Just How Many Calories, Then?

DZ wrote:
TC wrote:
wrote:
"TC" wrote:
Doug Freese wrote:
"TC" wrote:
These "restricted calorie" studies are pure crap. The control
groups are usually fed un-natural pelletized manufactured crap
for food. Then when they feed the test group less of the crap
food, they live longer than the control group. Then they
attribute it to restricted calories. Hey, the less poison you
eat the longer you will live. It is that simple. It has nothing
to do with calories.

How can anyone have an intelligent dissussion with TC when he see's
ghosts and goblins 252 days of year.

Have you read any of the studies discussed? I have.

Reading and understanding are two different things.

It isn't rocket science. Trust me, it isn't rocket science. Rocket
science has actually succeeded and has actually placed a man on the
moon and probes on Mars. Food science has only succeeded in giving
us the highest rates of obesity and diet related chronic disease in
world history, which is diametrically opposite to their stated
goals. I suggest you start reading these nutrition studies closely
and with an, at least, mildly critical eye. You will get an
education on what garbage science really is.

CR studies are not a subset of "nutrition science". Here is a good
recent review:

http://www.sciam.com/print_version.c...8083414B7F0000

CR studies are not a subset of "nutrition science", it is "nutrition
science", whether you want it to be or not.

YV

CR *prevents* loss of muscle mass?? How so?

From the little I've read/heard, one claim stuck in my mind:

That CR works across *all* species, in every specie tested, including
spiders! wow....

The question then is, how restricted is restricted?

It's not, as one poster stated, cal in cal out-- that's the condition for
weight *loss*, which is not a long-term steady-state condition.
CR *is* steady state, corresonding to a weight less than "normal".
But again, how much less?

Beyond life extension, the best rationale for CR is that it, well, saves
money!

And the other point raised is a good one:
Finding research that's not total bull****.
Partial bull****, ok, but not total.
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"DZ" wrote in message
. ..
Doug Freyburger wrote:
NYC XYZ wrote:
What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??

And how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO
map.

Whether they map convincingly inversely depends on the degree a person
who's looking at the evidence enjoys food. It's just the rule, like
Newton laws. But here go the monkeys -

http://www.technologyreview.com/read...572&ch=biotech

Interestingly, in monkeys, CR is preventing the loss of muscle mass,
just like it does in aging rats and mice.

Oh, to be a monkey!

people lived hundreds of years before the flood
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...er=5&version=9 and
120 was the age limit set in Genesis 6:3
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...er=6&version=9
TP wrote:
"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message oups.com...
NYC XYZ wrote:

What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??

And how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO map.

Note that rats are fed a high carb grain based diet. Reduce their feed
30% and they live longer. The calorie people will point at the reduced
calorie count and say eat less. The carb people will point at the
reduced carb count and say eat low carb. The grain intolerance
people will look at rats and ask "mooo?" figuring rats eat grain and
are therefore related to cattle. The vegans will point out that the
rats
aren't getting meat are the ones that are healthy.

We can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and feed
each set a different number of calories and see how it comes out 120
years later.


Now you've done it. You've gone and trampled upon a religion called CRON whose god is the late Roy Walford, M.D. Walford wrote the CRON bible The 120 Year Diet. He didn't make it past 79. But dying of ALS doesn't count. He would have lived to 120 if he hadn't died.

When you're an athiest there is no afterlife except if you have faith in getting frozen and later revivified, so you've got to believe CRON will enable you to live forever. It's not nice to trample on other people's religion.
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DIVFONT face=Arial size=2/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial size=2"Doug Freyburger" </FONTA
"FONT face=Arial
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DIVFONT face=Arial size=2> NYC XYZ wrote:BR> >BR> > What
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rats are fed a high carb grain based diet.  Reduce their feedBR> 30%
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calorie count and say eat less.  The carb people will point at theBR>
reduced carb count and say eat low carb.  The grain intoleranceBR>
people will look at rats and ask "mooo?" figuring rats eat grain andBR> are
therefore related to cattle.  The vegans will point out that theBR>
ratsBR> aren't getting meat are the ones that are healthy.BR> BR>
We can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and feedBR>
each set a different number of calories and see how it comes out 120BR>
years later.BR> /FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial size=2/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial size=2Now you've done it.  You've gone and trampled
upon a religion called CRON whose god is the late Roy Walford,
M.D. Walford wrote the CRON bible UThe 120 Year Diet/U. 
He didn't make it past 79. But dying of ALS
doesn't count.  He would have lived to 120 if he hadn't
died.  /FONT/DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial size=2/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT face=Arial size=2When you're an athiest there is no afterlife except
if you have faith in getting frozen and later revivified, so you've got to
believe CRON will enable you to live forever.  It's not nice to trample on
other people's religion./FONT/DIV/BODY/HTML

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C6FDFB.5F6F8300--

Oh yeah, I seem to remember reading sumpn bout BW 20-30% below Met Life
tables, BMI, or whatever std is in vogue, as "CR".
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
CR *prevents* loss of muscle mass?? How so?

