Two Week Induction Results

wrote:

Why worry about how many calories are in a half cup of blue cheese
dressing, as long as you're losing very nicely?

Who uses a half a cup of dressing at a time anyhow? Unless they're
swimming in it. Sheesh.

"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message
ups.com...
"em" wrote:
"Aaron Baugher" wrote:
"em" writes:

I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting
out. In addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common
sense.

I'm not sure why that amount is "a bit much" for you.

I did low-carb some time back, maybe eight or so years ago? I did really
well for quite a while & then I screwed it up pretty bad. So I learned a
lot
about what to do, what to not do and how to really screw up. I'm trying
to
carry those lessons forward.

So many people screw it up and need to start again. I've done
it. The important part is to ask yourself what choices you have
that actually work - Quiting and gaining it all back sure doesn't,
so the real choice is switching to some other type of plan or
trying to learn a lesson each fall so the next fall doesn't happen
for longer than the last one.

So what happened?

The same thing that happened to my previous quit smoking attempts. One
cheat -- got away with it. Two cheats, three cheats... pretty soon back to a
pack a day.

The speed at which I can gain back lost weight is *amazing*. I don't have
any stats, but it seems like 25 pounds in a month is nothing. I'm sure a lot
of that is water, but holy cow.

I'm a [insert word] addict. Carbs addict, food addict, whatever.

There are a few things that have changed in my life that make me believe
that I will succeed this time for the long run. For one, I'm older and more
mature. Two is that I'm at the tail end of my divorce and wanting to date.
No women, it seems, wants to date an obese guy. Number three is that I went
through a very minor scare re. my heart. I went in for all kinds of testing,
nuclear whatever, treadmil, and my heart is in perfect shape. However, that
is like a HUGE blessing from G-d based on how I've treated my body. So, last
but not least, I'm hitting "middle age" & am starting to realize that I am
no longer immortal.

One thing I learned was that, at that time, IIRC, my tolerance for carbs
on
OWL was around 35,

This means you were out of ketosis at 40, right? That's how
you find your CCLL - out of ketosis and/or carb cravings start
no matter how you get to that carb count even with broccoli.

Yes, and would start gaining back a little instead of losing it.

Or eat root veggies like a serving
of carrot with dinner ...

Carrots are about four carbs each. Not much, I know, but they're kind of a
trigger for me. I can eat a one pound bag of baby carrots just as easily as
a pound of raw almonds! So I may buy a nice carrot sometime at the grocery
store, then sit down on a bench outside the store and eat it as a treat.
Maybe if I'm on a walk & go past the store or something.

I also learned that a
lot of the foods that one is allowed to have when you up your carb limit
are
foods that are real "trigger foods" for me, such as nuts and seeds.

I've been thinking about that too. I'm getting a little anxous to up my carb
limit because I am starting to feel a little limited by the foods I can eat.
But I'm still commited to taking it slow.

On Atkins no food is ever allowed if it's a trigger. The carb
ladder is the order to try things to find out if they are a trigger
for you, not a list of what is allowed at what carb quota. If
you didn't understand this, you missed half of the conceptual
framework of the Atkins approach.

I read the old book, the first DANDR. I never bought the second one. I also
read the original Protein Power, CAD, etc. I know how to count carbs and
why; I should probably buy one of the newer low-carb books and learn more.

What I remember from doing LC in the past is that you lose quite a bit
during the first two weeks, mostly water. Sometime within the next few
weeks
you hit a period where you don't make any progress for about a week, and
then you fall into your regular loss pattern, whatever that is, say one
to
two pounds a week.

That's the expected pattern. It is never guaranteed and each
restart has its own chance of following expected patterns or not.

I went on-and-off low-carb so many times in the past, I built up a tolerance
or something and it just plain stopped working for me. It seems to be going
pretty well now, though.

I believe my OWL carb tolerance is going to be fairly low, and I'm not as
active as I was back then. I want to stick with 20 carbs until I see my
weight loss fall into some sort of pattern so that I can perform a
reasonably valid experiment to find out what my daily carb limit should
be.

Do you have the belief that adding carbs will reduce your
loss rate? It won't. Keep your carbs too low and thyroid
starts cutting T3 output. That causes basal metabolism
to drift down and reduces loss rates.


That's an interesting thought! Do you have a reference for that?

The point of CCLL is
it sets the carb intake high enough for the T3 reduction to
not happen but to keep insulin low enough for fat to flow
out of storage not into it.

