With all due respect, Willow, and much respect is due, that's nonsense.
"Body language?" Are you going to toss out ALL written communication?

You're putting a cold judgement with very little information, no background,
no context. There is much more to weight loss than food and exercise.

Mechanically, I doubt it. Calories in, calories out, seems to be the
way the weight loss world works. If you are including such matter as
emotional states, etc, then I humbly suggest you not muddy the water by
including them.

The fact that you've been there doesn't give you the ability, or the right,
to judge people.

To judge them is to condemn them to hell. I don't recall I've done that
here. I haven't even done so on the chess newsgroups.

As I said previously, the only person you have the right
and the capacity to judge, you see in the mirror every morning.

See my previous note.

You have
done an awesome progress, kudo for that, but it doesn't give you any
qualification to "fix" others.

I'm not aware I've tried to "fix" anyone. However, I do recall posting
an opinion to a newsgroup called alt.support.diet. People post and
discuss topics all the time on that group. Do you think, Willow, that
people should be allowed to do this?

Keep in mind that everybody in here "have been there", a lot of us "made it
to goal" and have maintained the loss, and yet that doesn't give us any
"special abilities" over others.

I think it shows you have worked very hard to lose your excess weight
and regain your good health. Hard work is indeed a special ability.

We can share experiences, support each others, but to each his/her path.

I agree. And when someone comes on ASD telling us that she can't lose
weight and just what she WON'T do to lose weight, I reserve the right
to discuss her post.

I
wasn't pointing at you with my post.

You've pasted a bulls-eye on me for this post. Or at least tried to; I
think you stuck it on yourself by mistake.

I've done that in the past also and I
regret it. Who are we to "know better"? Bull...

This entire thread has been bull. I'm outta here!

Neil,
who has better things to do with his time.

Edna Pearl wrote:
"The Historian" wrote in message
ups.com...
From the website www.fathappens.com:
"Gosh Fran, you have bought into the idea that being fat is your
fault...It's not your fault - but it is your burden."
Edna sounds like a convert.

Actually, I've never heard of this website or this person. A quick glance
reveals a lot of pink and a thread on "gastric band bypass" shudder Are
you recommending the website? Do you think it's worth bothering with?

I think it's the worst export from the UK since mad cow.

Or are you just trying to be cute and I'm not getting the joke -- if so
that's fine, I'm just asking whether this website is worth my time.

ep

Edna, it's hard to take seriously someone who complains about not
making progress losing weight and then declares that she won't use the
basic measuring tools of dieters. You do realize calorie counting is a
tool, don't you, and not an end in itself?

Snipping stuff


No you can't. For many reasons.

Posts are steriles, you don't have the context in which it's written, the
ability of the person to actually express themselves right (I should know
about that, english is my 3rd language), you don't have body language,
you
don't have the history behind the post.

With all due respect, Willow, and much respect is due, that's nonsense.
"Body language?" Are you going to toss out ALL written communication?

Where did I ever said anything even remotely ressembling that idea? I'm
saying that you can't judge somebody simply by a post on a newsgroup. You
don't have half the information needed to make the kind of judgement that is
made in here everyday. I face those people in person, everyday, that's my
job, and my first impression is often WAY OFF, they surprise me with their
strength of character, their ability to bouce back and their tenacity.

You're putting a cold judgement with very little information, no
background,
no context. There is much more to weight loss than food and exercise.

Mechanically, I doubt it. Calories in, calories out, seems to be the
way the weight loss world works. If you are including such matter as
emotional states, etc, then I humbly suggest you not muddy the water by
including them.

Muddy the water????? If weight loss was as simple as calorie in calorie out,
it wouldn't be an issue.. and I wouldn't have a job... Weight loss is very
much connected to emotional issues, physical issues even mental issues. Long
lasting weight loss that is...


The fact that you've been there doesn't give you the ability, or the
right,
to judge people.

To judge them is to condemn them to hell. I don't recall I've done that
here. I haven't even done so on the chess newsgroups.

To judge what they are doing and how "honest" they are with themselves...
that's what I meant. I thought it was obvious... sorry..


As I said previously, the only person you have the right
and the capacity to judge, you see in the mirror every morning.

See my previous note.

You have
done an awesome progress, kudo for that, but it doesn't give you any
qualification to "fix" others.

I'm not aware I've tried to "fix" anyone. However, I do recall posting
an opinion to a newsgroup called alt.support.diet. People post and
discuss topics all the time on that group. Do you think, Willow, that
people should be allowed to do this?

Again, I never said anything like that, you post whatever you want and I'll
do the same. Trying to "open someone's eyes" about their "FFID" disorder
goes WAY beyond "posting an opinion about weight loss" or "discussing a
post"

Keep in mind that everybody in here "have been there", a lot of us "made
it
to goal" and have maintained the loss, and yet that doesn't give us any
"special abilities" over others.

I think it shows you have worked very hard to lose your excess weight
and regain your good health. Hard work is indeed a special ability.

Again you miss my point.. hard work and perseverance is a skill, or special
ability, doesn't give one any ability to deal with other people's weight
loss.


We can share experiences, support each others, but to each his/her path.

I agree. And when someone comes on ASD telling us that she can't lose
weight and just what she WON'T do to lose weight, I reserve the right
to discuss her post.

You wouldn't believe how many people, EVERY WEEK, who walk in the door at my
center, telling me how they can't lose weight, telling how they've tried for
years and nothing works... and I just listen, I don't agree with them, but I
don't judge... guess what... 85% at least of them come back the following
week with an entirely different attitude. They don't need me to "open their
eyes" they need someone to just listen and let them find their own
solutions.


I
wasn't pointing at you with my post.

You've pasted a bulls-eye on me for this post. Or at least tried to; I
think you stuck it on yourself by mistake.

I don't even know what "pasting a bulls-eye" means... so... but again, I was
NOT pointing at you. You're one of the people I've noted used that
expression, not the only one... if you feel attacked... well.. as they say,
if the shoe fits..

I've done that in the past also and I
regret it. Who are we to "know better"? Bull...

This entire thread has been bull. I'm outta here!

Oh my... did I dare oppose the great Neil???????

*grin* chill out man.. you take yourself way too seriously...
Will~

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"The Historian" wrote in message
ups.com...

teachrmama wrote:
"Willow Herself" wrote in
message et...
Either way I think the expression is being widely overused in here, a
lot
of people are assuming a lot about others.... generally without having
a
clue what the h... they are talking about.

I had never heard the saying until I came here. But I agree with
you--you
can't assume that someone is in denial unless you live in their skin.

I have to disagree. I lived most of my adult life as a FFID. I think I
can determine if a person is a FFID based on what they say or write.
Besides, a person who is a FFID, or, perhaps more kindly, suffering
from a FFID disorder, doesn't know they have a problem. Living in their
skin doesn't tell you anything other than the facts the FFID is unhappy
and there's always a reason they can't lose weight.

I have 2 sisters that are extremely heavy. One is morbidly obese, and
suffers from all kinds of problems. She claims that she barely eats
anything, but doesn't ever lose weight. Perhaps she is right--her
metabolism could be extremely slow. But I don't think she is in denial as
much as in a very hopeless psychological state of being. Because she can
tell you that she needs to lose weight--she just doesn't seem able to take
the steps to get there for long enough to make any difference. I know
that before I heard the doctor tell me that if I wanted to see my children
grow up I'd better lose some weight and reduce the stress in my life, I
knew I should lose weight--even knew how--but just hadn't quite gotten
around to making that commitment. I guess I see FFID as insulting and
negative, rather than caring and concerned. Which is why I don't use it.
But others may not perceive it the same as I do.


I always thought a person in denial meant that they didn't know they had a
problem. I think being in, or coming to this group, or dieting, or
whatever, pretty much means they know they have a problem. Therefore
they're not in denial.

Jen

Number one, I don't weigh myself, and I'm not going to. I don't count
calories, and I'm not going to.

Good luck to you.

"Jen" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"The Historian" wrote in message
ups.com...

teachrmama wrote:
"Willow Herself" wrote in
message et...
Either way I think the expression is being widely overused in here, a
lot
of people are assuming a lot about others.... generally without
having a
clue what the h... they are talking about.

I had never heard the saying until I came here. But I agree with
you--you
can't assume that someone is in denial unless you live in their skin.

I have to disagree. I lived most of my adult life as a FFID. I think I
can determine if a person is a FFID based on what they say or write.
Besides, a person who is a FFID, or, perhaps more kindly, suffering
from a FFID disorder, doesn't know they have a problem. Living in their
skin doesn't tell you anything other than the facts the FFID is unhappy
and there's always a reason they can't lose weight.

I have 2 sisters that are extremely heavy. One is morbidly obese, and
suffers from all kinds of problems. She claims that she barely eats
anything, but doesn't ever lose weight. Perhaps she is right--her
metabolism could be extremely slow. But I don't think she is in denial
as much as in a very hopeless psychological state of being. Because she
can tell you that she needs to lose weight--she just doesn't seem able to
take the steps to get there for long enough to make any difference. I
know that before I heard the doctor tell me that if I wanted to see my
children grow up I'd better lose some weight and reduce the stress in my
life, I knew I should lose weight--even knew how--but just hadn't quite
gotten around to making that commitment. I guess I see FFID as insulting
and negative, rather than caring and concerned. Which is why I don't use
it. But others may not perceive it the same as I do.


I always thought a person in denial meant that they didn't know they had a
problem. I think being in, or coming to this group, or dieting, or
whatever, pretty much means they know they have a problem. Therefore
they're not in denial.

I'm beginning to think that it doesn't mean they don't know they are
overweight--it means that they don't think they can lose weight, no matter
what. So they deny that eating less and exercising more will help them.

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Jen" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"The Historian" wrote in message
ups.com...

teachrmama wrote:
"Willow Herself" wrote in
message et...
Either way I think the expression is being widely overused in here,
a lot
of people are assuming a lot about others.... generally without
having a
clue what the h... they are talking about.

I had never heard the saying until I came here. But I agree with
you--you
can't assume that someone is in denial unless you live in their skin.

I have to disagree. I lived most of my adult life as a FFID. I think I
can determine if a person is a FFID based on what they say or write.
Besides, a person who is a FFID, or, perhaps more kindly, suffering
from a FFID disorder, doesn't know they have a problem. Living in their
skin doesn't tell you anything other than the facts the FFID is unhappy
and there's always a reason they can't lose weight.

I have 2 sisters that are extremely heavy. One is morbidly obese, and
suffers from all kinds of problems. She claims that she barely eats
anything, but doesn't ever lose weight. Perhaps she is right--her
metabolism could be extremely slow. But I don't think she is in denial
as much as in a very hopeless psychological state of being. Because she
can tell you that she needs to lose weight--she just doesn't seem able
to take the steps to get there for long enough to make any difference.
I know that before I heard the doctor tell me that if I wanted to see my
children grow up I'd better lose some weight and reduce the stress in my
life, I knew I should lose weight--even knew how--but just hadn't quite
gotten around to making that commitment. I guess I see FFID as
insulting and negative, rather than caring and concerned. Which is why
I don't use it. But others may not perceive it the same as I do.


I always thought a person in denial meant that they didn't know they had
a problem. I think being in, or coming to this group, or dieting, or
whatever, pretty much means they know they have a problem. Therefore
they're not in denial.

I'm beginning to think that it doesn't mean they don't know they are
overweight--it means that they don't think they can lose weight, no matter
what. So they deny that eating less and exercising more will help them.

I guess it depends on what they're denying then.


Jen

Very good measured response though I doubt that Edna will pay any attention.

Calories count and the only way Edna will lose weight is to burn more
calories than she consumes. Everything boils down to adopting new permanent
lifestyle changes that result in negative energy balances so that weight
will be loss. You can eat less caloric dense foods and exercise more via
these new lifestyles you must adopt to drop to a healthier weight.