From the little I've read/heard, one claim stuck in my mind:

That CR works across *all* species, in every specie tested, including
spiders! wow....

The question then is, how restricted is restricted?

It's not, as one poster stated, cal in cal out-- that's the condition
for
weight *loss*, which is not a long-term steady-state condition.
CR *is* steady state, corresonding to a weight less than "normal".
But again, how much less?

Beyond life extension, the best rationale for CR is that it, well, saves
money!

And the other point raised is a good one:
Finding research that's not total bull****.
Partial bull****, ok, but not total.
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"DZ" wrote in message
. ..
Doug Freyburger wrote:
NYC XYZ wrote:
What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??

And how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO
map.

Whether they map convincingly inversely depends on the degree a person
who's looking at the evidence enjoys food. It's just the rule, like
Newton laws. But here go the monkeys -

http://www.technologyreview.com/read...572&ch=biotech

Interestingly, in monkeys, CR is preventing the loss of muscle mass,
just like it does in aging rats and mice.

Oh, to be a monkey!

In article ,
"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Oh yeah, I seem to remember reading sumpn bout BW 20-30% below Met Life
tables, BMI, or whatever std is in vogue, as "CR".
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
CR *prevents* loss of muscle mass?? How so?

From the little I've read/heard, one claim stuck in my mind:

That CR works across *all* species, in every specie tested, including
spiders! wow....

The question then is, how restricted is restricted?

It's not, as one poster stated, cal in cal out-- that's the condition
for
weight *loss*, which is not a long-term steady-state condition.
CR *is* steady state, corresonding to a weight less than "normal".
But again, how much less?

Beyond life extension, the best rationale for CR is that it, well, saves
money!

And the other point raised is a good one:
Finding research that's not total bull****.
Partial bull****, ok, but not total.
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"DZ" wrote in message
. ..
Doug Freyburger wrote:
NYC XYZ wrote:
What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??

And how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO
map.

Whether they map convincingly inversely depends on the degree a person
who's looking at the evidence enjoys food. It's just the rule, like
Newton laws. But here go the monkeys -

http://www.technologyreview.com/read...572&ch=biotech

Interestingly, in monkeys, CR is preventing the loss of muscle mass,
just like it does in aging rats and mice.

Oh, to be a monkey!




The Scientist online mag suggested today that lowering the core
temperature of mice .5 celcius resulted in a 15% increase in life span.
The suggestion was the mechanism for calorie restriction working was
lowered core temperature. If so it would be interesting to see if people
(who live in more regulated environments) have a corresponding core
temperature reduction.

--
Keith

Except the body will not allow a lowered core temp--unless hypothermia is
OK, regardless of ambient temp.
A 5 deg C core temp change is a drop of 9.5 deg F--well into hypothermia.
I'm sure those mice weren't very perky or peppy.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Hobbes" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Oh yeah, I seem to remember reading sumpn bout BW 20-30% below Met Life
tables, BMI, or whatever std is in vogue, as "CR".
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to
reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote
in
message ...
CR *prevents* loss of muscle mass?? How so?

From the little I've read/heard, one claim stuck in my mind:

That CR works across *all* species, in every specie tested, including
spiders! wow....

The question then is, how restricted is restricted?

It's not, as one poster stated, cal in cal out-- that's the condition
for
weight *loss*, which is not a long-term steady-state condition.
CR *is* steady state, corresonding to a weight less than "normal".
But again, how much less?

Beyond life extension, the best rationale for CR is that it, well,
saves
money!

And the other point raised is a good one:
Finding research that's not total bull****.
Partial bull****, ok, but not total.
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to
reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"DZ" wrote in message
. ..
Doug Freyburger wrote:
NYC XYZ wrote:
What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??

And how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO
map.

Whether they map convincingly inversely depends on the degree a person
who's looking at the evidence enjoys food. It's just the rule, like
Newton laws. But here go the monkeys -

http://www.technologyreview.com/read...572&ch=biotech

Interestingly, in monkeys, CR is preventing the loss of muscle mass,
just like it does in aging rats and mice.

Oh, to be a monkey!




The Scientist online mag suggested today that lowering the core
temperature of mice .5 celcius resulted in a 15% increase in life span.
The suggestion was the mechanism for calorie restriction working was
lowered core temperature. If so it would be interesting to see if people
(who live in more regulated environments) have a corresponding core
temperature reduction.

--
Keith

"TC" wrote in message
ps.com...


It isn't rocket science. Trust me, it isn't rocket science. Rocket
science has actually succeeded and has actually placed a man on the
moon and probes on Mars. snip
TC


Dude, we never went to the moon.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...the+moon&hl=en

On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 16:11:16 -0600, Hobbes
wrote:

In article ,
"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Oh yeah, I seem to remember reading sumpn bout BW 20-30% below Met Life
tables, BMI, or whatever std is in vogue, as "CR".
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
CR *prevents* loss of muscle mass?? How so?