I'm not interested in staying at 20 carbs forever. I've done induction & am
looking forward to finding what my tolerance will be.

Lets see, I'm at 245. I don't know exactly where I need to be weight wise,
but I am a very big framed person. I'm thinking between 210 and 220 will be
about right. Either way, I expect to be there by the end of this year.


If it tends to
cause cravings, you may want to start monitoring your blood sugar.
Twenty g/day, or even 30g, shouldn't cause significant cravings if
your blood sugar is at all under control, but it could if you're
diabetic.

I do have type-2.

Then controlling blood sugar levels aces loss rates for you.
Track meter ratings as you move your quota up. Stop the
increases if you either drop out of ketosis or your blood
sugar levels start going up.

I have been controlling my blood sugar through my diet for quite a long time
& don't have my finger-poker kit any more. (Probably in the x's garage
somewhere.)


There are a lot of things I have to look out for! Things that I want to
eat,
that are low-carb, but I know I have difficulty with, I buy in small
amounts. Like almonds -- yah, I can buy the 16oz package for $3.99 but
they'll disappear that night. So I buy the 2 oz packackage for $1.99 and
save a dollar.

For me it's cashews. No matter the size of the package of
cashews I eat them until it's empty. Not a bad thing with a
two ounce package. A very bad thing with a 16 ounce jar!
My strategy was to try other nuts until I found one I didn't
have that problem with. A box of almonds, pecans or filberts
for me can last a long time since I can take a handful, close
the lid, and not think of it again for a couple of days.

I love 'em all. Sunflower seeds are a good snack for me because you can find
them in small packages just about anywhere.

So is using a smaller package the right idea given the
principles of Atkins? Food intolerances trigger binges and
addictive responses according to Atkins. The way to acheive
long term control is to learn all of your intolerances and
practice complete avoidance on them. Eat small packages
to control your portions and what you're doing is gradually
eroding your control. Especially at first I suggest following
this Atkins concept carefully. Try something other than
almonds for a while not sue small packages.

Makes sense. This is in the second book?


Actually, I've been doing pretty damn good. My kids have all kinds of
carb-o-la (as in crap-o-la) around the house, and I'm not even tempted to
touch it. I know, for a fact, that if I have that one bite of the wrong
food, I'll screw myself up.

One bite really does hurt. Maybe a direct binge, maybe
gradual erosion of control. Those temptations will never,
ever, ever, stop being under our noses in this world.

"Gradual erosion of control." To me, that is where the "just one bite"
philosophy goes. Been there. Done that. I don't care who's b-day it is or
who I offend, I am not going to have that "one little bite" of birthday cake
no matter how hard my fat friends try to shove it down my thought. *******s!
They're the reason I'm fat, you know ;-)))

I rarely eat meals, I snack (and snack and snack) all day long. I might
eat
bacon & eggs two or three times a day.

Hard to control. The concept of "three square meals" may be
nonsense for some, but I think for you it needs to be a goal.

Elaborate on that, please. It is calories/carbs per day that count. I find
my appitite is under much better control when I try to keep my stomach
small. I'm a big guy, and if I were to cut down to three squares a day, I'd
have to enlarge my stomach (I think). I'm not seeing that as a good idea,
but I'd like to hear you out on that.


Set up long term habits that give control not take it away.

When I was doing low-cal I was writing down everything I ate. I eat like
10
to 15 times a day, and THAT'S when I'm watching myself and counting
calories! (I seem to be eating fewer times during the day since I started
induction.)

Journalling is still a good idea on low carb.

I'm going to hold off on that & see where I go with what I'm doing now. I
really hate having to write down everything I eat. I'll do it if I have to,
but only if I have to.

3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that
I've really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage
cheese, something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on
low-carb, on a daily bases. NOT ME.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "tolerate." Can you elaborate?

By tolerate, I mean what I can or cannot eat and still do well in regards
to
losing weight, be that carb count or the propensity of a certain food to
drive me towards a binge.

If it gives the urge to binge you need to avoid it not allow yourself
one or two exposures per week. Find other stuff to use as treats.


