Low-Carb Dieters Eat More Vegetables

A new survey

Low carbohydrate diets in family practice: what can we learn from an
internet-based support group
Richard D Feinman, Mary C Vernon, Eric C Westman
Nutrition Journal 2006, 5:26 (2 October 2006)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=170147 06&dopt=Abstract
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/pdf/1475-2891-5-26.pdf (full text)

which collected and analyzed data from low-carbers, suggests that the
major change in eating patterns for dieters on low-carbohydrate diets
has been the addition of large amounts of vegetables and salads to
replace carbohydrates removed from their diet. Richard Feinman, PhD,
principal author and a professor of biochemistry at SUNY Downstate
Medical Center, notes that 54% of forum dieters increased salad greens
and 34% increased green vegetables by at least double their usual
consumption” in response to removing starches and sugars from their
diets. Quotes:

"ABSTRACT: The Active Low-Carber Forums (ALCF) is an on-line
support group started in 2000 which currently has more than
86,000 members. Data collected from posts to the forum and from
an on-line survey were used to determine the behavior and
attitudes of people on low carbohydrate diets. Members were
asked to complete a voluntary 27-item questionnaire over the
internet. Our major findings are as follows: survey
respondents, like the membership at large, were mostly women
and mostly significantly overweight, a significant number
intending to and, in many cases, succeeding at losing more than
100 lbs. The great majority of members of ALCF identify
themselves as following the Atkins diet or some variation of
it. Although individual posts on the forum and in the narrative
part of our survey are critical of professional help, we found
that more than half of respondents saw a physician before or
during dieting and, of those who did, about half received
support from the physician. Another 28 % found the physician
initially neutral but supportive after positive results were
produced. Using the same criteria as the National Weight
Registry (without follow-up) -- 30 lbs or more lost and
maintained for more than one year -- it was found that more
than 1400 people had successfully used low carb methods. In
terms of food consumed, the perception of more than half of
respondents were that they ate less than before the diet and
whereas high protein, high fat sources replaced carbohydrate to
some extent, the major change indicated by survey-takers is a
large increase in green vegetables and a large decrease in
fruit intake. Government or health agencies were not sources of
information for dieters in this group and a collection of
narrative comments indicates a high level of satisfaction,
indeed enthusiasm for low carbohydrate dieting. The results
provide both a tabulation of the perceived behavior of a
significant number of dieters using low carbohydrate strategies
as well as a collection of narratives that provide a human
perspective on what it is like to be on such a diet. An
important conclusion for the family physician is that it
becomes possible to identify a diet that is used by many people
where the primary principle is replacement of starch and sugar-
containing foods with non-starchy vegetables, with little
addition of fat or protein. Used by many people who identify
themselves as being on the Atkins diet, such a strategy
provides the advantages of carbohydrate-restricted diets but is
less iconoclastic than the popular perception and therefore
more acceptable to traditional nutritionists. It is reasonable
for family practitioners to turn this observation into a
recommendation for patients for weight control and other health
problems.

[...]

Summary

The ALCF offers evidence for the family physician that
carbohydrate restriction is one of the useful choices for
weight loss and general improvement of health. The narrative
reports allow access to patient perceptions and may be more
useful in evaluating diets than official recommendations. The
evidence from the survey suggests physicians who have been
presented with patients desire to reduce carbohydrates are, in
fact, open-minded on the subject. The negative connotations
given by experts to the term “Atkins diet” may not be
appropriate and the actual or perceived behavior of people who
identify themselves as being on such a diet allow physicians to
design a diet that is likely to be efficacious while not
appearing iconoclastic. This last is probably the most
important lesson that can be learned from the Active Low-Carber
Forums.


Comments in

Low-Carb Dieters Eat More Vegetables
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=53685&nfid=rssfeeds


--
Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia wrote:
: A new survey
:
: Low carbohydrate diets in family practice: what can we learn from an
: internet-based support group
: Richard D Feinman, Mary C Vernon, Eric C Westman
: Nutrition Journal 2006, 5:26 (2 October 2006)
:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=170147 06&dopt=Abstract
: http://www.nutritionj.com/content/pdf/1475-2891-5-26.pdf (full text)
:
: which collected and analyzed data from low-carbers, suggests that the
: major change in eating patterns for dieters on low-carbohydrate diets
: has been the addition of large amounts of vegetables and salads to
: replace carbohydrates removed from their diet. Richard Feinman, PhD,
: principal author and a professor of biochemistry at SUNY Downstate
: Medical Center, notes that 54% of forum dieters increased salad greens
: and 34% increased green vegetables by at least double their usual
: consumption" in response to removing starches and sugars from their
: diets.