From the little I've read/heard, one claim stuck in my mind:

That CR works across *all* species, in every specie tested, including
spiders! wow....

The question then is, how restricted is restricted?

It's not, as one poster stated, cal in cal out-- that's the condition
for
weight *loss*, which is not a long-term steady-state condition.
CR *is* steady state, corresonding to a weight less than "normal".
But again, how much less?

Beyond life extension, the best rationale for CR is that it, well, saves
money!

And the other point raised is a good one:
Finding research that's not total bull****.
Partial bull****, ok, but not total.
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"DZ" wrote in message
. ..
Doug Freyburger wrote:
NYC XYZ wrote:
What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??

And how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO
map.

Whether they map convincingly inversely depends on the degree a person
who's looking at the evidence enjoys food. It's just the rule, like
Newton laws. But here go the monkeys -

http://www.technologyreview.com/read...572&ch=biotech

Interestingly, in monkeys, CR is preventing the loss of muscle mass,
just like it does in aging rats and mice.

Oh, to be a monkey!




The Scientist online mag suggested today that lowering the core
temperature of mice .5 celcius resulted in a 15% increase in life span.

Recent scientific findings suggest the same kind of benefits from
drinking red wine - in moderation of course!

However, a corollary of this little snippet is that if you drink
immoderately, you die younger but you don't really give a ****!

;o)

"TC" wrote in message
ps.com...

wrote:
On 1 Nov 2006 19:09:26 -0800, "TC" wrote:


Doug Freese wrote:
"TC" wrote in message
oups.com...
These "restricted calorie" studies are pure crap. The control
groups
are usually fed un-natural pelletized manufactured crap for
food. Then
when they feed the test group less of the crap food, they live
longer
than the control group. Then they attribute it to restricted
calories.
Hey, the less poison you eat the longer you will live. It is
that
simple. It has nothing to do with calories.


How can anyone have an intelligent dissussion with TC when he
see's
ghosts and goblins 252 days of year.

-DF

Have you read any of the studies discussed? I have.

TC

Reading and understanding are two different things.

It isn't rocket science. Trust me, it isn't rocket science.

We agree, it isn't rocket science. Eat too much you get fat. Eat
balanced, avoid simple sugars and overly processed food and by all
means, exercise and you will be healthy and not fat. Very simple indeed!

Food science has only succeeded in giving us
the highest rates of obesity and diet related chronic disease in world
history, which is diametrically opposite to their stated goals.

To many calories has caused the obesity.


I suggest you start reading these nutrition studies closely and with
an, at least, mildly critical eye. You will get an education on what
garbage science really is.

And there is a boogie man hiding behind very tree.

-DF

That was a 0.5 degree temperature reduction. 5 degrees and you die of
hypothermia. Starvation probably affects core temp. in people as well.
Do you want to live longer cold and starving?


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote
in message ...
Except the body will not allow a lowered core temp--unless hypothermia
is OK, regardless of ambient temp.
A 5 deg C core temp change is a drop of 9.5 deg F--well into
hypothermia.
I'm sure those mice weren't very perky or peppy.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to
reply--ie, all d'numbuhs

"Hobbes" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Oh yeah, I seem to remember reading sumpn bout BW 20-30% below Met
Life
tables, BMI, or whatever std is in vogue, as "CR".
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to
reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote in
message ...
CR *prevents* loss of muscle mass?? How so?

From the little I've read/heard, one claim stuck in my mind:

That CR works across *all* species, in every specie tested,
including
spiders! wow....

The question then is, how restricted is restricted?

It's not, as one poster stated, cal in cal out-- that's the
condition
for
weight *loss*, which is not a long-term steady-state condition.
CR *is* steady state, corresonding to a weight less than "normal".
But again, how much less?

Beyond life extension, the best rationale for CR is that it, well,
saves
money!

And the other point raised is a good one:
Finding research that's not total bull****.
Partial bull****, ok, but not total.
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to
reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"DZ" wrote in message
. ..
Doug Freyburger wrote:
NYC XYZ wrote:
What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??

And how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO
map.

Whether they map convincingly inversely depends on the degree a
person
who's looking at the evidence enjoys food. It's just the rule,
like
Newton laws. But here go the monkeys -

http://www.technologyreview.com/read...572&ch=biotech

Interestingly, in monkeys, CR is preventing the loss of muscle
mass,
just like it does in aging rats and mice.

Oh, to be a monkey!




The Scientist online mag suggested today that lowering the core
temperature of mice .5 celcius resulted in a 15% increase in life
span.
The suggestion was the mechanism for calorie restriction working was
lowered core temperature. If so it would be interesting to see if
people
(who live in more regulated environments) have a corresponding core
temperature reduction.

--
Keith