Another interesting thought! With cigarettes, you can give them up
completely. Same with liquor. Food, if your a food addict, you can't just
stop eating. I have been doing pretty good at controlling my binging for
some time now and still eat a lot of the foods I really enjoy. I bought a
16oz container of cottage cheese this week -- one of my favorite foods -- it
lasted for four days & I stayed within my limits. I've had two 2oz packages
of almonds and that went pretty well too. I could probably binge on just
about anything. If I do find something that drives me nuts and makes me want
to binge, as I continue on, I'll definitely avoid that food in the future.

Thanks!

"The Queen of Cans and Jars" wrote in message
. ..
wrote:

Why worry about how many calories are in a half cup of blue cheese
dressing, as long as you're losing very nicely?

Who uses a half a cup of dressing at a time anyhow? Unless they're
swimming in it. Sheesh.

C'mon now... I think we've all swam in some sort of something at one time or
another or we wouldn't be here. We'd be hanging out with our skinny friends
who pole vault during their lunch breaks.

I did say a 1/4 cup two times/day. That's only 4T -- not a lot of dressing
on a big green salad (with Tuna.... yummm...)

em wrote:

"The Queen of Cans and Jars" wrote in message
. ..
wrote:

Why worry about how many calories are in a half cup of blue cheese
dressing, as long as you're losing very nicely?

Who uses a half a cup of dressing at a time anyhow? Unless they're
swimming in it. Sheesh.

C'mon now... I think we've all swam in some sort of something at one time or
another or we wouldn't be here. We'd be hanging out with our skinny friends
who pole vault during their lunch breaks.

I did say a 1/4 cup two times/day. That's only 4T -- not a lot of dressing
on a big green salad (with Tuna.... yummm...)

I've never used a half cup of dressing on a salad in my life. I
generally thin mine down with vinegar, so a tablespoon is more than
enough.

On Jul 30, 11:05 am, Doug Freyburger wrote:
"em" wrote:

End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering this was a
switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty damn good, as I
didn't have bags of water to drop. Overall, I am now down more then fifty
pounds from my original 298, and I'm really happy about that.

Especially since you switched from another type of plan, that
is a superior result.

I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting out. In
addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common sense.

Do you have any evidence for thinking that if low is good,
lower must be better? It's not true. The concept of the Atkins
CCLL is that every body has its own customized ideal carb
intake level for loss, and CCLM for maintenance. The idea of
the initial 20 is it's so low almost no one has ideal levels that
low.


I'd say the best evidence that lower carb leads to faster weight loss
is Atkins himself. When going over the option of why soemeone may
want to stay at induction level of carbs longer, he asked the
rhetorical question "Do you have a lot to lose?" Now if he thought
lower carbs resulted in slower weight loss, it would be very strange
to suggest people with a lot to lose may want to consider staying on
induction longer. And if he thought higher carbs were better, that
would be a perfect time to just say so too.

I;ve presented this to you before, yet you ignore it.

Do you have the belief that adding carbs will reduce your
loss rate? It won't. Keep your carbs too low and thyroid
starts cutting T3 output. That causes basal metabolism
to drift down and reduces loss rates. The point of CCLL is
it sets the carb intake high enough for the T3 reduction to
not happen but to keep insulin low enough for fat to flow
out of storage not into it.



He isn't the only one that has seen this. In fact, adding carbs and
seeing weight loss slowly decrease is part of the whole concept of
Atkins as you move through the stages. And at some point the weight
loss stops all together. You think there is just some magic on/off
point, and you can add carbs and weight loss just goes on at a fixed
rate, until you past some point and then it instantly stops. That
hasn't been my experience. Like EM, I've lost most rapidly when at
no more than 20g of carbs. If I add carbs, it slows down.

If it works for him, what's your problem?

em wrote:
:: I'm a [insert word] addict. Carbs addict, food addict, whatever.
::
:: There are a few things that have changed in my life that make me
:: believe that I will succeed this time for the long run. For one, I'm
:: older and more mature. Two is that I'm at the tail end of my divorce
:: and wanting to date. No women, it seems, wants to date an obese guy.
:: Number three is that I went through a very minor scare re. my heart.
:: I went in for all kinds of testing, nuclear whatever, treadmil, and
:: my heart is in perfect shape. However, that is like a HUGE blessing
:: from G-d based on how I've treated my body. So, last but not least,
:: I'm hitting "middle age" & am starting to realize that I am no
:: longer immortal.

This sounds exactly like something I might have written back in 2001 before
I started LCing.