"determined" wrote in message
...

"Edna Pearl" wrote in message
...
Well Jesus Christ, that's real encouraging. I don't think I've ever
received a message that unpleasant and discouraging in a support group
from anybody -- except of course trolls.

Fortunately, the message is so totally loaded with fallacies I can't take
it very seriously. It focusses entirely on calorie-counting while
failing to point out a single solitary thing I might change except
suggesting I count calories.

No, that is not true. I said you need to find out what your current
caloric intake is so you can figure out what you are maintaining at,
because obviously you are maintaining, which means you do not have a
caloric deficit.

I also said you need to get your heart rate up to burn more calories.
Lifting weight doesn't do that and neither does yoga type stretching.

I also suggested starting with a 30 minute walk every day.

So as far as not pointing out "a single solitary thing I might change",
maybe you need to reread my post.

Plenty of people, in fact, MOST people lose weight without
counting calories. Including people you purport to admire, like Krista,
who knows considerably more about fitness and nutrition than you do.

I do admire Krista. She has a tremendous amount of info on her website.
However, ymmv. If Krista's information is working out for you, then by
all means, keep doing what you are doing.

Trying to
find a "baseline" and then work around it is voodoo dieting that fails to
take account of how much a person's bodily processes and metabolism
changes -- it's a waste of time unless the person takes some motivation
from the counting process itself, and I don't.

If you don't know what your average calorie intake is, how can you know
what you need to change?

Furthermore, my reference to
"weather permitting" simply means, for example, that I don't swim
outdoors in winter (we just had an entire thread here about people who
don't bicycle in cold weather, which, in fact, I DO) -- and your
assumption that it means something else says a lot more about you than it
does me.

NO, what you said was "I kayak, bicycle, hike, and swim when weather and
my energy evels permit". YOu can hike and bicycle in almost any weather,
so your blanket statement sounds more like a copout than anything.

Oh, and thanks
for telling me I need to stop feeling sorry for myself about my mom
dying. Aren't you a special person.

YOu know, I was not referring to your mother dying. I am sorry for your
loss, but I am referring to your "poor me" attitude about weight loss -
you have a plethora of reasons (excuses) why you are fat, and why you
cannot lose weight. There are many people here with super busy
lifestyles, health problems, etc, that have managed to lose plenty of
weight.

I could go on and on, but **** that, I have a life. If nobody in this ng
can come up with anything better than that, I guess I know all I need to
know about this "support group."

I guess Edna what you really need right now is a hug. Well, here you go
HUGS. I guess you didn't come here for honest opinions and
advice,
but for atta boys and warm fuzzy encouragement. Sorry, I don't do that.
But maybe someone else here will.


Oh, and Betsy, **** you. "You might not like hearing that," but it's
considerably nicer than and just as productive as what you've said to me.
How's this for advice: You need learn at least learn some manners, if
you can't manage to grow any compassion.

Manners? I guess I could take some lessons from you, huh?



ep

"determined" wrote in message
...

"Edna Pearl" wrote in message
...
Can you help?

My progress just feels too slow, and I am discouraged.

Number one, I don't weigh myself, and I'm not going to. I don't count
calories, and I'm not going to. I'm 49yo, and I've been through that
****,
and it wasn't productive when I was younger, and it's not going to be
productive now that I'm older, perimenopausal, with all sorts of
orthopedic
problems. I don't count things in any aspect of my life.

I'm 5'4", American , I have weighed in the 130s most of my life, size
8-10.
I topped out around 230, size 22, while I was ill and my mother was
dying
last year. I weigh around 200 right now and am a size 16-18. I went
through a couple of kinds of hell last year. When my mother finally
died in
March and I quit drinking my way through my pain in May, the first 30
pounds
dropped off immediately. (I know this because I was going to the
doctor and
hospital frequently and was weighed there. Again, I don't weigh
myself.)

I write for a living and have an sedentary, academic, artistic
lifestyle,
except for the fact that I ride my bike to do my errands a couple of
times a
week, and I have large gardens (flower and vegetable) that my SO
maintains
and that I help in and walk around in every day. Add to that, I try to
lift
a couple of times a week (heavy, complex). I kayak, bicycle, hike, and
swim
when weather and my energy levels permit -- so I do one of these about
once
a week. I start my days with stretching, including yoga postures.

I sleep 10-12 hours per day. Weird, I know, but I've always needed a
lot of
sleep to function at my best. I believe I have a metabolism that is
toward
the slow end of the spectrum.

I also have some physical injuries (atrophied right rhomboid, chronic
plantar fasciitis (sp?) in left foot, chronic subluxation of left hip,
and,
at the moment, tendonitis in my left shoulder and elbow that has been
there
for MONTHS and just WON'T get better). I am in fairly constant pain,
which interrupts my sleep.

Okay, so I quit drinking in May and started my current way of eating in
mid-October. I keep a checklist of food portions on my fridge and
check off
what I eat, as follows:

2-3 dairy
3-4 fruit
4 veggies
6 meat/protein
8 whole grains/carbs

The portions are as follows:

Dairy: a cup of milk or yogurt, or 1-1/2 ounces of nonfat or lowfat
cheese
Fruit: a medium apple, banana, or orange; 1/2 cup of chopped cooked or
canned fruit; or 3/4 cup of fruit juice
Vegetables: a cup of raw, leafy vegetables; 1/2 cup of other vegetables
(cooked or chopped raw); or 3/4 cup of vegetable juice
Meat/protein: one ounce cooked lean meat, poultry, or fish; one egg;
1/2 cup
of cooked legumes; three ounces of tofu; or two tablespoons of peanut
butter
Grains/carbs: one-half bagel, one slice of bread, 3/4 cup of
ready-to-eat
cereal, 1/2 cup of cooked cereal or pasta, or 3 cups of popcorn

I add flax seed oil to my diet and take calcium and a good multivitamin
daily. I take extra iron when I have a big blood loss, which
occasionally happens during this phase of the Joys Of Middle-Aged
Womanhood.

I have adhered to this WOE pretty closely since mid-October. My butt
shrank a little, immediately. My waist has not budged. Not BUDGED.
My next goal is to get into a pair of size 14 technical pants I have
hanging in my closet, and I am NO CLOSER than I was at the end of
October.

Before I quit drinking, started watching my diet, and developed a
better exercise routine, I was bedridden for months at a time, slept
even more than I do now, drank heavily, ate whatever the hell I wanted
(including fast food, restaurant portions four times a decent portion
size and swimming in butter, cookie binges, whatever). It seems to me
that I should be seeing more results than I am. I'm still tired and
fat, and I still have low energy.

Are my expectations unrealistic? Is my thinking wrong? How can I see
results?

ep

Are your expectations unrealistic? Maybe. You want something that for
most of us requires sacrifice, hard work, and diligence. You don't seem
willing to do what it will take to reach the goal you want.

Is your thinking wrong? That is very subjective, but imo, yes. You
have a very close minded attitude towards counting calories. You seem
to be unwilling to change, and ****ed off that you can't lose weight
with your current WOL. Change happens when we become willing to take
the necessary steps to make it happen. The question is, how bad do you
want it?

How can you see results? Stop feeling sorry for yourself and get with
the program! You need to figure out where you stand with your current
caloric intake to find out what you "maintain" on. You need to get your
heart rate up and burn some extra calories to create a better deficit.
Yoga stretches don't count. Doing exercise "when weather and energy
permit" is a copout attitude. You need to make more of an effort if you
want to see results. Walking for 30 minutes per day would be a good
start.

Sleeping for 10-12 hrs per day sounds to me like serious depression or
some other medical problem that needs addressing. Have you had all your
levels checked? Had a recent panel done? Ruled out any hormone issues?

You're either going to have to accept your body the way it is now, or
become willing to pay the price to reach your goals. You might not like
hearing that, but that's the way it is. Losing weight doesn't occur
through osmosis ;-)