Yes, but they also eat less fruits. Also I have a concern that people in
low-carb diets would develop a low-grade chronic metabolic acidosis due to
high consumption of acid forming proteins and avoidance of those vegetables
and fruits which are high in potassium i.e. bananas and potatoes.

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju wrote:
Matti Narkia wrote:
: A new survey
:
: Low carbohydrate diets in family practice: what can we learn from an
: internet-based support group
: Richard D Feinman, Mary C Vernon, Eric C Westman
: Nutrition Journal 2006, 5:26 (2 October 2006)
:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=170147 06&dopt=Abstract
: http://www.nutritionj.com/content/pdf/1475-2891-5-26.pdf (full text)
:
: which collected and analyzed data from low-carbers, suggests that the
: major change in eating patterns for dieters on low-carbohydrate diets
: has been the addition of large amounts of vegetables and salads to
: replace carbohydrates removed from their diet. Richard Feinman, PhD,
: principal author and a professor of biochemistry at SUNY Downstate
: Medical Center, notes that 54% of forum dieters increased salad greens
: and 34% increased green vegetables by at least double their usual
: consumption" in response to removing starches and sugars from their
: diets.

Yes, but they also eat less fruits. Also I have a concern that people in
low-carb diets would develop a low-grade chronic metabolic acidosis due to
high consumption of acid forming proteins and avoidance of those vegetables
and fruits which are high in potassium i.e. bananas and potatoes.

How many Asian nations include potatoes and bananas in their standard diet?



It really is a nice and warming feeling to know that you are so
concerned about our (low-carbers') welfare. I was getting worried about
poor Andrew Chung was carrying the "concern for ASD members" load all by
himself. He does love us all you know. Maybe you and Andrew could
arrange alternate days to be concerned for us, you know, cut down on
bandwidth and all that sort of thing.

By the way, your cause for concern is as ridiculous and misplaced as
Andrew's, but I guess that like Andrew, you feel that know better and
can't be told otherwise. Let me know if I am wrong, and I'll tell you
otherwise.

Salty

BTW, does God chat to you too?

Juhana Harju wrote:
|| Matti Narkia wrote:
||| A new survey
|||
||| Low carbohydrate diets in family practice: what can we learn
||| from an
||| internet-based support group
||| Richard D Feinman, Mary C Vernon, Eric C Westman
||| Nutrition Journal 2006, 5:26 (2 October 2006)
|||
||
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=170147 06&dopt=Abstract
||| http://www.nutritionj.com/content/pdf/1475-2891-5-26.pdf
||| (full text)
|||
||| which collected and analyzed data from low-carbers, suggests
||| that the
||| major change in eating patterns for dieters on
||| low-carbohydrate diets
||| has been the addition of large amounts of vegetables and
||| salads to
||| replace carbohydrates removed from their diet. Richard
||| Feinman, PhD,
||| principal author and a professor of biochemistry at SUNY
||| Downstate
||| Medical Center, notes that 54% of forum dieters increased
||| salad greens
||| and 34% increased green vegetables by at least double their
||| usual
||| consumption" in response to removing starches and sugars
||| from their
||| diets.
||
|| Yes, but they also eat less fruits. Also I have a concern
|| that people in
|| low-carb diets would develop a low-grade chronic metabolic
|| acidosis due to
|| high consumption of acid forming proteins and avoidance of
|| those vegetables
|| and fruits which are high in potassium i.e. bananas and
|| potatoes.
||
|| --
|| Juhana

It appears that your reasoning is bogus. Most fruits are
naturally
more acidic than most vegetables.
The condition is normally caused by other health conditions and
and is normally not attributed to diet unless you want to drink
anitfreeze from the articles I read. :-)

--
--
"If God didn't mean us to eat animals, why are they made of
meat?" -- Steven Wright

http://www.obsessionthemovie.com
http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/isacrime.html
http://home.swbell.net/bjtexas/SS/

BJ in Texas wrote:
: Juhana Harju wrote:
::: Matti Narkia wrote:
:::: A new survey
::::
:::: Low carbohydrate diets in family practice: what can we learn
:::: from an
:::: internet-based support group
:::: Richard D Feinman, Mary C Vernon, Eric C Westman
:::: Nutrition Journal 2006, 5:26 (2 October 2006)
::::
:::
:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=170147 06&dopt=Abstract
:::: http://www.nutritionj.com/content/pdf/1475-2891-5-26.pdf
:::: (full text)
::::
:::: which collected and analyzed data from low-carbers, suggests
:::: that the
:::: major change in eating patterns for dieters on
:::: low-carbohydrate diets
:::: has been the addition of large amounts of vegetables and
:::: salads to
:::: replace carbohydrates removed from their diet. Richard
:::: Feinman, PhD,
:::: principal author and a professor of biochemistry at SUNY
:::: Downstate
:::: Medical Center, notes that 54% of forum dieters increased
:::: salad greens
:::: and 34% increased green vegetables by at least double their
:::: usual
:::: consumption" in response to removing starches and sugars
:::: from their
:::: diets.
:::
::: Yes, but they also eat less fruits. Also I have a concern
::: that people in
::: low-carb diets would develop a low-grade chronic metabolic
::: acidosis due to
::: high consumption of acid forming proteins and avoidance of
::: those vegetables
::: and fruits which are high in potassium i.e. bananas and
::: potatoes.
:::
::: --
::: Juhana
:
: It appears that your reasoning is bogus. Most fruits are
: naturally more acidic than most vegetables.

The initial acidicity of fruits when eaten is not the same as their
metabolic effect on acid-alkaline balance in the body.

There are also animal studies showing that some fruits (in addition to some
vegetables) reduce resorption of bone.

: The condition is normally caused by other health conditions and
: and is normally not attributed to diet unless you want to drink
: anitfreeze from the articles I read. :-)

Are you sure? You might want to have a look at this study:

Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Apr;69(4):727-36.
Potassium, magnesium, and fruit and vegetable intakes are associated with
greater bone mineral density in elderly men and women.
Tucker KL, Hannan MT, Chen H, Cupples LA, Wilson PW, Kiel DP.
Jean Mayer US Department of Agriculture Human Nutrition Research Center on
Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA.

BACKGROUND: Osteoporosis and related fractures will be growing public health
problems as the population ages. It is therefore of great importance to
identify modifiable risk factors. OBJECTIVE: We investigated associations
between dietary components contributing to an alkaline environment (dietary
potassium, magnesium, and fruit and vegetables) and bone mineral density
(BMD) in elderly subjects. DESIGN: Dietary intake measures were associated
with both cross-sectional (baseline) and 4-y longitudinal change in BMD
among surviving members of the original cohort of the Framingham Heart
Study. Dietary and supplement intakes were assessed by food-frequency
questionnaire, and BMD was measured at 3 hip sites and 1 forearm site.
RESULTS: Greater potassium intake was significantly associated with greater
BMD at all 4 sites for men and at 3 sites for women (P 0.05). Magnesium
intake was associated with greater BMD at one hip site for both men and
women and in the forearm for men. Fruit and vegetable intake was associated
with BMD at 3 sites for men and 2 for women. Greater intakes of potassium
and magnesium were also each associated with less decline in BMD at 2 hip
sites, and greater fruit and vegetable intake was associated with less
decline at 1 hip site, in men. There were no significant associations
between baseline diet and subsequent bone loss in women. CONCLUSION: These
results support the hypothesis that alkaline-producing dietary components,
specifically, potassium, magnesium, and fruit and vegetables, contribute to
maintenance of BMD. PMID: 10197575

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

--
Juhana

Salty Dog wrote:
Juhana Harju wrote:
Matti Narkia wrote:
: A new survey
:
: Low carbohydrate diets in family practice: what can we learn from an
: internet-based support group
: Richard D Feinman, Mary C Vernon, Eric C Westman
: Nutrition Journal 2006, 5:26 (2 October 2006)
:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=170147 06&dopt=Abstract
: http://www.nutritionj.com/content/pdf/1475-2891-5-26.pdf (full text)
:
: which collected and analyzed data from low-carbers, suggests that the
: major change in eating patterns for dieters on low-carbohydrate diets
: has been the addition of large amounts of vegetables and salads to
: replace carbohydrates removed from their diet. Richard Feinman, PhD,
: principal author and a professor of biochemistry at SUNY Downstate
: Medical Center, notes that 54% of forum dieters increased salad greens
: and 34% increased green vegetables by at least double their usual
: consumption" in response to removing starches and sugars from their
: diets.

Yes, but they also eat less fruits. Also I have a concern that people in
low-carb diets would develop a low-grade chronic metabolic acidosis due to
high consumption of acid forming proteins and avoidance of those vegetables
and fruits which are high in potassium i.e. bananas and potatoes.

How many Asian nations include potatoes and bananas in their standard diet?

They eat less animal products. Hence their is less need to balance any
metabolic acidity.

It really is a nice and warming feeling to know that you are so
concerned about our (low-carbers') welfare.

Even low-carbers are human beings. ;-)

I was getting worried about
poor Andrew Chung was carrying the "concern for ASD members" load all by
himself. He does love us all you know. Maybe you and Andrew could
arrange alternate days to be concerned for us, you know, cut down on
bandwidth and all that sort of thing.

You should really consider changing your Internet operator if you have
so little bandwidth.

--
Juhana

Juhana Harju wrote:
::
:: Even low-carbers are human beings. ;-)
::

Not true.

Juhana Harju wrote:

Hi Juhana,

Lemme start by asking that you do not X-post this beyond ASDLC. I don't
read there and everyone else posting in this thread keeps it in ASDLC.
So, why bother SMN with our worries?

You wrote:

Are you sure? You might want to have a look at this study:

Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Apr;69(4):727-36.
Potassium, magnesium, and fruit and vegetable intakes are associated with
greater bone mineral density in elderly men and women.
Tucker KL, Hannan MT, Chen H, Cupples LA, Wilson PW, Kiel DP.
Jean Mayer US Department of Agriculture Human Nutrition Research Center on
Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA.

BACKGROUND: Osteoporosis and related fractures will be growing public health
problems as the population ages. It is therefore of great importance to
identify modifiable risk factors. OBJECTIVE: We investigated associations
between dietary components contributing to an alkaline environment (dietary
potassium, magnesium, and fruit and vegetables) and bone mineral density
(BMD) in elderly subjects. DESIGN: Dietary intake measures were associated
with both cross-sectional (baseline) and 4-y longitudinal change in BMD
among surviving members of the original cohort of the Framingham Heart
Study. Dietary and supplement intakes were assessed by food-frequency
questionnaire, and BMD was measured at 3 hip sites and 1 forearm site.
RESULTS: Greater potassium intake was significantly associated with greater
BMD at all 4 sites for men and at 3 sites for women (P 0.05). Magnesium
intake was associated with greater BMD at one hip site for both men and
women and in the forearm for men. Fruit and vegetable intake was associated
with BMD at 3 sites for men and 2 for women. Greater intakes of potassium
and magnesium were also each associated with less decline in BMD at 2 hip
sites, and greater fruit and vegetable intake was associated with less
decline at 1 hip site, in men. There were no significant associations
between baseline diet and subsequent bone loss in women. CONCLUSION: These
results support the hypothesis that alkaline-producing dietary components,
specifically, potassium, magnesium, and fruit and vegetables, contribute to
maintenance of BMD. PMID: 10197575

My LC diet (PPLP) has a WHOLE CHAPTER on magnesium and a whole other
chapter on potassium and calcium. As the designers of that diet put it,
if you are going to do the diet, you MUST take magnesium (they think
everyone should, since very few people get adequate amounts) and you
should also make sure you are getting your K as well. Since these
minerals are recommended for LC dieters by all the lit on LC diets I
have read (Atkins, PP, PPLP), I think your objection is not well
founded. In fact, it's more than I think. I know that, if your
objection to LC is based on Ph balance issues due to potassium and
magnesium depletion, your objection is on very shaky ground, vis-a-vis
the posters to this forum.

If you have other objections, I'm usre those can be addressed. But on
this one, your point is noted and already addressed by the authors of
the most popular LC diets.

Thank you for your concern.

-Hollywood

Juhana Harju wrote:
|| Salty Dog wrote:
||| Juhana Harju wrote:
|||| Matti Narkia wrote:
||||| A new survey
|||||
||||| Low carbohydrate diets in family practice: what can we
||||| learn from an
||||| internet-based support group
||||| Richard D Feinman, Mary C Vernon, Eric C Westman
||||| Nutrition Journal 2006, 5:26 (2 October 2006)
|||||
||||
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=170147 06&dopt=Abstract
||||| http://www.nutritionj.com/content/pdf/1475-2891-5-26.pdf
||||| (full text)
|||||
||||| which collected and analyzed data from low-carbers,
||||| suggests that the
||||| major change in eating patterns for dieters on
||||| low-carbohydrate diets
||||| has been the addition of large amounts of vegetables and
||||| salads to
||||| replace carbohydrates removed from their diet. Richard
||||| Feinman, PhD,
||||| principal author and a professor of biochemistry at SUNY
||||| Downstate
||||| Medical Center, notes that 54% of forum dieters increased
||||| salad greens
||||| and 34% increased green vegetables by at least double
||||| their usual
||||| consumption" in response to removing starches and sugars
||||| from their
||||| diets.
||||
|||| Yes, but they also eat less fruits. Also I have a concern
|||| that people in
|||| low-carb diets would develop a low-grade chronic metabolic
|||| acidosis due to
|||| high consumption of acid forming proteins and avoidance of
|||| those vegetables
|||| and fruits which are high in potassium i.e. bananas and
|||| potatoes.
|||
||| How many Asian nations include potatoes and bananas in their
||| standard diet?
||
|| They eat less animal products. Hence their is less need to
|| balance any
|| metabolic acidity.
||
||| It really is a nice and warming feeling to know that you are
||| so
||| concerned about our (low-carbers') welfare.
||
|| Even low-carbers are human beings. ;-)
||
||| I was getting worried about
||| poor Andrew Chung was carrying the "concern for ASD members"
||| load all by
||| himself. He does love us all you know. Maybe you and Andrew
||| could
||| arrange alternate days to be concerned for us, you know, cut
||| down on
||| bandwidth and all that sort of thing.
||
|| You should really consider changing your Internet operator if
|| you have
|| so little bandwidth.
||
|| --
|| Juhana

Sounds like a chung puppet

--
--
"If God didn't mean us to eat animals, why are they made of
meat?" -- Steven Wright

http://www.obsessionthemovie.com
http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/isacrime.html
http://home.swbell.net/bjtexas/SS/

Juhana Harju wrote:
Yes, but they also eat less fruits.

Disagreed. I eat a smaller variety of fruit, sticking primarily to
melons and berries, but I eat more fruit than before low-carbing
overall.

I don't have much of a sweet tooth, but on those occasions it kicks in,
it's much easier to reach for a slice of watermelon or a handful of
strawberries than to whip up a batch of sugar-free chocolate.

So fruits end up a more significant chunk of the diet than prior to
low-carb.


Also I have a concern that people in
low-carb diets would develop a low-grade chronic metabolic acidosis due to
high consumption of acid forming proteins

I've just never seen this. I'm not a big meat-eater, never have been.
I don't think I eat more meat now than prior to low-carbing.

I buy meat in bulk and stick it in the freezer. I thaw something out
2-3 times/week. This is pretty much what I did prior to low-carbing.

For me, low-carbing means more veggies, more fruit, more dairy, about
the same amount of meat, and no grains or sugar.


and avoidance of those vegetables
and fruits which are high in potassium i.e. bananas and potatoes.

Simply by switching the shaker on the table from a sodium salt to a
potassium salt more than solves that problem; I could eat bananas all
day and not get the potassium I sprinkle on a hard-boiled egg.

I've been doing low-carb for close to a decade now. I ain't dead.