The Queen of Cans and Jars wrote:
:: em wrote:
::
::: "The Queen of Cans and Jars" wrote in
::: message . ..
:::: wrote:
::::
::::: Why worry about how many calories are in a half cup of blue cheese
::::: dressing, as long as you're losing very nicely?
::::
:::: Who uses a half a cup of dressing at a time anyhow? Unless they're
:::: swimming in it. Sheesh.
:::
::: C'mon now... I think we've all swam in some sort of something at
::: one time or another or we wouldn't be here. We'd be hanging out
::: with our skinny friends who pole vault during their lunch breaks.
:::
::: I did say a 1/4 cup two times/day. That's only 4T -- not a lot of
::: dressing on a big green salad (with Tuna.... yummm...)
::
:: I've never used a half cup of dressing on a salad in my life. I
:: generally thin mine down with vinegar, so a tablespoon is more than
:: enough.

I'd venture a guess that I have used as much as a half cup of dressing on a
big gut busting salad. Certainly not something you do for weight loss. I
cut my dressing with mustard and the juice that comes of the Mt. Olive Bread
& Butter Pickles which are sweetened with Splenda. That way, I can get it
down to just two tablespoons.

Queenie, us big guys do sh*t like use too much dressing on salads. Normal
doesn't apply (mostly).

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 30, 11:05 am, Doug Freyburger wrote:
"em" wrote:

End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering this
was a
switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty damn good, as I
didn't have bags of water to drop. Overall, I am now down more then
fifty
pounds from my original 298, and I'm really happy about that.

Especially since you switched from another type of plan, that
is a superior result.

I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting out.
In
addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common sense.

Do you have any evidence for thinking that if low is good,
lower must be better? It's not true. The concept of the Atkins
CCLL is that every body has its own customized ideal carb
intake level for loss, and CCLM for maintenance. The idea of
the initial 20 is it's so low almost no one has ideal levels that
low.


I'd say the best evidence that lower carb leads to faster weight loss
is Atkins himself. When going over the option of why soemeone may
want to stay at induction level of carbs longer, he asked the
rhetorical question "Do you have a lot to lose?" Now if he thought
lower carbs resulted in slower weight loss, it would be very strange
to suggest people with a lot to lose may want to consider staying on
induction longer. And if he thought higher carbs were better, that
would be a perfect time to just say so too.

I;ve presented this to you before, yet you ignore it.

No, I have not. I've been overwhelmed with information & busy with work and
not been able to reply to all the posts I'd like to.

"em" writes:

I'm a [insert word] addict. Carbs addict, food addict, whatever.

I've always been resistant to calling it that, simply because there
seems to be a attitude of victimhood that often goes along with
addiction talk, and I suspect that doesn't help people take charge of
their own actions. If you say you're "suffering from whatever", it
makes it sound like something else has control of you. Still, the
parallels between carbohydrate cravings and addictions to drugs and
alcohol are pretty strong, so I do think there are things to be
learned from the comparison.

There are a few things that have changed in my life that make me
believe that I will succeed this time for the long run. For one, I'm
older and more mature. Two is that I'm at the tail end of my divorce
and wanting to date. No women, it seems, wants to date an obese guy.

You'd be surprised. Women really are attracted much more by
personality than looks. If your gut isn't actually hanging out under
your shirt, many women, especially older ones who aren't still caught
up in the fantasy of bagging Brad Pitt, will overlook your size if you
have the right body language. Just look around; there are tons of
dumpy guys married to women far more attractive than them --
physically, anyway.

What you'll probably find -- what I found, anyway -- is that losing
weight improves your confidence drastically, which makes you both much
more attractive to women and more likely to approach them. You don't
have to finish one first; if you work on both, they can build on each
other. Success breeds success, even in other areas of life. Lose a
few pounds, gain some confidence and optimism, your body language
improves, an attractive woman buys you a drink, up goes your
dedication to continued success, more pounds come off, ladies are
asking for your number, etc..... It's a beautiful thing.

Lets see, I'm at 245. I don't know exactly where I need to be weight
wise, but I am a very big framed person. I'm thinking between 210
and 220 will be about right. Either way, I expect to be there by the
end of this year.

Protein Power has a method for determining your ideal weight range, or
you can just lose until you're happy with the way you look. Mine is
about 200 pounds (I'm a very large-framed guy too), so I'm shooting
for next summer to have it all off, but I want to hit 220 by the end
of the year.



--
Aaron -- 285/254/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz